Surly Darkness Recipe

[philiphirz]

I spent this morning messing around trying to guess at the recipe for Surly Darkness. I would appreciate any feedback or tips that you can provide. It has been a couple of years since I have had Surly Darkness which makes this task that much tougher, but fortunately there is some good information on the Surly website.

This is the info I started with from the Surly Website:

STYLE: Russian Imperial Stout/American Double Stout
MALT: Pale Ale, Golden Promise , Crystal, Dark Crystal, Oats, Black, Chocolate, Roast
SUGAR: Belgian Dark Candi Sugar
HOPS: Columbus, Amarillo, Simcoe
YEAST: English Ale
OG: 29° Plato
ABV: 9.8 % v/v
COLOR: 55 ºSRM
IBU: 85

The OG is crazy high at 1.125 meaning that the FG should be around 1.030 given the 9.8% ABV specified. This combined with the oats makes for a ridiculously full and creamy mouthfeel. I made the assumption that the malts are listed in order of percentage within the recipe. I have no idea if that is correct, but it seemed like a reasonable enough starting point.

The recipe was designed using ProMash. I assumed a 6 gallon batch size and 70% efficiency since I am used to looking at recipes in that format thanks to the Brewing Classic Styles book. When I brew this I will probably scale it back and do a 3 gallon batch so I can fit all of the grains in my mash tun.

Thanks for the feedback,
Phil


13-F Surly Darkness
A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (Gal): 6.00 Wort Size (Gal): 6.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 29.00
Anticipated OG: 1.125 Plato: 29.19
Anticipated SRM: 54.7
Anticipated IBU: 84.4
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------
Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 7.74 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.097 SG 23.14 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------
Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.
Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %

Grain/Extract/Sugar
% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
37.9 11.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) USA 1.037 2
37.9 11.00 lbs. Pale Malt (Golden Promise) UK 1.037 2
5.2 1.50 lbs. Crystal 40L USA 1.034 40
5.2 1.50 lbs. Crystal 120L UK 1.033 120
5.2 1.50 lbs. Flaked Oats USA 1.033 2
1.7 0.50 lbs. Black Patent Malt USA 1.028 525
1.7 0.50 lbs. Chocolate Malt USA 1.029 350
1.7 0.50 lbs. Roasted Barley USA 1.033 300
3.4 1.00 lbs. Candi Sugar (dark) Generic 1.046 275

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.

Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.50 oz. Columbus Pellet 14.50 71.3 90 min.
1.00 oz. Amarillo Gold Pellet 9.00 5.4 10 min.
1.00 oz. Simcoe Pellet 13.00 7.7 10 min.

Yeast
-----
White Labs WLP002 English Ale

Mash Schedule
-------------
Mash Type: Single Step
Grain Lbs: 28.00
Water Qts: 36.40 - Before Additional Infusions
Water Gal: 9.10 - Before Additional Infusions
Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.30 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 152 Time: 60
Mash-out Rest Temp : 168 Time: 10
Sparge Temp : 170 Time: 60

Total Mash Volume Gal: 11.34 - Dough-In Infusion Only
All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.

Notes
-----
OG: 1.125
FG: 1.030
Ferment with 450 billion yeast cells.
Ferment at 68 F.
Carbonate to 2 to 2.5 volumes.
Store for 6 months before serving.

 

[JLo]

I have seen a few Surly Darnkess clone recipies about a year ago when I first got into this hobby. I don't know that anyone had actually brewed and dialed-in the Darkness.

 

[mcaple1]

Sooo....how did it turn out?

 

[ProzHack]

Still waiting for tasting results...

 

[marca31]

Well, let us know because that sounds really good.

 

[fermenter]

So I heard in some podcast that Surly used Belgian Special B http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/belgian-special-b.html I assume that would be the "Dark Crystal" in the original recipe.

Unless my research proves something better I think I will try this one in a few months if so I will post back in 9 months

 

[skibb]

Straight from the horse's mouth...

48% 2-Row
27% UK Pale Malt
8% Dingemans Aromatic
3% Chocolate Malt (US) 350L
3% Roasted Barley 550L
2.5% Dark Candi Syrup
2.5% Brewer's Crystals
2% Flaked Oats
2% British Crystal 50-60L
2% British Crystal 135-165L
2% Black Patent 500L
(Adds up to 102%...)

OG: 28 P (1.121)
FG: 10 P (1.040)
(Makes the ABV: 10.7%)

Target 85 IBU
Columbus for bittering
Simcoe/Amarillo for WP

When I inquire further on the gravities (since they deviate from what's listed on the site) I was told that the recipe varies a bit year to year based on raw materials available. This is the most current recipe.

I just have to say the folks at Surly are bad-asses at what they do and it's very fortunate they are willing to share their knowledge to us home brewers!

 

[gbarron]

Sounds good but what is "Brewer's Crystals"?

 

[JLo]

I've used brewers crystals for years, ferments the same as wort, without drying out the beer.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/brewers-crystals-228142/

 

[dukedevil0]

Straight from the horse's mouth...

