Tart Saison Question

[TheZymurgist]

I'm wanting to add a slight level of tartness and some funk to my Saison, but I'm not sure the best way to go about it. This will be a 10 gallon batch, where 5 gallons will be clean, 2.5 gallons will get Sacch and Brett (pitched simultaneously), and the last 2.5 gallons will get Sacch, Brett, and lactic acid bacteria.

I generally hop to about 30 IBU, so I'm guessing it's useless to use Lacto. Do I need to be afraid of Pedio going through a "ropey" period, or is that only certain strains?

Also, when would be the best time to add it? I'd say I want the tartness to be somewhat subtle, definitely not puckering. Maybe a 3 or 4 out of 10, just to add some brightness. My guess would be to add it after fermentation has mostly settled, but really have no idea.

Thanks!

 

[BGBC]

My first reaction:
Why not do a sour wort w/ lacto (no hopping prior to souring), then boil (and hop as desired) and pitch sacch/brett?

If you do use pedio, I wouldn't fear the sick, since the Brett should clean it up given the time.

 

[TheZymurgist]

My first reaction:
Why not do a sour wort w/ lacto (no hopping prior to souring), then boil (and hop as desired) and pitch sacch/brett?

If you do use pedio, I wouldn't fear the sick, since the Brett should clean it up given the time.

Since half of this is going to be Sacch only, I can't do any souring prior to the boil. My only concern with it getting sick is timeline. I'd like for this to be ready somewhat quickly, although I can certainly wait if I need to.

 

[BGBC]

Since half of this is going to be Sacch only, I can't do any souring prior to the boil.

Why not? I'm not sure exactly what your system is, but it can be done.

Bring the full volume to an initial boil to pasteurize, then rack out the portion that you want to sour. You'd need a separate vessel/kettle to cool it, but then rack to fermenter, pitch lacto, sour wort, then back to kettle to reboil and hop.

It won't be the same as splitting the same wort three ways post-boil, but it's one way of getting that initial tartness on a shorter timeline than Pedio would allow for.

 

[TheZymurgist]

Why not? I'm not sure exactly what your system is, but it can be done.

Bring the full volume to an initial boil to pasteurize, then rack out the portion that you want to sour. You'd need a separate vessel/kettle to cool it, but then rack to fermenter, pitch lacto, sour wort, then back to kettle to reboil and hop.

It won't be the same as splitting the same wort three ways post-boil, but it's one way of getting that initial tartness on a shorter timeline than Pedio would allow for.

I thought about that, and while it's a possibility, I'd rather keep it as simple as possible. I don't mind waiting for it to sour if it means a simpler brew day. And since I'm looking for only mild acidity, I don't think I'd have to wait that long, unless it ends up going through a sick phase.

I guess my questions really boil down to:

1) Will lacto be completely or only partially inhibited by 30 IBU? I'm assuming it's not even an option at this point, but if it's only partially inhibited, it may give me the sourness I'm looking for.

2) If lacto is completely inhibited, I'll have to use pedio. Are there only certain strains of pedio that cause the sickness, and if so can I avoid those? If not, it's not a big deal, I'll just have to wait longer for the brett to do its work.

3) When would be the best time to pitch the souring bugs? The brett will be pitched along with the sacch, so should I go ahead and pitch the LAB then too, or wait until fermentation has started to slow, or even later? I'm assuming pitching it prior to the yeast will give me more acidity than I'm looking for, but I could be wrong there, too.

Just looking for suggestions since this will be my first time using LAB with an end result in mind. So far, I've really only used a "throw it in and see what happens" approach.

 

[Gus_13]

I'll try to answer the best I can per my experience.

What lacto strains are you using? When I do a tart Saison, I don't alter my base recipe by much at all (if any.) It comes in around 26-28 IBUs typically. I let it ferment out as low as I can, somewhere around 1.008-1.006 (dryer if I push the temp up.) Then I will secondary or just pitch my lacto/brett combo in there. I have done many tart Saisons with lactobacillus delbrueckii but recently I've been using Brevis since it came out. I know they say they have a low tolerance of alcohol and hops but I've been enjoying the results. Personally I would test it out and see what happens, like you say. If you can get some Brevis that would be great too. My favorite combination so far is Brevis/Brett Claussenii. I let it sit 5-6 weeks after primary with those "bugs" in there and then it's typically ready to bottle.

I have also done a lower IBU Saison that I fermented with Lacto pre-Sacc pitch and that one was ok but didn't have the complexity that the secondary brew did. I may do this one again with a primary of brett and sacc with a secondary of another brett strain and lacto to see where it goes.


I'll add that if you pitch in primary, depending on the yeast you use, it may be too aggressive for the lacto to do anything. Time will be your friend. If you pitch them all together I'd let it sit the 6-8 weeks after primary to see what the brett/lacto will do over time. Brett does more for me in the bottle flavor and aroma wise. I personally wouldn't use pedio in mine but that doesn't mean it's correct.

