Thank the Ethanol Hoax for higher malt prices

[srm775]

I don't understand where the potential is. It uses more fuel to produce than it makes (net fuel loss for each gallon), it makes more pollution, it is less efficient which means you must use more to go the same distance, it wastes tons of water (literally), and it is driving up the prices of food and beer.

I think the point of the OP is that ethanol production is in it's infancy. As it matures, breakthroughs will happen and it will become a much more efficient fuel to produce. Just like when oil, coal and natural gas were in their infancies, it took much more to labor/fuel to produce a gal/pound that was actually extracted. Given time for infrastructure and advancements in production, ethanol could be a very viable source.

Ethanol, however, is not at all responsible for the higher prices in food and/or beer. You want to blame something, blame the soaring costs of oil. Ethanol production last year was the same as it's been in the past five years. It's the costs to produce, package (in plastic made from oil) and ship (using gas and diesel) food products that is driving up the costs of food. Another big reason for the skyrocketing costs of food is the declining value of the dollar. Products imported are no longer as cheap as they used to be and those costs are passed on to the consumer.

 

[MikeFlynn74]

You want to blame something, blame the soaring costs of oil.

Or the fact that the dollar is worthless right now

 

[wihophead]

http://www.journaltimes.com/articles/2008/03/25/local_news/doc47e80ebdc06fb279079406.txt

 

[uuurang]

There's something else wrong with this picture. If Congress and President Bush say we need less reliance on oil and greater use of renewable fuels, then why would Congress impose a stiff tariff, 54 cents a gallon, on ethanol from Brazil? Brazilian ethanol, by the way, is produced from sugar cane and is far more energy efficient, cleaner and cheaper to produce.

Aren't we just trying to play catch up with Brazil? They have had great success, according to news articles I've read in the past, using cane sugar and or beet(?), not positive about the beet sugar.

Is regular sugar that much more efficient than corn sugar?

 

[MikeFlynn74]

Is regular sugar that much more efficient than corn sugar?

The sugar production from Cane is 50X that of corn.

 

[zoebisch01]

Ethanol is a joke if we seriously want to look at using Corn. Let me say something about Corn. Corn is ONE OF THE MOST INEFFICIENT CROPS. If they really want to do something about it, grow Sugar Beets. The reason Brazil is so successful is (as has been stated), Sugar Cane is a much more viable source for Ethanol AND more importantly, that is an abundant crop there. They didn't have to retool to grow Sugar Cane. Here, I think the justification for using Corn is that we have all the machinery and historically have grown Corn. Problem is, like I mention...Corn is one of the worst things to grow. It should be a luxury crop.

 

[Philip1993]

And I can't stand the profits they're turning right now too!

<sarcasm>
Yea, that 10.9% profit margin is absurd. Who do they think they are, WalMart!!

Just think about it; It we didn't already have the government taking 41% of their earnings, they would be making as much money as McDonalds!

Greedy bast***s. If they wanna go make 10.9%, they should just shut down their refineries and go invest their money in the stock market like the rest of us.

</sarcasm>

 

[pjj2ba]

I went to a seminar about a month ago from a Brazilian scientist doing a short sabbatical here. He is heavily involved in the sugar cane to ethanol research. Brazil started their project in the mid 80's. At that time it was heavily subsidized. They slowly weaned off the subsidy in the late 90's and there was a price jump and some black years, but now the with some help from even better conversion efficiencies the industry in Brazil is doing a great job and is no longer in any need of price supports.

Our society is too interested in magic bullets and instant satisfaction. These kinds of things take time and it might not be pretty in the mean time.

 

[jdoiv]

Two words for you:

Bio-diesel Hybrids


renewable and most efficient use of energy.

 

[zoebisch01]

I went to a seminar about a month ago from a Brazilian scientist doing a short sabbatical here. He is heavily involved in the sugar cane to ethanol research. Brazil started their project in the mid 80's. At that time it was heavily subsidized. They slowly weaned off the subsidy in the late 90's and there was a price jump and some black years, but now the with some help from even better conversion efficiencies the industry in Brazil is doing a great job and is no longer in any need of price supports.

Our society is too interested in magic bullets and instant satisfaction. These kinds of things take time and it might not be pretty in the mean time.

Good info. You know, that's the problem here (aside from the magic bullet statement) is that we never seem to wean ourselves from subsidies...could be just my perception though. It makes sense with the time frame. Migrations and corrections to an economy/infrastructure can take a long time. The article I was reading the other day about the world food shortage issues stated it will probably take a decade to correct.

 

[MikeFlynn74]

<sarcasm>
Yea, that 10.9% profit margin is absurd. Who do they think they are, WalMart!!

Just think about it; It we didn't already have the government taking 41% of their earnings, they would be making as much money as McDonalds!

Greedy bast***s. If they wanna go make 10.9%, they should just shut down their refineries and go invest their money in the stock market like the rest of us.

</sarcasm>

Looks like you drank the KoolAid.

Profit margins % are not impressive but up 50% from what they were while spending has gone down. To total revenue is way up.

They also can reduce what looks like profit by creative expenditures and buying back stocks as well. So hey dont let facts tell the whole story

 

[Junebug]

I read somewhere that if every single acre of arable land in the U.S. was used to grow corn for ethanol, it would only address 20% of our fuel needs. Pretty inefficient.

 

[PeteOz77]

I was VERY surprised when I went home to Minnesota last year and one of my old mates told me that he had installed a CORN FURNACE. I said "You mean you burn corn straight out of the field?" He said "yeah! It's great and it's CHEAP to run!"

