The $3.41 Challenge - Lobuck

[Sir Humpsalot]

This hits the style in the middle.
I thought if I went for a high AA hop I could use less.

What would the cost be?

Done

LMAO!!!!


I do not want to price everything for everybody. PLEASE do it yourself! But, as an example...

I found American 2 row, from three major suppliers, for between $0.99 and $1.00 per pound. So that cost is $0.99 per pound. You have 2.3Kg, so that's $5.00

I found three sites with British Crystal 50-60L. They sold for $1.40, $1.50, and $1.50 per pound. That's a $1.47/lb average. You need a half a kilo, or 1.104 pounds, so that works out to $1.62

Rice Syrup goes for between $4.99 and $5.00 a pound. So you need $2.76

Corn Sugar is a buck a pound in bulk so that's $0.55.

Now, hops will be priced by the pound. For NorthernBrewer hops, I found them for $10.90, $12.50, and $9.00. That comes out to $10.80 per pound. Your recipe calls for 3 ounces, so that's $2.03.

Your total comes to: $11.96


Of course, if you shop around other commonly known websites, you may be able to save a couple pennies here or there by finding a cheaper price. So long as the prices you find are "in the ballpark" of everyone else's, I'm not going to worry too much. On the one hand, I don't intend to let people "bargain shop" to get more ingredients. On the other hand, I don't want people to worry about it too much either. If your estimated value seems reasonable, nobody is likely to question it.

 

[Orfy]

Your total comes to: $11.96

comes to $2.39

Here's what I priced at morebeer.com I changed my recipe a little but kept it in style.

5lbs Bulk 2 row @ $29.95/50lbs = $3.00
1oz crystal @ $1.35/lbs = $0.03
0.5lb corn sugar @ $1.60/lbs = $0.80
0.5lb rice extract @ $3.95/lbs = $1.48
0.4oz Hops @$5.50/4oz = $0.55
1 pack Yeast @ $1.60/pack (/3) = $0.55

Total for 5 gallon = 3+.3+.8+1.48+.55+.55 = $6.68

or $1.34 a gallon.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

I want to be on the competition committee! I won't judge because I can't stand that yellow pee water crap, but I'm definately in for other adjudication responsibilities.

The point is to make the best beer you can within the cost constraints, not necessarily to replicate pee water crap.

Anyway, I welcome you to the rules committee and the competition committee! So far, we have this for rules:

THE RULES
1. No close-out specials, out-of-date ingredients, etc.

2. Nothing can be used "for free" from your own garden

3. You can buy your ingredients from ANY supplier. The actual price paid is irrelevant. For purposes of judging, your ingredient price is based upon the lowest price charged by any one of the following commonly-known online vendors: northernbrewer, austinhomebrew, morebeer.com. You are responsible for furnishing this information. Again, sale prices, special prices, and close-outs, do NOT count.

4. Because water quality varies significantly, you may use any water costing less than $0.99 per gallon without adding it to your cost.

5. For purposes of this contest, taxes and shipping are EXCLUDED from the price.

6. For Extract Brewers, malt will be priced on the assumption that you are purchasing an adequate amount for a 25 gallon batch. For All-Grain brewers, malt will be priced on the assumption that you are buying a 55lb bag. For all brewers, hops will be priced by the pound.

7. If any non-brewing adjunct is used, peapod.com will be used to determine the cost of that adjunct. If unavailable at peapod, the decision of the judges is final.

8. The cost of the yeast shall be computed as per rule #3 except that, once averaged, the cost of the yeast will be divided by three to account for the possibility of repitching the yeast cake a time or two.

9. There is an ABSOLUTE prohibition on the addition of alcohol such as vodka or everclear to increase the alcohol content. That means no "bourbon stouts" folks!

Anything I'm forgetting?

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

And this for judging criteria:

Each category, rate from 1 to 5 points:

1. How beer-like does it taste?
(Obviously, it's got to taste like beer)

2. Does it use all of the traditional beer ingredients in a discernable quantity?
(Got hops, malt, yeast, and water?)

3. How close does it come to tasting like ANY commercial beer?
(so it's sort of a clone-contest, since it's got to taste like SOME sort of beer. It does NOT have to taste like BMC! It can taste like a Belgian, if you can swing it! This is just a test of whether you were able to mimic a particular style without spending big bucks)

4. Then add points based on the percentage of ABV
Under 3.5%ABV: 2 point deduction
3.5-4.5%: 2 point
4.6%ABV or more: 6 points

5. Then assign 1 to 15 points on general quality
(how "tasty" is it?)
Since we aren't using style guidelines, obviously it wouldn't be fair to rate the beers on things such as mouthfeel, or flavor, clarity, or any other traditional metric. We've just got to go by which one is the "tastiest".

