Surly Darkness Style RIS Recipe, Looking for Feedback

[solbes]

LME should have a very consistent amount of sugar in it, as it is made by a tightly controlled manufacturing process. Midwest to the best of my knowledge uses only Briess LME. It has just over 36 points per pound per gallon.

Taking your recipe, you have 10.5 lbs of LME diluted into 6.03 gallons of wort. That should add 63 points to your gravity. You had 32 gravity points from your partial mash (1.026 @ 7.53 boiled down to 6.03 gal). Roughly 5 points from the D180. Adding the three should give you an OG of 1.100. If I had to guess what the disrepancy is, I'd go with volume estimation error.

If you really wanted to hit 1.10, just add a lb of brown sugar Should still be malty enough I would think.

 

[ja09]

edit, duplicate post

 

[ja09]

Thanks solbes. I'm not the most experienced brewer (~15 batches so far), so this helps. I'm just going with Beersmith's standard calculations, not sure where the discrepancy is quite yet. Volumes were pretty accurate as far as I'm aware of.

Fermentation is slowing down so it would be a good time to add some more fermentables. Took a reading yesterday and it was at 1.036 and the krausen had completely fallen with no signs of activity in the carboy. Doing a little research, I found my basement might be a little too cold for 007 to finish. Moved it upstairs to 70* and it's picked back up nicely. This one made me a little nervous because I was expecting a blowoff and only got a small 1" krausen.

I was thinking about adding another pound of d180 to keep it in line with Surly's ingredients, but the sample tasted fantastic so I might just leave it alone. It had some real raisin/berry flavors that I wasn't expecting. Really liked it so far.

Any idea how another # of d180 would affect the flavor? and should it be boiled with a little water, or just dumped in?

 

[ja09]

Still bubbling away slowly, so I'm hoping my FG will be around 1.025, which would put it ~ 9% abv. Don't know if I have enough roasted malts to balance another # of d-180. I'll probably just leave it alone, especially if I enjoy the next sample as much as the last. I've never used brown sugar, will that dry it out similar to corn sugar?

 

[solbes]

Its almost the same thing, but has a small % of unfermentables that can give rummy overtones in med/large quanitities. Yes it will dry it out some.

It honestly sounds like its going very well. I would probably leave it as RIS should be malt bombs.

I've got a Belgian Dark Strong going now that has 2 lbs of D180 and 1 lb of D90. But it's a beer with a completely different flavor profile. Dang does that syrup make it taste good though

 

[ja09]

Also forgot to mention that I'm planning to experiment with 3 secondaries and I need to figure out what the hell I'm doing:
3 gal as-is
1 gal w/ vanilla bean (1 bean?) & vodka (50ml?)
1 gal w/ bourbon (100ml?), oak (1oz medium toast?) & tad of coffee (50ml?)

I don't really want to add vanilla beans & oak to the secondaries, rather create an extract from soaking so I don't have to transfer again. Any idea how long it would take to achieve these flavors soaking in liquor? Any other feedback is appreciated.

 

[solbes]

I would just add the vanilla, oak, or coffee at the end of secondary and bottle when the taste is right. No extra transfers.

I've never done vanilla beans, but usually 1-2 is enough for 5 gallons.

100/mL or 3 oz of bourbon may be a bit much for 1 gallon. But that may be desirable for you too. Before you start, you might want to do a soak&dump routine with bourbon/oak as the first dump is very tannic. For the oak part, buy cubes not chips. Chips have a lot more surface area and are more unforgiving on time. I would say 0.5-.75 oz of med cubes in one gallon. Check at 2 weeks, then every week until its right.

For the coffee, I would coarsely grind some beans (maybe 0.2-0.3 oz?), put in a fine mesh hop bag, and place into secondary. 24 hours should be plenty of time, then pull the bag out.

Awesome idea of getting 3 beers with one batch.

 

[ja09]

I would just add the vanilla, oak, or coffee at the end of secondary and bottle when the taste is right. No extra transfers.

I'm planning on bulk aging for 3-4 months in the secondaries, so I was hoping to add these flavors at the beginning so they can meld.

I've read people on here creating extracts from soaking vanilla beans in vodka. Hoping to do this with the vanilla and oak, but not sure how long to soak. Think I need to do some searching!