I replied with.. "But man... corn is FOOD. There are millions of people all over the world that are starving, and you are burning FOOD in your furnace to keep warm?" He replies with "Ah, F**K em. It's not MY fault they don't have any food"

I was less than impressed

 

[Beerthoven]

Most depressing thread ever. We are all doomed.

 

[srm775]

I replied with.. "But man... corn is FOOD. There are millions of people all over the world that are starving, and you are burning FOOD in your furnace to keep warm?" He replies with "Ah, F**K em. It's not MY fault they don't have any food"
I was less than impressed

That's awesome.

 

[srm775]

<sarcasm>
Yea, that 10.9% profit margin is absurd. Who do they think they are, WalMart!!

Just think about it; It we didn't already have the government taking 41% of their earnings, they would be making as much money as McDonalds!

Greedy bast***s. If they wanna go make 10.9%, they should just shut down their refineries and go invest their money in the stock market like the rest of us.

</sarcasm>

Well, when you post a 10 Billion (that's with a "b") QUARTERLY (that's only three f'in months) profit, then something isn't adding up.

 

[McKBrew]

Well, when you post a 10 Billion (that's with a "b") QUARTERLY (that's only three f'in months) profit, then something isn't adding up.

It adds up everytime I stick that thing it my gas tank and pull the lever, while at the same time feeling like an unseen force is sticking something up me.

 

[blacklab]

The interesting thing is that the people behind the eco movement are all about the ethanol, but it's really just switching the burden from fossil fuels to other expendable resources, hence Ed's comments in the OP about the amount of water/electricity/etc. needed to convert the corn to useable fuel.

If we want power which does not drain the resources of our planet, we need to look OUTSIDE of our planet. It's a closed f'ing system, people! The laws of thermodynamics(I think) say it is impossible to extract energy from a material without destroying that material! Energy within a closed system cannot be created or destroyed, only converted. Corn is just another vehicle for the net amount of energy available on Earth. How about solar power? The sun is free!

I'm not saying that solar is the end all solution, but it seems even partial utilization would lighten the burden on our constrained resources.

 

[PeteOz77]

How about solar power? The sun is free!

I'm not saying that solar is the end all solution, but it seems even partial utilization would lighten the burden on our constrained resources.

But what if I want to drive my car at night? /s

 

[blacklab]

But what if I want to drive my car at night? /s

Then it would be powered by fossil fuels at night, and the sun(somehow) during the day. 50% savings.

Although I think you knew that?

 

[evanmars]

Then it would be powered by fossil fuels at night, and the sun(somehow) during the day. 50% savings.

Although I think you knew that?

Yeah, no chance of energy storage for night time for a 100% savings.

 

[Evan!]

I got 100 lbs of Breiss malt today for a touch under a hundred bucks. LHBS owner said Breiss prices are going down, while european prices are rising.

 

[PeteOz77]

Then it would be powered by fossil fuels at night, and the sun(somehow) during the day. 50% savings.

Although I think you knew that?

I was waiting for you to come back and tell me that batteries were a good plan to store the energy when the sun isn't shining, so i could debate the ecological impact of the batteries

I thin solar is WAY under utilised. I am planning to look into some solar panels for my house. They reckon here in Aus, that the pay back is less than 2 years, and from then on you are saving money every day on your power bill. You can also sell your excess energy back to the local utilities.

 

[wihophead]

They reckon here in Aus, that the pay back is less than 2 years

You are going to be pretty disappointed when you find out it will be more like 20 years, maybe 10 if you are lucky and your government gives credits like here in the states. Oh and batteries are recyclable....

By the way the company I work for is the largest producer of solar power in the state of Wisconsin.....here is a news clip

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=621172

 

[PeteOz77]

You are going to be pretty disappointed when you find out it will be more like 20 years, maybe 10 if you are lucky and your government gives credits like here in the states. Oh and batteries are recyclable....

By the way the company I work for is the largest producer of solar power in the state of Wisconsin.....here is a news clip

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=621172

I guess it depends on how the panels cost and how much I am paying for electricity as well as how much I actually use. I'll do a bit of checking and let you know how they came up with those figures.

 

[PeteOz77]

WOW! I just had a look and the Fed Gov will pay me $8 per watt of capacity of the panels if I buy them. A 175 Watt panel here costs $1390. If the Gov rebates me $8 per Watt, then I MAKE $10 on every panel I buy! Minimum of 425 Watts, Maximum of 1KW

Obviously there are other costs involved, but free solar panels has to be a good start!

 

[wihophead]

WOW! I just had a look and the Fed Gov will pay me $8 per watt of capacity of the panels if I buy them. A 175 Watt panel here costs $1390. If the Gov rebates me $8 per Watt, then I MAKE $10 on every panel I buy! Minimum of 425 Watts, Maximum of 1KW

Obviously there are other costs involved, but free solar panels has to be a good start!

That sounds promising but you know what they say about things that sound to good to be true... I would look into it before the money is gone....

 

[PeteOz77]

The Aussie Gov is VERY good about anything that is GREEN.

They will pay me $1000 for installing a rainwater tank and hooking it into my toilets, shower and washing machine. Total cost for the tank and plumbing is under $3K

 

[fifelee]

I think solar is about to make a big influence. There is a neat new technology that has dropped the cost. Check out http://www.nanosolar.com/.

 

[wihophead]

I watched an episode on the Discovery Channel on the Australian Solar Tower project....seemed very interesting.