The Beer Machine... No Fermenting

[jamesrichardboland]

Hi, I've never used a forum before so hope I'm in the right place?

I've been wanting to start homebrewing for a while now and thought the beer machine would be a great place to start (I was probably wrong!)

My first batch I left in the keg for 60 hours and nothing happened, I assumed I'd not washed the bleach out properly and killed the yeast, my second batch has been in for 24 hours and again nothing has happened!

I've moved it to a warmer location (24C from 20C) to see if this helps, but I've noticed people saying you should stir the mix, but the instructions highlight that you shouldnt?

I appreciate this is all pretty remedial to you guys, but I've never attempted anything like this before

Any help would be great thanks

 

[CB_in_Tokyo]

Hi, I know nothing of the beer machine but what I just read quickly on the web. I have to ask how do you know nothing happened? What are you supposed to see? If you have hydrometer or refractometer, you could take a reading and then check it again in a few days. With yeast you never know, sometimes it can appear nothing is happening, but the beer is actually fermenting. It can also take sometime to get going.

Sometimes with kit type beers, the yeast has been subjected to poor conditions and can be damaged. If you have a local home brew shop near by you may want to stop by and pick up some dry yeast (safale-04 or 05). If this batch hasn't done anything in the next 48 hours, try pitching a pack of the dry yeast. Just sprinkle it on.

Patience is key, and a one week turn around for beer is ridiculous!

Good luck and welcome to the obsession!

 

[jamesrichardboland]

Basically it said pressure should start to increase within 12-24 hours? It has a PSI guage, but it was still sat at '0' after 60 hours, I threw that one down the sink and some of the mix hadn't even dissolved? If my new batch doesnt do anything in the next 24 hours I'll get some more yeast Also, the ambiant temperature was 20C, but maybe the water was cooler and too cold? I've upped ambiant to 24C

Thankys for your swift reply!

 

[CB_in_Tokyo]

Don't rule out the possibility of a gauge fault either.

I think 20C is fine, but for troubleshooting purposes 24C won't hurt (but you might get some off flavours). Typically I would expect to see some activity in 12 to 24 hours, but not always. I have had batches take up to 72 hours to get going. I have also had batches where the yeast was bad and nothing happened after 72 hours where I just pitched new yeast, and the beer came out fine. Tossing down the sink is the last resort and usually isn't required.

Happy to help! These forums are an incredible resource. I have been lurking here for years and am happy to offer what little I know. Most importantlis patience and don't worry. Beer is incredibly hard to screw up!

 

[MichaelBrock]

I too know nothing about the Beer Machine. However, something to check is that everything is sealed up correctly. Even if fermentation is occuring (and it almost certainly is if the yeast is at all viable) pressure won't build unless everything is sealed up well. We see this often. People think that fermentation isn't happening because CO2 isn't bubbling through the air-lock on their fermenter but this is often just because the fermenter is leaking. I would definitely be stirring everything, really well, before fermentation begins. It is odd that the instructions would tell you otherwise. Once fermentation starts though, you do not want to stir as that would introduce oxygen and could cause oxidation in the beer (the yeast will use the oxygen that gets added in that initial stir).

 

[fartinmartin]

I dont know the beer machine either,
If you do pitch more yeast , rehydrate it first , the difference is amazing !!
A mix or a shake , ketting air get in is OK when the fermentation is going, the yeast will deal with it, indeed they need it, it wont oxidise the beer at that stage. Later on when fermentation is nearly done of course no oxygen.

 

[jamesrichardboland]

Thanks Guys!

Its deffinately air tight and guage works, i did a test before hand with tap water and injecting co2 to make sure

Ill deff wait and if nothing happens ill pop to brew shop and add more yeast!

If i have to try again (sigh), Ill mix the ingredients and hydrate yeast first, the first batch I tried the yeast just sat on top of the mix :\

 

[Clonefan94]

Strange that they tell you not to mix the extract in. I would think that would be key to distributing the sugars so the yeast could get to it. I would make sure and stir next time. Seems like a disaster to let all the DME just sit on the bottom without trying to mix it in some. Also, try using RO (pure) water from the store, you don't want any chlorine in your beer and since you don't boil like most homebrewing, you aren't driving any of that chlorine off. By the gallon, it's pretty cheap.