 

[GuldTuborg]

As for the vanilla, split the bean down the middle, scrape out the seeds, and submerge in a small amount of vodka for 1-2 weeks. You should be good to go after that. I don't think longer will cause problems, like bad tastes, but I think after 2 weeks, any extra flavor you get is pretty minimal.

 

[Joker_on_Jack]

I would forgo the coffee bean adds and just buy some nice espresso or cold press and direct pitch it.

I was going to do this recipe with bourbon on oak cubes. Just soak the bourbon on the oak chips for a day and then pitch both. The cubes shouldn't make a mess in the secondary.

 

[ja09]

Just soak the bourbon on the oak chips for a day and then pitch both. The cubes shouldn't make a mess in the secondary.

If possible, I'd like to avoid pitching the cubes so I don't over oak, and so the flavors have a chance to meld for 3-4 month before I bottle. I don't want to rack again off the oak. The last time I used bourbon & oak in a secondary, it was a 5gal honey porter... Soaked 2oz medium oak in 500ml Eagle Rare for 5-6 days, then pitched everything. Tasted a sample 2 weeks later and it was a phenomenal porter! Then, because I'm kinda lazy, I didn't rack into the keg until 12 days later and it was way over oaked. Harsh tannins that's still sitting kegged in my basement 4 months later hopefully smoothing out.

I'm thinking if I soak 1 oz medium oak in 150ml bourbon for 3-4 weeks, then just pitch ~ 75ml of only the bourbon, that should do the job... but I'm not sure??

 

[Joker_on_Jack]

If possible, I'd like to avoid pitching the cubes so I don't over oak, and so the flavors have a chance to meld for 3-4 month before I bottle. I don't want to rack again off the oak. The last time I used bourbon & oak in a secondary, it was a 5gal honey porter... Soaked 2oz medium oak in 500ml Eagle Rare for 5-6 days, then pitched everything. Tasted a sample 2 weeks later and it was a phenomenal porter! Then, because I'm kinda lazy, I didn't rack into the keg until 12 days later and it was way over oaked. Harsh tannins that's still sitting kegged in my basement 4 months later hopefully smoothing out.

I'm thinking if I soak 1 oz medium oak in 150ml bourbon for 3-4 weeks, then just pitch ~ 75ml of only the bourbon, that should do the job... but I'm not sure??

Let me know if you get the oak from that. remember you may need more oak as the RIS will have more pronounced flavors

 

[ja09]

Let me know if you get the oak from that. remember you may need more oak as the RIS will have more pronounced flavors

Will do. I'm also going to start another thread to see if anyone's done this with oak.

 

[ja09]

Here's the thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/creating-extracts-vanilla-vodka-oak-bourbon-410068/

 

[ja09]

Thought I'd provide an update on how this is coming out...

Sampled again yesterday and wow, this is turning into a fantastic beer; although a very unique experience because IT'S STILL FERMENTING!? Never experienced anything like this, but this is also my first beer above 1.075.

Here's some notes, maybe too many:

4-24-13
- Brew day. OG = 1.093, pure o2 for 120 sec, pitched 3L starter of wlp007

4-29-13
- 1.036, upped temp to ~ 70* to help finish, aiming for 1.024 FG which Beersmith calculated

6-15-13
- Started making extracts for 3 secondaries (1. as-is 2. bourbon/oak/coffee 3. vanilla/cocao nibs)
- Added 1oz med-heavy oak cubes to ~200ml of Makers & ~100ml of Eagle Rare
- Split & scraped 2 vanilla beans to ~250 ml of Grey Goose

6-19-13
- 1.033, no activity, tastes good but tons of plum, raisin and dark fruit (a bit too much at this point), too sweet but not cloying

7-30-13
- Noticed activity again in the carboy, constant small co2 bubble rising to surface, starting to wonder if I kept in on the yeast cake too long??

8-10-13
- 1.026, transferred to secondaries, purged with co2
- Tastes very good, dark fruit starting to mellow, sweetness also mellowing, starting to come together
- Added ~100ml of bourbon/oak extract and ~100ml cold pressed coffee to 1gal secondary
- Added 1oz cocoa nibs to ~ 10ml of vanilla extract w/ half bean remaining, topped with vodka to submerge nibs (still haven't pitched this yet)

9-11-13
- 1.019!!!!! Still fermenting, wtf!? (pics below) This is getting ridiculous, started cold crashing all 3 secondaries to stop fermentation
- Tastes phenomenal!! Smooth, complex dark fruits, hints of chocolate, alcohol hidden, right amount of sweetness.
- At first I was worried that I was way under on roasted malts, but I'm not too far off from the real thing. Probably still needs a bump in roast, but 5% max IMO. This is not supposed to be a roasty RIS.
- Bourbon/oak/coffee version tastes and smells absolutely amazing. Blends really well with the dark fruit and chocolate.