6. All - Grain
Under $1.00 = +8 points
$1.01 - $1.09 = +6 points
$1.10 - $1.19 = +4 points
$1.20 - $1.35 = +2 points
$1.36 and up = minus three points for every seven cents over- always to be rounded UP. (so $1.37 is a 3 point deduction).

Extract:
Under $1.50 = +8 points
$1.51 - $1.65 = +6 points
$1.66 - $1.80 = +4 points
$1.81 - $2.07 = +2 points
$2.08 and up = minus three points for every fifteen cents over- always to be rounded up. (so $2.09 through $2.23 is a 3 point deduction).



Add up the maximum possible points and set it on a scale from 0 to 100.

VERY IMPORTANT: Because I don't have confidence in my ability to create a fair judging system, the above judging sheet (or whichever one is ultimately used by the intrepid souls volunteering their palates), will be for SUBJECTIVE purposes! It is intended to help capture the "spirit" of the competition, but may not tell the whole story as to why one particular beer was ultimately chosen as the winner.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

IMHO, you're on. I just compared extract vs grain prices at www.morebeer.com, and that seems reasonable. Extract brewers are going to spend roughly 70% of their budget on extract, where AG brewers will easily spend less than 50% of it on grain.

I was thinking about having two different "categories" for AG and Extract, not really putting them head-to-head, but if we get the relative amounts right, then I suppose we could do this as an open challenge for both AG and Extract brewers.

I should probably drop it to what? $1.35 for all grainers? Part of the idea is to almost FORCE people to use something besides 100% malt.

Using Orfy's recipe as a "test", it seems like his recipe ought to be positively mediocre! That tells me that his $1.34 cost per gallon ought to be right around the right range for AG brewers.

 

[Orfy]

wohoo. That means my **** beer recipe is a goer at $1.34:rockin:
But seeing how I'm over here and your over there then I'll just sit and watch.
If you sell my recipe to BMC I want half the fee.

It''' be intresting to see what come out of this. I'm all for brewing cheap beer as long as it's not "**** beer"

I'm off for a Hob Goblin.

 

[Orfy]

I'd say $1.35 is fine as long as you let us use the cheapest bulk price available via the main suppliers. i.e. more beer etc. 'cause that's how a lot of us keep our prices down.

For comparison moor beer light "****" beer kit costs $3.20 per gallon.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

I'd say $1.35 is fine as long as you let us use the cheapest bulk price available via the main suppliers. i.e. more beer etc. 'cause that's how allot of us keep our prices down.

For comparison moor beer light "****" beer kit costs $3.20 per gallon.

Yes. Bulk prices will be fine for A.G. brewers. I'm sticking with the "assume you're brewing 25 gallons when pricing stuff" limit for Extract brewers.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Hey Orfy! Did I remember to include the price of your yeast?

 

[Orfy]

I did.

1 pack Yeast @ $1.60/pack (/3) = $0.55

I rounded up.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Upon further consideration, it's a real PITA to price stuff at multiple vendors. So here's the updated rule #3...

3. You can buy your ingredients from ANY supplier. The actual price paid is irrelevant. For purposes of judging, your ingredient price is based upon the lowest price charged by any one of the following commonly-known online vendors: northernbrewer, austinhomebrew, morebeer.com. You are responsible for furnishing this information. Again, sale prices, special prices, and close-outs, do NOT count.

 

[Orfy]

When the rules etc are finalised, why not launch the competition in a fresh thread in a "General" section of the forum.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

When the rules etc are finalised, why not launch the competition in a fresh thread in a "General" section of the forum.

That's what I intend to do. At this point, even the thread's title is misleading. LOL

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I was thinking about having two different "categories" for AG and Extract, not really putting them head-to-head, but if we get the relative amounts right, then I suppose we could do this as an open challenge for both AG and Extract brewers.

I should probably drop it to what? $1.35 for all grainers? Part of the idea is to almost FORCE people to use something besides 100% malt.

Using Orfy's recipe as a "test", it seems like his recipe ought to be positively mediocre! That tells me that his $1.34 cost per gallon ought to be right around the right range for AG brewers.

$1.35 is certainly going to be a challenge!

My logic was based on some quick price/recipe comparison using prices from More Beer and calculations from BeerSmith for a simple pale ale recipe.

If extract brewers spend 70% of a $3.41/gallon budget on extract, they're left with about $1.00/gallon to spend on hops, yeast, and adjuncts.