Small bit of rambling but there may be something in there to help you out.

 

[jnacey]

Here's what I would do, and similar to what BGBC indicated:

1) Do your 5 gallon saison base hopped to what you want it, or maybe even just a touch higher to account for the other steps below. Make sure you use a super attenuative yeast that can get you down to like 1.004 or below.
2) Do a 2.5 gallon batch hopped to what you want that is a sacc primary with like a brett brux secondary. Let this go for like 2-3 months.
3) Do 2.5 gallons with no hops, drop in some lecto brevis for a few days at a temp of at least 90-100F until it gets a tartness that you like, finish off with a brett addition for the bulk of fermentation after a couple of days.

After a couple of months, blend to taste. The key is making sure that your gravities are very low on these before you bottle. This is a somewhat similar process to what Jester King does for Wunderkind. If you just want a light lactic tartness on it, I would just use some lacto and no pedio. This should make a nice, hoppy saison with a sublte lactic and brett background. This sounds pretty nice to me actually.

 

[BigPerm]

I'm wanting to add a slight level of tartness and some funk to my Saison, but I'm not sure the best way to go about it. This will be a 10 gallon batch, where 5 gallons will be clean, 2.5 gallons will get Sacch and Brett (pitched simultaneously), and the last 2.5 gallons will get Sacch, Brett, and lactic acid bacteria.

I generally hop to about 30 IBU, so I'm guessing it's useless to use Lacto. Do I need to be afraid of Pedio going through a "ropey" period, or is that only certain strains?

Also, when would be the best time to add it? I'd say I want the tartness to be somewhat subtle, definitely not puckering. Maybe a 3 or 4 out of 10, just to add some brightness. My guess would be to add it after fermentation has mostly settled, but really have no idea.

Thanks!

30 IBU will inhibit most lactobacillus strains. Using pedio will give you more sourness, but it will take longer and be more unpredictable (ie sourness could get higher than you want).

If I were in your position I might do a variation on what others have suggested: split your batch in half (Sacc only and Sacc+brett). Make a small side batch and sour the wort with lactobacillus, keep it in the 90s until it is puckeringly sour, and then pasteurize and ferment with WY1007. When you get a terminal gravity on the versions you want to make more tart, blend in portions of the small batch until you get it where you want it to be. You could even do this small side batch with pils DME just to make life a little easier.

Or, if you just want a little tartness, add about 10% acid malt to your mash. It will be a subtle tartness, but should be noticeable. With both of these methods, you wont have to reduce IBUs too far and minimize unpredictability,

Good luck!

 

[berebrando]

I'm wanting to add a slight level of tartness and some funk to my Saison, but I'm not sure the best way to go about it. This will be a 10 gallon batch, where 5 gallons will be clean, 2.5 gallons will get Sacch and Brett (pitched simultaneously), and the last 2.5 gallons will get Sacch, Brett, and lactic acid bacteria.



I generally hop to about 30 IBU, so I'm guessing it's useless to use Lacto. Do I need to be afraid of Pedio going through a "ropey" period, or is that only certain strains?



Also, when would be the best time to add it? I'd say I want the tartness to be somewhat subtle, definitely not puckering. Maybe a 3 or 4 out of 10, just to add some brightness. My guess would be to add it after fermentation has mostly settled, but really have no idea.



Thanks!

My first reaction to this is - if you are not pitching Pediococcus, why are you concerned about ropiness from a Pedio strain? The Sacc, Brett and Lacto strains (assuming pure cultures) will not introduce Pedio or cause ropiness on their own.

I would go ahead and pitch LSB all together and see how it turns out. If you want more tartness, next time you can pitch Lacto then Sacc/Brett later. I have a few beers with blended LSB cultures and they developed a nice tartness within 1-2 months. Good Luck!

 

[TheZymurgist]

I'll try to answer the best I can per my experience.

What lacto strains are you using? When I do a tart Saison, I don't alter my base recipe by much at all (if any.) It comes in around 26-28 IBUs typically. I let it ferment out as low as I can, somewhere around 1.008-1.006 (dryer if I push the temp up.) Then I will secondary or just pitch my lacto/brett combo in there. I have done many tart Saisons with lactobacillus delbrueckii but recently I've been using Brevis since it came out. I know they say they have a low tolerance of alcohol and hops but I've been enjoying the results. Personally I would test it out and see what happens, like you say. If you can get some Brevis that would be great too. My favorite combination so far is Brevis/Brett Claussenii. I let it sit 5-6 weeks after primary with those "bugs" in there and then it's typically ready to bottle.

I have also done a lower IBU Saison that I fermented with Lacto pre-Sacc pitch and that one was ok but didn't have the complexity that the secondary brew did. I may do this one again with a primary of brett and sacc with a secondary of another brett strain and lacto to see where it goes.