Summary
Not really sure why this is still fermenting? My sanitation is very good and everything tastes spot-on, so it must be the 007 still chugging along I'm at 79.57% attenuation right now, and I don't want it to finish any lower so I started cold crashing yesterday.

I am worried about bottle bombs for the two 1gal secondaries when the time comes, still need to figure out what to do about that. I will be kegging the 3gal secondary.

Below are some pics taken yesterday. All 3 have rings of co2 and constant co2 bubbles rising to the surface.

Thanks for listening. I'm very excited about this beer.

 

[ja09]

Removed this from cold crashing yesterday after a few days at 36*. Today it's fermenting again, looks similar to the pics above. Anyone have an idea what might be happening and how to stop this?

 

[GuldTuborg]

If it's warming up, it might just be CO2 coming out of solution. That's not uncommon. Give it a few days first and see what it's doing at that point.

 

[solbes]

I don't think its going to drop much further, but I would just let it sit in carboys at cellar temps and see what it does. At most I bet you drop another 2-3 points and the beer will still be great. You don't want an overcarbonated Darkness.

 

[ja09]

It is still fermenting, hopefully only a couple more points. Thanks for easing my mind.

My main concern was if any bugs got in and it fermented down way too far, but I don't see how that could of happened. I've never had any type of infection before, so I don't really know what to look for besides a funky krausen or off flavors, which this doesn't appear to have.

Now that I think about it, I did notice fruit flies in my basement a month or two ago, so I put my DME in the fridge and haven't seen them since. I don't see how they could infect a sealed 10% abv beer though.

 

[worthogg]

Brewed this last weekend. Used Safale s-04. Started at 1.120 and am now at 1.030. I hope it's done. I racked it to secondary tonight and it's got a lot of hot alcohol as I expected. I'll let it sit and probably bottle around Christmas time.

Boil Size: 9.54 gal
Post Boil Volume: 7.28 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 6.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.125 SG
Estimated Color: 52.0 SRM
Estimated IBU: 82.9 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 82.0 %
Boil Time: 120 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
14 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 46.3 %
8 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 2 26.4 %
2 lbs 4.0 oz Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 3 7.4 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.3 %
1 lbs Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 5 3.3 %
1 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 6 3.3 %
1 lbs Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 7 3.3 %
8.0 oz Acid Malt (3.0 SRM) Grain 8 1.7 %
8.0 oz Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 9 1.7 %
8.0 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 10 1.7 %
8.0 oz Candi Sugar, Dark (275.0 SRM) Sugar 11 1.7 %
2.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 60. Hop 12 52.1 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 13 12.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 14 18.6 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Aroma Steep 0.0 Hop 15 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Aroma Steep 0.0 min Hop 16 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) [35 Yeast 17 -


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 30 lbs 4.0 oz

 

[ja09]

Brewed this last weekend. Used Safale s-04. Started at 1.120 and am now at 1.030. I hope it's done. I racked it to secondary tonight and it's got a lot of hot alcohol as I expected. I'll let it sit and probably bottle around Christmas time.

Wow, from the looks of that recipe, you'll most likely be drinking one unique and delicious beer!... but you might have to wait until Christmas 2014

Were you going for a Darkness clone?.. and what made you take it off the yeast cake so soon?

Let us know how it turns out and thanks for sharing

 

[worthogg]

Wow, from the looks of that recipe, you'll most likely be drinking one unique and delicious beer!... but you might have to wait until Christmas 2014

Were you going for a Darkness clone?.. and what made you take it off the yeast cake so soon?

Let us know how it turns out and thanks for sharing

I got some good info from this thread about high finishing gravity. I pretty much used what they were using for grains and changed some amounts to what I thought I would like. I was actually hoping that it would have finished even a little higher than it did. It's 12%!!
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/surly-darkness-recipe-273322/

I'm willing to wait if it tastes amazing. I've never had Darkness but I understand it is excellent and this seemed like the most interesting imperial stout that I was into brewing this winter. I'll try to remember to update in a few months when I taste it again. Cheers!!