Also, don't use the bleach anymore. not that it doesn't work, but there are plenty of other good option out there. StarSan is the one I use, it's a no rinse sanitizer. The problem with bleach is that you have to rinse it like crazy to get rid of the bleach, so at that point, what was the use of sanitizing if you just rinsed regular tap water right over it.

I actually started brewing on a Beer Machine back in the mid 90s. The weakest link, imo was always the yeast. I ended up buying brewers yeast later on when I was using it and ended up with much better results.

I actually wish I still had the thing. It was a great idea, fermenting and serving vessel all in one. Since I've moved to all-grain brewing, I'd love to be able to use that now for 2.5 gallon test batches.

IMO, if you really want that thing to shine, look into building some of your own 2.5 gallon recipes and fermenting those in there. I think you'd be happy with the results. Basically all you have to do is take a 5 gallon recipe and half everything.

I took a lot of heat from "real" homebrewers when they saw I had the Beer Machine, but honestly, it was a great, easy way to get into the hobby. It's basically a fermenter and keg all in one. And when I learned enough to really control fermentation temperatures, the thing produced decent beer.

 

[jamesrichardboland]

Thanks Clonefan! Still nothing happening so going to give it a stir then buy some more yeast from homebrew store tomorrow. I've been looking at coopers mixs for next attempt? Thinking if i mix sugar, coopers and water in suggested amounts, then pour the amount that fits in beer machine and add half yeast? Yes Ill be wasting half, but still works out cheeper than BM mixes!! (unless I could store the extra mix in fridge to use later?)

Thanks for your post, was really helpful

 

[fartinmartin]

Please post the OG you had , the pitching temperature, and the temperature it's at now. It is very very rare that it's necessary to pitch again.
Oh and the SG it's at now !

 

[jCOSbrew]

Are you cooling the wort before pitching the yeast?
20C should be a great temp for ale yeast.

 

[jamesrichardboland]

you don't use hot water at all with this kit, it comes in a powder form that i mixed with asdas mineral water (not refrigerated)

 

[CB_in_Tokyo]

Thanks Clonefan! Still nothing happening so going to give it a stir then buy some more yeast from homebrew store tomorrow. I've been looking at coopers mixs for next attempt? Thinking if i mix sugar, coopers and water in suggested amounts, then pour the amount that fits in beer machine and add half yeast? Yes Ill be wasting half, but still works out cheeper than BM mixes!! (unless I could store the extra mix in fridge to use later?)

Thanks for your post, was really helpful

I would pitch the whole pack dry (no re hydrating). With dry yeast, it is all ready to go, no oxygen is needed. Usually you need to rehydrate dry yeast, because if you add directly to a liquid with sugar, you will lose about 50% of the cells, but since you are doing a 2.5 gal batch, I would just keep it simple and pitch the whole pack.

 

[Clonefan94]

Thanks Clonefan! Still nothing happening so going to give it a stir then buy some more yeast from homebrew store tomorrow. I've been looking at coopers mixs for next attempt? Thinking if i mix sugar, coopers and water in suggested amounts, then pour the amount that fits in beer machine and add half yeast? Yes Ill be wasting half, but still works out cheeper than BM mixes!! (unless I could store the extra mix in fridge to use later?)

Thanks for your post, was really helpful

I don't know a lot about the coopers kits, but I believe they are pre-hopped. Not sure I'd go that way for the beer machine. I really don't know much about storing Liquid extract, other than it's probably not a good idea. My guess is that 3lb can of liquid extract, would be a good fit for your 2.5 gallon batch, or pretty close in most recipes, but if it's pre-hopped, it's been pre-hopped for a 5 gallon batch, so you don't want that.

If I were you, I'd go into the recipe's section on here and look up some extract recipes. It would be easy to scale down, basically 1/2 everything and brew that up. That way you could get by with only buying what you need. Which is why I think looking into the recipes here might be a good way for you to go. That 2.5 gallon size batch could be easily brewed on your stove top as well and I think in the end, you'd be much happier with the results than splitting a pre-hopped can then trying to make up the gravity by adding sugar.

