The AHA! moment, mash temp, and thin/dry beer

[mongoose33]

Had done a couple extract batches that were close to what I was shooting for, but providence sent me in the direction of all-grain--so that's what I'm doing.

I've brewed two all-grain batches, and both have been thin on mouthfeel as well as dry. Reading, reading, reading and I finally discovered what I think is the culprit--too low a mash temp. The first was about 151 degrees, the second one 149. They taste good, they're just not what I was trying to do.

So I've read that if you want more mouthfeel, less dryness, the mash temp should be higher. The AHA! moment emerges, and here I am--able to tie what I'm getting to how I'm doing it.

I think the recipe is good--it's a lot of Maris Otter, some regular 2-row, and some wheat and a little pilsen. Produced an OG of 1.063, in the range predicted. But it sure is a crisp beer. I want it to be maltier.

Based on what I'm doing, how much should I increase mash temp to get back to what I was hoping for, i.e., a malty beer? 155? 158? Is there a rule of thumb on this?

**********************

I have a 1.75 gallon keg, so I'm going to experiment with adding either lactose or maltodextrin to some of it and see if I can recover some of the mouthfeel I was looking for.

 

[Jwin]

There are a few ways to go at thus.
Increasing mash temp will/may raise the sweetness and maybe perceived maltiness of the final beer as well. Adding caramel/crystal malts will add sweetness.
Dextrin malts will raise the body and head retention without adding sweetness.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

if you want maltier add some c60 or Vienna or Aromatic, what yeast are you using also, a different yeast will make more mouthfeel

 

[m00ps]

Disregarding how important yeast strain selection is to this process, for anything with a decent body I would mash at 154-156 and include 15-20% specialty malts or a decent amount of flaked ingredients, or both

 

[mongoose33]

if you want maltier add some c60 or Vienna or Aromatic, what yeast are you using also, a different yeast will make more mouthfeel

Safale 04 is the yeast I used. Pitched dry from the packet, but it always took off by the next morning.

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

Disregarding how important yeast strain selection is to this process, for anything with a decent body I would mash at 154-156 and include 15-20% specialty malts or a decent amount of flaked ingredients, or both

what he said.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

that yeast wouldn't be the problem, you could add some carapils malt to add some body and head, raise the temp like above to make the beer less dry then add a malty flavoring grain to get your taste

 

[Jwin]

that yeast wouldn't be the problem, you could add some carapils malt to add some body and head, raise the temp like above to make the beer less dry then add a malty flavoring grain to get your taste

Just remember that it's a balancing act. To much dextine grain and to high a temp may get you too syrupy.

 

[madscientist451]

Perhaps put the specific recipe in and what style of beer you are going for.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

Just remember that it's a balancing act. To much dextine grain and to high a temp may get you too syrupy.

I use 1/2 pound per 5 gallons roughly, a pound is too much to me anyway

 

[Horseshoot]

I am curious as to just what style brew you are trying to achieve, I'd like to know that, and see your recipe.

Mike

 

[mongoose33]

I am curious as to just what style brew you are trying to achieve, I'd like to know that, and see your recipe.

Mike

I'll post that later today; I'd love to get some critiques of it.

 

[mattdee1]

I don't know if I'm in the minority or what, but I've found this adjust-body-with-mash-temp business to be pretty meaningless in practice. To be clear, I'm not saying that mash temperature doesn't matter, I'm simply saying that the difference between, say, 151 and 156 doesn't really matter.

I think if you have good ingredients, a good recipe, and even a half decent process, you will get body and mouthfeel that suit the resulting beer, even if your mash temp is a few ticks high or low from what is supposedly ideal.

 

[flhb]

I don't know if I'm in the minority or what, but I've found this adjust-body-with-mash-temp business to be pretty meaningless in practice. To be clear, I'm not saying that mash temperature doesn't matter, I'm simply saying that the difference between, say, 151 and 156 doesn't really matter.

I think if you have good ingredients, a good recipe, and even a half decent process, you will get body and mouthfeel that suit the resulting beer, even if your mash temp is a few ticks high or low from what is supposedly ideal.

I agree with mattdee, despite the long held theory that a less fermentable wort produces a thicker mouthfeel, I don't think that it actually does. It will make a less fermentable wort, that's for sure - I just don't think that it will have a huge impact on the perception of the final product.

Here's an article from Brulosophy on the subject:

http://brulosophy.com/2015/10/12/the-mash-high-vs-low-temperature-exbeeriment-results/

I am eagerly awaiting a followup exbmt that helps validate this one as I am skeptical to take this single one as the final word on the subject.

Sorry that I don't have an answer for you, some other people have provided good advice about adding specialty grains, etc.

 

[bbohanon]

I agree with mattdee, despite the long held theory that a less fermentable wort produces a thicker mouthfeel, I don't think that it actually does. It will make a less fermentable wort, that's for sure - I just don't think that it will have a huge impact on the perception of the final product.

Here's an article from Brulosophy on the subject:

http://brulosophy.com/2015/10/12/the-mash-high-vs-low-temperature-exbeeriment-results/

I am eagerly awaiting a followup exbmt that helps validate this one as I am skeptical to take this single one as the final word on the subject.