 

[Anderson7000]

I was designing around the same post you used as a base but just the grain bill (I'm going for different hop profile). The post does state to up the roasted malts but they do seem to be suggesting a lot. I think darkness has a significant sweet flavor that comes from the more golden promise, but you are doing partial mash so you will have to work with what you can. Special B should probably get bumped up as well as the caramel and raisin flavor is definitely there in a big way. Knowing Surly the also probably used all English roasted grains as well.

Here is my all grain recipe as of now, still tweaking it around. I don't know if there is a good substitute for golden promise in extract but if you wanted it to be a big part you might try to find one.

33% 2-Row (probably Canada Malting)
33% Golden Promise
8% Belgian Special B
7% Golden Naked Oats
4% English chocolate
4% English roasted barley
1% English Black
10% Dark Belgian candi sugar

Wyeast 1335

Using brewers gold and northern brewer hops shooting for 85IBU (Surly's published bitterness)

I hope this helps and let me know how it goes, I am worried about this one as well, its a boatload of grain and I want to set it on oak cubes for 3 months.

Were you ever able to brew this? I'm trying to put together an all-grain BIAB recipe, and am curious how this worked for you.

 

[Anderson7000]

Wow, from the looks of that recipe, you'll most likely be drinking one unique and delicious beer!... but you might have to wait until Christmas 2014

Were you going for a Darkness clone?.. and what made you take it off the yeast cake so soon?

Let us know how it turns out and thanks for sharing

I realize that it's been a few years, but how did the three different batches go? Did you like the pure clone better, or one of the 1 gallon offshoots?

I'm going to be brewing something similar next weekend. What temperature did you mash at?

Thanks

 

[ja09]

I realize that it's been a few years, but how did the three different batches go? Did you like the pure clone better, or one of the 1 gallon offshoots?

I'm going to be brewing something similar next weekend. What temperature did you mash at?

Thanks

Turned out pretty well. Very similar flavor profile but can't really call it a clone. It finished around 1.018 which is lower than I wanted and way too low for a clone. I think the real thing is around 1.040-1.045. Needless to say, it was a little hot and the flavors didn't come together until a few months later, but it's actually tasting phenomenal at the moment for how thin it is. Have a few bottles left.

If I were to redo it, I would up the OG and try to finish around 1.035. I would also add the dark Belgian candy syrup and some more fermentables (probably extra light dme boiled with the syrup) 12-18 hours after pitching the yeast, and re-oxygenate with pure o2 for another minute to two at this time. I've had great fermentations with this method on other big beers. Really helps with not overwhelming the yeast at the beginning. I can't find my notes about mash temp.

Just make sure to use pure o2 and pitch the appropriate sized starter, plus 007 needs tight fermentation temperature control. Keep it around 64-66* beer temp and up it to 70* after a few days when it slows down.

 

[ja09]

Oh and the 1g versions also came out great. The bourbon/oak/coffee one was very good, but so was the base beer.

 

[Joker_on_Jack]

Were you ever able to brew this? I'm trying to put together an all-grain BIAB recipe, and am curious how this worked for you.

I did brew it, and it turned out great. I ended up using WLP007 at basement floor temperatures once fermentation got rolling. It takes a year to really settle down. I finished out around 1.028, nice and thick. I never did end up oaking the batch as it had plenty of different flavors when I bottled it 8 months in. I wouldn't change much in the recipe other then doing the sugar at peak fermentation other then in the boil.

I bottle conditioned and ended up poping all the caps at 1 year and using a pipet to drop in fresh bottling yeast later, definitely killed the original yeast off.

Have fun with it.

 

[Anderson7000]

Thanks Ja09 and joker on Jack for responding.

I just brewed over the weekend. I brew BIAB in a keggle, and had a horrible time mixing the grain in my mash. I have a little plastic mixing wand, and it was just not sufficient with this much grain. So my mash temp was all over the place depending on where I was physically measuring. Somehow my mash gravity was only a hair off my beer smith calculations however, so it may have worked out. (1.080 actual vs 1.081 calculated) My recommendation to anyone else trying to BIAB a recipe with this much grain is to make sure that you have a large/ridged paddle. OR recirculate wort or something.