I'll add that if you pitch in primary, depending on the yeast you use, it may be too aggressive for the lacto to do anything. Time will be your friend. If you pitch them all together I'd let it sit the 6-8 weeks after primary to see what the brett/lacto will do over time. Brett does more for me in the bottle flavor and aroma wise. I personally wouldn't use pedio in mine but that doesn't mean it's correct.

Small bit of rambling but there may be something in there to help you out.

That's the kind of experience I was hoping to hear!! I'm trying to avoid separate boils and blending if I can, and I'd rather not use Pedio if I can help that, too. I think I will try this. Worst case, I just end up with five gallons of Sacch+Brett Saison, then I'll go back to the drawing board. My initial thought would be to do a 5 gallon batch of a moderate to highly sour Saison and use that for blending, rather than using Pedio. Not that I fear the Pedio, it just seems less predictable.

My first reaction to this is - if you are not pitching Pediococcus, why are you concerned about ropiness from a Pedio strain? The Sacc, Brett and Lacto strains (assuming pure cultures) will not introduce Pedio or cause ropiness on their own.

I would go ahead and pitch LSB all together and see how it turns out. If you want more tartness, next time you can pitch Lacto then Sacc/Brett later. I have a few beers with blended LSB cultures and they developed a nice tartness within 1-2 months. Good Luck!

I'm not concerned about ropiness if I'm not using Pedio. My question about ropiness was directly related to Pedio, but I was assuming I wouldn't be able to use Lacto because of the IBU.

 

[TheZymurgist]

Guess I really could have just read this:

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2014/08/new-zealand-saison-and-glycosides.html

:cross:

 

[Dogue]

I've been developing a sort of house saison culture that at this point includes contributions from Logsdon Seizoen Bretta, Crooked Stave Surette and Vieille, Belle Saison, and WLP670, in that order chronologically. Last week I pitched onto a cake of the previous batch, and within 5 days it's dropped from 1.055 to 1.006 and is already fairly tart (likely largely from the Lacto in the Crooked Staves).

 

[Gus_13]

I've been developing a sort of house saison culture that at this point includes contributions from Logsdon Seizoen Bretta, Crooked Stave Surette and Vieille, Belle Saison, and WLP670, in that order chronologically. Last week I pitched onto a cake of the previous batch, and within 5 days it's dropped from 1.055 to 1.006 and is already fairly tart (likely largely from the Lacto in the Crooked Staves).

How are you keeping the house culture between batches? Or are you just continually pitching on the cake? I have some 50mL vials I'm planning on using the blend I have for Saisons as well as some "bug stick" spirals I'll be using on multiple batches. I want to keep the sticks to go in secondaries. Hopefully that stick will carry some lacto, brett and sacc with it when it transfers.

 

[Dogue]

How are you keeping the house culture between batches? Or are you just continually pitching on the cake? I have some 50mL vials I'm planning on using the blend I have for Saisons as well as some "bug stick" spirals I'll be using on multiple batches. I want to keep the sticks to go in secondaries. Hopefully that stick will carry some lacto, brett and sacc with it when it transfers.

I do both: I have lately been largely just repitching on the cake, but I also keep a mason jar with the mixed culture and every month or two feed it with low gravity wort. I also reuse oak chips that have been in the fermenter with the culture.

 

[TheZymurgist]

I've been developing a sort of house saison culture that at this point includes contributions from Logsdon Seizoen Bretta, Crooked Stave Surette and Vieille, Belle Saison, and WLP670, in that order chronologically. Last week I pitched onto a cake of the previous batch, and within 5 days it's dropped from 1.055 to 1.006 and is already fairly tart (likely largely from the Lacto in the Crooked Staves).

That sounds awesome. CS only recently started shipping to Georgia, and I've loved every one I've tried, but Vieille has been my favorite so far. That's actually part of the inspiration for this. Maybe I'll have to grow up some dregs...

 

[Dogue]

That sounds awesome. CS only recently started shipping to Georgia, and I've loved every one I've tried, but Vieille has been my favorite so far. That's actually part of the inspiration for this. Maybe I'll have to grow up some dregs...

I, too, love the Vieille, and my recent batches have had a very similar character, so in my experience their dregs are quite viable. I imagine that due to the lack of sacc the character with pitching CS dregs can be fairly similar to the original. The beer might get sick for a while due to the pedio, but that will pass.

 

[TheZymurgist]

I, too, love the Vieille, and my recent batches have had a very similar character, so in my experience their dregs are quite viable. I imagine that due to the lack of sacc the character with pitching CS dregs can be fairly similar to the original. The beer might get sick for a while due to the pedio, but that will pass.

Glad you mentioned the pedio!! I think I'll skip those dregs for this batch for that reason, but will definitely consider using them in a future batch.