Sorry that I don't have an answer for you, some other people have provided good advice about adding specialty grains, etc.

Mashing high for less fermentable wort does not give a thicker mouth feel in my opinion..all it does is make the beer sweeter and a bit fuller on the taste which is usually perceived to some as better mouth feel. Sweetness in a beer will do that to folks.
I usually mash all of my stouts and porters a bit higher (157-158'ish) than I mash my IPA/Blondes/Ambers (149-152'ish) as I want that sweeter fuller taste in those darker beers. For mouth feel and when I say mouth feel, I mean that "creamyness" that is really a thicker mouth feel profile, toss some flaked oats/barley or some carapils even into your recipe. Your beer will thank you.

You want to amp it up, mash higher on a stout or porter WITH the addition of some flaked oats or barley in the recipe..Then you get a true gem of a beer that will rock socks. I have ruined co-workers and friends from drinking any other chocolate stout other than my own that I do this technique with.

 

[TheHopfather]

I've been chasing mouthfeel on my last couple of IPA's. I think chloride, mash pH and yeast play a major roll. Here is an interesting article on the subject if anyone is interested;

http://scottjanish.com/chasing-mouthfeel-softness/

 

[mongoose33]

I am curious as to just what style brew you are trying to achieve, I'd like to know that, and see your recipe.

Mike

OK, here we go.

I am trying to replicate an extract brew that had:

3.3 lbs. LME Maris Otter
1.0 lbs. Wheat DME
3.0 lbs Light DME

Steeping grains of:

0.5 lbs Maris Otter Malt
0.25 lbs Pilsen Malt
0.25 lbs Wheat Malt

This produced a nice full mouth feel, tending toward sweet but not too much. I ended up w/ a FG of 1.065. You might note that's a lot of DME, the original recipe had only 1 lb. but in consultation w/ the LHBS I went to 3 lbs. The original recipe is an English Mild Bitter, but to get the ABV up I added the extra 2 lbs of DME.

It was close to what I was trying to create. So along the way, I thought I'd try to reproduce it with all-grain, using this grain bill:

6.5 lbs Maris Otter Malt
2 lbs Wheat Malt
3 lbs 2-row Malt
.25 lbs Pilsen Malt

I produced a FG with this of 1.063, which I thought was pretty good. Except I mashed at...151 as I recall, and it's thin and fairly dry. I should note too that I used the same hop schedule for both the original extract brew and the all grain brew.


So the question in my mind is do I replace some of that with specialty grains as suggested above, mash at a higher temp like 156 or maybe 158, add something else, or a combination of the three?

What's kind of baffling me is that I ended up with virtually the same OG in both brews, the grain bill would seem to have been close to the extract, but the flavor and dryness are so different.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

try this I would forget the pilsner, its not really needed

Original Gravity: 1.062
Final Gravity: 1.015
ABV (standard): 6.08%
IBU (tinseth): 0
SRM (morey): 7.71

FERMENTABLES:
6.5 lb - United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale (53.1%)
2 lb - American - White Wheat (16.3%)
3 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (24.5%)
0.5 lb - American - Caramel / Crystal 60L (4.1%)
0.25 lb - American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt) (2%)

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

the site double posted weird

 

[mongoose33]

try this I would forget the pilsner, its not really needed

Original Gravity: 1.062
Final Gravity: 1.015
ABV (standard): 6.08%
IBU (tinseth): 0
SRM (morey): 7.71

FERMENTABLES:
6.5 lb - United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale (53.1%)
2 lb - American - White Wheat (16.3%)
3 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (24.5%)
0.5 lb - American - Caramel / Crystal 60L (4.1%)
0.25 lb - American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt) (2%)

If you were brewing this what would you aim for w/r/t mash temperature? Maybe 156?


Also, I can find carapils, but I'm not 100 percent sure about Caramel / Crystal 60L. Is this it or equivalent:

https://www.morebeer.com/products/briess-crystal-60l.html

or this:

http://www.ritebrew.com/product-p/805372.htm

I really appreciate the help!

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

yes the 60 is the same and I would shoot for 152 if it were me

 

[Jwin]

If you want malty, replace the 2 row with more maris otter or maybe vienna.

 

[pjj2ba]

Hops? Hop flavor and aroma can easily overpower malty flavors. Try backing off on the flavor and aroma hops. I have two lagers on tap now, with fairy similar recipes, both with ~20% corn. You can readily detect the corn in the one, and it is much less evident in the other, the one with 3X as much flavor and aroma hops.

When I want malty, my go to grains are munich, vienna, aromatic, biscuit, victory, etc NOT crystal malts - those are for sweetness. And of course backing off on the hops

 

[Chrisbrewbeers]

I usually have had the problem that I'm busy and would let my mash go longer than 1 hour and I never had over 1.008 FG, most commonly 1.004. The last few times I made effort to start batch sparge with hot enough water at 60 min and last was 1.013 mashed at 150. It has so many hops that might be hard to tell but I think mashing longer might make mash temp less effective for desired purpose.