While researching this recipe, someone mentioned sparging and making another batch of beer (parti-gyle). There was definitely some sugar left in the grains, and you could get another batch of beer out of these grains. Just an FYI. I didn't do this, but I will next time.

The boil went well, although I did boil over on my keggle for the first time ever. (After throwing in the columbus hops at 60 min.) I did have to stir every 5-10 minutes thereafter to keep that from happening again. I lost some hops here, so hopefully its not enough to matter.

I did a 90 min boil, but still added the columbus at 60. I'm not sure if it matters if you put it in at 60 or 90.

I cold soaked the roasted grains for 24 hours before brewing in 5 qt of water (chocolate malt, roasted barley, & black patent). I read some where that you should double the qtys when cold soaking. I didn't have time to do more research, so I ended up doubling the chocolate malt and roasted barley, but not the black patent ( to hedge my bet). I strained the liquid into the boil at the 10 minute mark. Although I'm not sure how much liquid went into the boil and how much stayed in the grain. I maybe got a gallon. It did smell wonderful however.

I made a mistake when measuring the OG. I use a mesh filter to remove trub/hops. But I filled my graduated cylinder right from the kettle. so there was still some trub/hopps in when I measured the OG. I measured 1.109 (expecting 1.118). I'm assuming that the OG would increase with the trug removed, but I'm not completely sure. (Note, 1.109 puts my efficiency at 67%, just under my expected 70%)

I did do a yeast starter, but I have no idea how many cells were there. I think one of my next purchases is a flask and mixing plate. Depending on how I mixed, anywhere from 2 million to 5 million cells (WLP007).

I decided to not add the candi sugar to the boil. I found some "high gravity" recommendations somewhere, and they suggested that it may be better to add the sugar to the primary during fermentation. That too much sugar may be hard on the yeast at first. Anyway, so I ended adding the candi sugar and 1 cup of water to the primary about 20 hours after pitching yeast.

I did add O2 after pitching yeast (60 sec). As well as at ~14hours
945 sec) and after adding the candi sugar (30 sec). This is my first time doing O2, so hopefully this went ok.

I'm not sure when I started bubbling, but I had foam in my air lock when I checked the fermenter the next day (~13 hours after pitching). I cleaned it out, re-sanitized, and put the airlock back on.

I spent countless hours reading probably 100 articles and forum posts, so unfortunately I can't reference any of my research.

Ingredient list: (Note, list has un-doubled roasted grain numbers)
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
13 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 38.3 %
7 lbs Pale Malt UK (Golden Promiss) (3.0 SRM) Grain 38.3 %
2 lbs Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 7.7 %
12.0 oz Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 2.9 %
12.0 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 2.9 %
9.6 oz Candi Sugar, Dark (D-90) (275.0 SRM) Sugar 2.3 %
8.0 oz Oats, Golden Naked (1.0 SRM) Grain 1.9 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 1.9 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 1.9 %
8.0 oz Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 1.9 %

0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [9.00 %] - First Wort 30.0 min 9.8 IBUs
0.50 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - First Wort 30.0 min 14.1 IBUs
2.00 oz Columbus [14.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min 72.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min 0.0 IBUs


1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) -
1.0 pkg Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) [35.49 ml]

Mash: 60min @ 155F
Boil: 90 min
Calculated OG: 1.120
Calculated FG: 1.030

I'm about 36 hours in, and still bubbling continuously. I'll post updates as things go, but I do plan on aging in the secondary for a few months. Feel free to comment on/correct my technique, or ask any questions that you may have.

 

[Anderson7000]

A quick update in case anyone is curious. Fermented well. I now have it aging in a glass carboy in my basement. I plan on bottling in a month or so.

 

[BrewDog760]

Hey All,

After a 2 year hiatus from brewing and a move from So Cal to Minneapolis, I'm brewing again. My first foray was a simple all-Amarillo IPA which has been fermenting about 5 days. I'm already planning the next brew and luckily for me, I have a really cool neighbor who brought over a 2018 Darkness to share on Halloween. Needless to say, I would like to have my own.

I wanted to bump this thread again to see how everything turned out for everyone and start putting together my own recipe based on this discussion.

My intention is to have 3 gal at bottling. I have a 10 gal igloo mash tun with a false bottom so I figure once I do the conversion with BeerSmith, the grain bill shouldn't be too much. My BH efficiency on my brew this week was 80%.

So any advice/lessons learned that were not mentioned here?

Thanks!