48% 2-Row = Canada Malting Pale Ale Malt?
27% UK Pale Malt = Simpsons Golden Promise?
8% Dingemans Aromatic
3% Chocolate Malt (US) 350L
3% Roasted Barley 550L
2.5% Dark Candi Syrup
2.5% Brewer's Crystals
2% Flaked Oats = Simpson's Golden Naked Oats?
2% British Crystal 50-60L
2% British Crystal 135-165L
2% Black Patent 500L
(Adds up to 102%...)

OG: 28 P (1.121)
FG: 10 P (1.040)
(Makes the ABV: 10.7%)

Target 85 IBU
Columbus for bittering
Simcoe/Amarillo for WP

When I inquire further on the gravities (since they deviate from what's listed on the site) I was told that the recipe varies a bit year to year based on raw materials available. This is the most current recipe.

I just have to say the folks at Surly are bad-asses at what they do and it's very fortunate they are willing to share their knowledge to us home brewers!

Made some notes above - assuming the typical Surly grains they use.

I'm wondering a little about the hop schedule and amounts though. Hitting the IBUs is pretty easy to come up with, but the flavor/aroma is less straightforward.

Most of Surly's recipes seem to use FWH or Mash Hops. The recipe above seems to indicate only Whirlpool addition for flavor/aroma.

So would you do enough of Columbus at FWH to reach the target 85 IBU? There must not be a 15 min addition or anything? Any dry hopping? Or maybe it would make more sense for a homebrewer to dry hop instead of a whirlpool addition?

Any ideas for a hop schedule? Boil time? 90 min?

 

[sidepart]

So would you do enough of Columbus at FWH to reach the target 85 IBU? There must not be a 15 min addition or anything? Any dry hopping? Or maybe it would make more sense for a homebrewer to dry hop instead of a whirlpool addition?

Any ideas for a hop schedule? Boil time? 90 min?

When I tried to re-make this, I FWH'd the Amarillo and Simcoe Columbus and then added the Amarillo and Simcoe at flameout. I don't remember the specifics, they're in my notebook at home. I just based it off of the Northern Brewer Surly Bender recipe. It indicated FWH the Willamette hops for that beer (not the Columbus). I get the impression that they wouldn't FWH the 60 minute addition.

Honestly surprised the recipe here says "Flaked Oats" instead of Golden Naked Oats, but I wouldn't assume that they're both the same thing. Perhaps they removed the Golden Naked Oats from the recipe, or they just didn't use it in Darkness. In my variation I'm using both. I want the flaked oats for thickness and body and the golden naked oats for nut berry flavor.

Some notes on my last iteration of this (which I will try to post later), it was too bitter for my taste. Like maybe FWH wasn't the way to go. Or maybe I should've used less hops for a FWH addition.

Also have no idea how they get a 9.5-10% ABV using WLP007. I mean, I got 10% on my last batch but that was because I missed my target of 1.125 (hit 1.110) because producing a beer like this with batch sparge is really inefficient. Still, my calculations would indicate 12% or 13%...even with a higher mash temperature around 155 or 158F.

 

[dukedevil0]

When I tried to re-make this, I FWH'd the Amarillo and Simcoe and then added some of them at flameout. I don't remember the specifics, they're in my notebook at home. I just based it off of the Northern Brewer Surly Bender recipe. It indicated FWH the Willamette hops for that beer (not the Columbus). Just got the impression that they wouldn't FWH the 60 minute addition.

Honestly surprised the recipe here says "Flaked Oats" instead of Golden Naked Oats, but I wouldn't assume that they're both the same thing. Perhaps they removed the Golden Naked Oats from the recipe, or they just didn't use it in Darkness. In my variation I'm using both. I want the flaked oats for thickness and body and the golden naked oats for nut berry flavor.

Some notes on my last iteration of this (which I will try to post later), it was too bitter for my taste. Like maybe FWH wasn't the way to go. Or maybe I should've used less hops for a FWH addition.

Also have no idea how they get a 9.5-10% ABV using WLP007. I mean, I got 10% on my last batch but that was because I missed my target of 1.125 (hit 1.110) because producing a beer like this with batch sparge is really inefficient. Still, my calculations would indicate 12% or 13%...even with a higher mash temperature around 155 or 158F.

Definitely would appreciate some of your notes/recipe you followed.

I see your point about Bender having the aroma hops being FWH rather than doing the same bittering hop for FWH and 60 min. Maybe that does make more sense.

I agree that one of the big questions is how they get that 10% as well. Even if you hit the OG, then you gotta worry about WLP007 fermenting out too much since you need to be at 1.040+ FG to get ~10% abv. I'm not sure if it comes down to lower attenuation, or if Surly prematurely stops fermentation, or what.

 

[sidepart]

Sorry, forgot to look this up yesterday. I'll edit this post with my notes later today.

My best guess was that they just mashed at a higher temperature to make it harder for the yeast to consume the sugars. My understanding is that this would give it a heavy body and a sweeter taste.

I guess they could try to stop the beer during fermentation, but I would assume that would require them to filter the yeast out so that it wouldn't blow up their bottles. Maybe I just don't have a good enough understanding if it's a common practice.