By contrast, if AG brewers spend 50% of a $1.50/gallon budget on grain, they're left with $0.75/gallon for other ingredients. I think it's possible to get down to as little as 30% of the budget for grain, leaving just over $1.00/gallon for the rest of the recipe, making it a pretty fair competition.

However, if you're compelled to drop it all the way to $1.35, that's gonna be a REALLY tight budget! I'm not entirely disagreeing with you - orfy already proved it can be done - I just wanted to show you the rest of my logic.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Yuri. You missed my most recent proposal. At least though you're definitely making me think about this.

My most recent proposal was....

$1.35/gallon for AG Brewers
and
$2.01/gallon for extract brewers.

LME costs $2-$3 per pound. Grain costs a dollar per pound. To get the same fermentables that you get from a pound of LME, you'll need about 1.25 pounds of grain.

The typical beer needs at least about .75lbs of fermentables per gallon in order to really be beer. That's .75lbs times $2.25 per pound for LME equals $1.68 per pound. That leaves $0.33 per gallon for hops, yeast, and adjuncts.

For the typical AG recipe that's comparable to about .95 pounds of grain. That's about $0.98 per gallon. That leaves $0.37 for hops, yeast, and adjuncts.

 

[jezter6]

$1.35 is certainly going to be a challenge!

My logic was based on some quick price/recipe comparison using prices from More Beer and calculations from BeerSmith for a simple pale ale recipe.

If extract brewers spend 70% of a $3.41/gallon budget on extract, they're left with about $1.00/gallon to spend on hops, yeast, and adjuncts.

By contrast, if AG brewers spend 50% of a $1.50/gallon budget on grain, they're left with $0.75/gallon for other ingredients. I think it's possible to get down to as little as 30% of the budget for grain, leaving just over $1.00/gallon for the rest of the recipe, making it a pretty fair competition.

However, if you're compelled to drop it all the way to $1.35, that's gonna be a REALLY tight budget! I'm not entirely disagreeing with you - orfy already proved it can be done - I just wanted to show you the rest of my logic.

I think $1.35 was for max points, not the hard limit. I agree that the upper limit should be higher (giving a chance to actually come up with a GOOD recipe, not just a cheap recipe). The original goal was to make a decent (read: DRINKABLE) beer cheaper than you can buy it, not who can make the cheapest recipe to meet all the minimum standards. I'm sure someone can come up with something at less than $1.35, but the question of 'does it actually taste like beer' still remains, even at a $1.35 recipe.

 

[jezter6]

I know it's a pain in the ass, but I think (to be fair to all contestants) that we get a 'master' price list together of say - 20 grains, 15 hops, and 10 yeasts - and let them battle it out.

My concern in the end is this:
Yuri submits his $1.72/gal recipe based on his findings of ingredients.
Jezter6 submits his $1.65/gal recipe based on HIS findings of ingredients.
Jezter6 and Yuri use some of the same ingredients that Jezter6 found cheaper. In reality, if we use the cheapest cost found, Yuri's comes in at $1.64, and tastes better to boot, but we score him at $1.72, missing the crucial bonus points to kick jezter6's behind.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Yuri. You missed my most recent proposal. At least though you're definitely making me think about this.

My most recent proposal was....

$1.35/gallon for AG Brewers
and
$2.01/gallon for extract brewers.

We're thinking along the same lines, and this proposal sounds pretty good - must've been speed reading a little too fast to have missed it the first time. I like this challenge! Perhaps I shouldn't be trying to help you with the rules...I just realized that I'm not going to be able to compete! I'll be out of town for the next few months. I'll try and keep track of the competition while I'm gone. Good luck!

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I know it's a pain in the ass, but I think (to be fair to all contestants) that we get a 'master' price list together of say - 20 grains, 15 hops, and 10 yeasts - and let them battle it out.

Actually, Toot already accounted for this by suggesting that we can use any ingredients, and the judging will be based on the lowest advertised price from More Beer, AHB, and Northern Brewer (perhaps we could expand this list...).

Besides, he already suggested that he'd like to see fermentables other than malt - it'll be hard to account for all of those in a "master list."

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

I think $1.35 was for max points, not the hard limit. I agree that the upper limit should be higher (giving a chance to actually come up with a GOOD recipe, not just a cheap recipe). The original goal was to make a decent (read: DRINKABLE) beer cheaper than you can buy it, not who can make the cheapest recipe to meet all the minimum standards. I'm sure someone can come up with something at less than $1.35, but the question of 'does it actually taste like beer' still remains, even at a $1.35 recipe.