Either way you choose though, I would add Dry Malt Extract to make up your gravity rather than adding sugar.

 

[mredge73]

I had a Mr. Beer, it required heating to mix the liquid extract properly and drive off chlorine. It also included 1-step to sanitize and discouraged the use of bleach.
Sounds like this one is a pre-hopped cold mix and doesn't include any means of sanitation?

Keep the bleach in the laundry room, it doesn't belong in the kitchen. There are other great products that sanitize properly that do not poison you or damage your equipment.
For a cold mix you have to use pre-hopped malt extract, or HME. Boiling is not necessary or encouraged with HME, but some heat will help mix the ingredients more uniformly. Re-hydrate dry yeasties: use 1/2 cup of warm water, pour yeasties, cover, wait until foamy, if there is no foam the yeast quality is poor. Wait for your wort to cool to pitch temperature. Once cool, shake the crap out of the fermentor. Then shake it again. And again just for fun. Add yeast, place the fermentor in a dark temperature controlled closet. Forget about it for 2 weeks.
Fermentation should be done; hydrometer readings done before and after fermentation should confirm this. If you don't have a hydrometer, get one if you wish to continue this hobby long term.
Move to the conditioning/carbonation phase as recommended in your instructions.

 

[jamesrichardboland]

It looks like patches of foam are just starting to accumulate.... I think you maybe right and the water was too cold to mix, I'm just going to leave it in a 24C room and ignore it! After I'ts finished I'm off to buy a propper fermenting bin, some 5 litre kegs for 2nd fermentation so I can fit them in the fridge, siphon tube, heating band, air lock and bungs, hydrometer, syphon, (did i miss anything?) I'll probably just use the beer machine for 2nd fermentation also I WILL BE A BREWER YET!

apart from extract and 'brewers' sugar, I dont need any other ingredients do I?

 

[fartinmartin]

You will be starting into real brewing, why not do as most of us, that means no secondary ! It's not necessary, even more so if you are going to keg !
You need at least one more FV bucket than you have kegs, that way you will always have beer.

 

[Clonefan94]

It looks like patches of foam are just starting to accumulate.... I think you maybe right and the water was too cold to mix, I'm just going to leave it in a 24C room and ignore it! After I'ts finished I'm off to buy a propper fermenting bin, some 5 litre kegs for 2nd fermentation so I can fit them in the fridge, siphon tube, heating band, air lock and bungs, hydrometer, syphon, (did i miss anything?) I'll probably just use the beer machine for 2nd fermentation also I WILL BE A BREWER YET!

apart from extract and 'brewers' sugar, I dont need any other ingredients do I?

I wouldn't mess with all the secondary fermentation stuff. Honestly, the beer machine will work fine as it is, just with many brewing kits though, the instructions aren't as good as they should be. The only real problem with the beer machine, is that you can only have one beer at a time. And without actually fermenting in it, it's not going to retain enough CO2 to be able to easily carb it up again. If you want to go more advanced, welcome to the obsession. But i would use the beer machine as it is meant to be, feremting and also serving vessel.

Also, don't keep it at 24C, that's too hot, especially if that is ambient temp. you'll get a lot of off flavors. Do what you can to keep the ambient temps at least 18-20 max. you'll get a lot cleaner beer.

 

[fartinmartin]

As I said earlier, I don't know the beer machine, but, a couple of buckets for sure sounds the way to go !

 

[mredge73]

It looks like patches of foam are just starting to accumulate.... I think you maybe right and the water was too cold to mix, I'm just going to leave it in a 24C room and ignore it! After I'ts finished I'm off to buy a propper fermenting bin, some 5 litre kegs for 2nd fermentation so I can fit them in the fridge, siphon tube, heating band, air lock and bungs, hydrometer, syphon, (did i miss anything?) I'll probably just use the beer machine for 2nd fermentation also I WILL BE A BREWER YET!

apart from extract and 'brewers' sugar, I dont need any other ingredients do I?

The only sugar you need is for carbonation. If you are kegging then you don't need any at all. As far as ingredient go, start with pre-packaged kits until you understand every aspect of the brewing process. Once you understand the process you can start formulating your own recipes.