The thing is... nobody except the people at BMC really have any clue just how cheaply beer can be made! Sure, we all can find plenty of articles about 12%ABV barleywines- we can all figure out how to make those, but what about going the other way? When subtleties of flavor take on added importance- when you are trying to justify every penny per gallon, what can you do?

Maybe people will experiment with invert sugar, table sugar, fruit sugars, brown sugar, etc. Maybe we one or two out of ten people will have a really tasty light recipe that costs next to nothing. Maybe they will all suck.

Perhaps the $1.35 figure is off. But my goal is to make it a difficult challenge, but one which a few people can actually attain. Maybe we'll sample 10 beers and decide that all but two of them really suck. If that happens, we'll "publish" those recipes here on HBT and maybe next year people will improve those recipes.

Or maybe ALL the recipes will suck, in which case we'll try again, but raise the limits by a dime or a quarter or something. But before we just raise the limits for fear of failure, let's give motivated brewers a chance at succeeding.

 

[jezter6]

Agreed. I think maybe we need to look at $2/2.50 for the 'max' for AG/extract.

Let people go as far under as they dare, but if it sucks, at $1.35, you can go back and put 10c/gal extra ingredients to try and bring it to drinkable without going over the limit.

 

[Passload]

Is this going to be an ale or a lager? Most newbies and myself do not have the lagering capability.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Is this going to be an ale or a lager? Most newbies and myself do not have the lagering capability.

It can be anything you want. I'll post a complete description once we get all the rules squared away (I'm emailing back and forth with jezter6 to finalize them).

It definitely does NOT have to be a lager. It doesn't even have to be in the American style. If you can create a 12%ABV barleywine for $1.35 per gallon, then gawddamn!, I want to shake your hand! It's open to all styles and they will all be judged head-to-head. No style charts or anything. Just who can make a tasty beer without breaking the bank?

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Agreed. I think maybe we need to look at $2/2.50 for the 'max' for AG/extract.

Let people go as far under as they dare, but if it sucks, at $1.35, you can go back and put 10c/gal extra ingredients to try and bring it to drinkable without going over the limit.

I think that's a very reasonable idea.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

You know? For everybody who shares their brew with a lot of other people... this is a GREAT way to have enough for everybody else without breaking the bank.

 

[jezter6]

Figured I would post this since I was having fun. This is 100% IN STYLE for an American Pale Ale.

Type: All Grain
Date: 12/27/2006
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Brewer:
Boil Size: 6.82 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Brew Pot (15 Gal) and Igloo/Gott Cooler (10 Gal)
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
5.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 58.8 %
1.50 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 17.6 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 11.8 %
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50%] (60 min) Hops 21.9 IBU
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50%] (15 min) Hops 10.9 IBU
0.50 lb Brown Sugar, Dark (50.0 SRM) Sugar 5.9 %
0.50 lb Corn Syrup (1.0 SRM) Sugar 5.9 %
1 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast-Ale



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.046 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.046 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.011 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.011 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.6 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 4.6 %
Bitterness: 32.8 IBU Calories: 43 cal/pint
Est Color: 12.4 SRM Color: Color



Notes

2row - 0.49/lb - morebeer.com = $2.45
Munich - 0.56/lb - morebeer.com = $0.85
Crystal 60 - 0.64/lb - morebeer.com = $0.64
Dark Brown Sugar - 0.05/oz - peapod = $0.40
Corn Syrup - 0.19/oz - peapod - $1.52
Gain Total = $5.86
2oz Cascade - $0.75/oz - Freshops.com - $1.50
Nottingham Yeast - $1.60/ea - morebeer = $0.53
Total = $7.89 = $1.58/gal

 

[MattD]

Sounds like fun guys. I might give this a shot, even though I'm a total newb. I'm just getting ready to do an AG set up, so we'll see how it comes out! Has anyone thought of a timeline for this beast yet?

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Sounds like fun guys. I might give this a shot, even though I'm a total newb. I'm just getting ready to do an AG set up, so we'll see how it comes out! Has anyone thought of a timeline for this beast yet?

Meh.. I dunno. I want to give people plenty of time. Entries certainly won't be due before March 1. Maybe give people a little more time in case they want to do an extended lager and can't get on it right away..

 

[jezter6]

I think March 1 is a perfectly good time. Gives people a chance to try some small brews out before they have to send in a competition beer (if going a quick ale method).

Hell, I'd consider doing 2-3 small 3gal batches to perfect the recipe.

Even then, March 1 is only (realistically) 2 months away. Considering the 1-2-3, you only get a few weeks of brewing before you have to mail something in. April 1 would be a great dedline for this kind of funny competition.

 

[brewman !]

What is BMC ?