The only extra ingredients that you really need to have when doing extract batches is a few extra yeast packages and extra water. Use bottled water if you do not plan to boil. My advice is to always re hydrate dry yeast so you know for sure that you are starting with good active yeast. Happy yeast will foam up during the re hydration phase.

As far as equipment goes, the sky is the limit.
You have to be able to mash, boil, ferment, and package.
Extract brewers skip the mash step; many kits do a mini-mash however.
For the boil you need a SS stock pot sized appropriately for your batch size and a heat source sized appropriately for your stock pot. You also need a method to cool your wort after the boil.
Fermentation vessels vary in size, shape, and material. The most basic is food grade buckets, then glass or better bottles, then the holy grail of SS conicals.
Basic packaging involves bottling and naturally carbonating your brew. Once you are obsessed, Kegging is a natural next step.
You need a way to transfer wort from one step to the other and a lot of cleaning materials.
Hope that helps.

 

[jamesrichardboland]

I'm pleased to announce it finally started fermenting and building pressure, thank you all so much, this forum is fantastic... let the obsession commence!!!!

 

[Clonefan94]

I'm pleased to announce it finally started fermenting and building pressure, thank you all so much, this forum is fantastic... let the obsession commence!!!!

Awesome, try to keep those temps down and keep us informed of how it turns out.

 

[jamesrichardboland]

Tasted it today, tastes great , going to put in the fridge tomorrow to chill and carbonate with CO2 for another week.

Some one mentioned earlier you dont need to add sugar and its only for carbonation... what if the kit (coopers) says to add sugar? If I don't add it will it effect taste?

 

[CB_in_Tokyo]

Glad to hear it is working out for you.

Don't add the sugar. If you put sugar in it and put it in the fridge, it is likely the yeast won't ferment it out and you will end up with sweet beer.

How are you supposed to carb beer with that system?

 

[jamesrichardboland]

It holds the Co2 created during fermentation, which the beer absorbs, when you pit it in the fridge you can use Co2 bulbs to add more.

But do I need to add sugar for initial fermentation if the kit instructions say I have too...

(the one Ive used doesnt, but the kits I'm looking at (cheaper ones - coopers) say to add sugar)

 

[fartinmartin]

?? what am I missing, it was on tghe 15th you said it had just started, it cant be ready for the fridge already on the 20th? can it ?
I have seven fermenters full at the moment they are all at about three weeks, none of them are even close to cold crash yet.

 

[jamesrichardboland]

Beer Machine instructions say only needs 3-4 days fermenting... ive had it in for seven so far, the it says to put in fridge for 3-5 days

http://www.beermachine.com/

 

[mredge73]

Putting it in the fridge will slow/stop fermentation; you need to finish fermentation first.
If you don't have a hydrometer it is hard to tell if it is finished. You can taste it; if it still taste sweet then it isn't finished.
3-4 days of strong active fermentation is usually enough but you never really had vigorous fermentation, if you did you would know it and wouldn't have needed to come to this forum.
Leave it at least 2 weeks before you cold crash. This should insure that fermentation is complete.

Use this chart to determine your carbonation levels:
http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php
A carbonated Ale at medium carbonation levels, your gauge will need to read 10-12psi in the fridge.
This chart works for both force carbonating and natural carbonating.

So, my guess is the best way to carb with this system is to leave it at 65F and add whatever amount of extra sugar is needed to get it to 30psi.
Then put in the fridge, the pressure will drop down to 10psi as the liquid absorbs the C02 within a few days.

 

[CB_in_Tokyo]

It holds the Co2 created during fermentation, which the beer absorbs, when you pit it in the fridge you can use Co2 bulbs to add more.

But do I need to add sugar for initial fermentation if the kit instructions say I have too...

(the one Ive used doesnt, but the kits I'm looking at (cheaper ones - coopers) say to add sugar)

Table sugar will dry out your beer and provide higher alcohol, but won't add any flavour on its own. If the recipe calls for it at the initial stage, and you don't include it, then the final product will have less alcohol, and ironically likely a little sweeter.

 

[CB_in_Tokyo]

So, have you tasted this bad boy yet?