 

[dukedevil0]

Todd at Surly just responded to me about hitting the FG. To be honest I'm quite surprised about mashing at 150 F. Thoughts?

todd haug (@surlybrewer)
Add EVIL! RT @dukedevil0: @surlybrewer any hints on how hit the high FG on a darkness homebrew?

todd haug (@surlybrewer)
Candi Syrup, DME , long boil, mash 150 for attenuation RT @dukedevil0: @surlybrewer Ha. LHBS doesnt carry evil...mash high instead?

 

[skibb]

Are you all sure the yeast is 007?

And mashing higher will not make the beer more sweet necessarily, it will just create more dextrins and in turn increase the perceived body of the beer.

If you were to crash cool the yeast when it hits terminal and leave unfermented fermentables still in the beer, then you would certainly make the beer sweeter.

 

[skeezerpleezer]

Perhaps they use some Maltodextrin?

 

[JLo]

I'm actually looking forward to it attenuating a bit more, I like the Darkness, but it could be a bit more dry for my taste.

 

[dukedevil0]

Are you all sure the yeast is 007?

And mashing higher will not make the beer more sweet necessarily, it will just create more dextrins and in turn increase the perceived body of the beer.

If you were to crash cool the yeast when it hits terminal and leave unfermented fermentables still in the beer, then you would certainly make the beer sweeter.

I don't think it's been totally confirmed that they use 007. However, most people have assumed that's what they use based on the fact that Furious, Bender, and Bitter Brewer all use WLP007.

No doubt it could be wrong though.

 

[dukedevil0]

I don't think it's been totally confirmed that they use 007. However, most people have assumed that's what they use based on the fact that Furious, Bender, and Bitter Brewer all use WLP007.

No doubt it could be wrong though.

Scratch that, it is definitely WLP007.

Clone kits made with help from Surly list the yeasts they use. For their other ales it says "Surly uses White Labs WLP007 Dry English Ale"
http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/surly-furious-pro-series-all-grain-kit.html

Video below says they only have 4 yeasts. Ale (WLP007), Lager (WLP830), Belgian (WLP550), and Brett.
[ame]http://vimeo.com/33664147[/ame]

 

[sidepart]

Here are my notes on my clone of it from last year.

Grains
----------
8.5	lbs	Canadian Malting Pale Ale
8.5	lbs	Golden Promise
2	lbs	English Medium Crystal
2	lbs	English Dark Crystal
1	lbs	English Black Patent
1	lbs	English Chocolate
1	lbs	English Roast Malt
1	lbs	Flaked Oats
1	lbs 	Belgian Dark Candi Sugar (I think D-90)

26	lbs	total

Hops
----------
Columbus	60 minutes	30 AAUs
Amarillo	Flameout	10 AAUs
Simcoe		Flameout	10 AAUs
Columbus	FWH		15 AAUs

IBU: 95

Yeast
----------
WLP007	Racked onto a yeast cake (third use).  Was used for an IPA, then Bender Clone, then Darkness.

Mash Schedule
----------
Mash 152F for 60 minutes.  Batch sparge with two batches.

Mash Water, 8.13 gallons (~1.25oz water/lb of grain)
Sparge water, 2.44 gallons

Pre-boil volume, 6.5 gallons.  Post-boil volume, 5.50.  Anticipated eff, 75%.

OG: 1.125
FG: 1.025
ABV: 13%

Ferment for 2 weeks in Primary @ ~75F.  Rack to secondary, age for 6 months.  1 month at ~75F, 5 months at 40F.  Prime with corn sugar, add small amount of WLP007 to bottling bucket as well (the yeast in the suspension was most likely dead so I added a tiny amount, didn't measure).

I really only managed to batch sparge with ONE batch because of the high grain content. Batch sparging is a horrible idea for a beer like this, but it's all I can do. I actually made a stout out of the second and third runnings of this.

I estimated an efficiency of 75% which put me at 125.31 for my calculated Post-boil OG. I ended up somewhere around 110 instead. I predicted an FG of 1.025. I only ended up at about 1.040 instead (it was hard to read, I had carbonation in the beer during the reading).

I left the carboy up at my parent's vacation house over the winter. It was controlled at 40F in the basement. I think it definitely needed that too. The beer is very bitter. This is probably because I FWH with the Columbus (fyi: I edited my previous post about this, I mixed it up, I did actually FWH with Columbus). I think I'm going to try it the other way around (FWH the Amarillo or Simcoe) next time. I believe I either FWH the Columbus for too long, or Columbus is just a really ****ty kind of hop to flavor a beer with. Either way it tastes much higher than 95IBUs. Other thoughts are that I could have used too much roasty type malts like black patent, roast and chocolate. It's decent, it's just not very sweet, and it's bitter like an IPA.

Here's what I want to change:

• Too roasty, use less roast malts.
• Too bitter, try a different hop schedule.
• Use the proper amount of yeast instead of OVER yeasting the beer.
• Boil longer
• Make it sweeter

Here is my new recipe that I will make...some day:

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Aberrant2
Brewer: David Grilli
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Imperial Stout
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.98 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.98 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal   
Bottling Volume: 4.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.128 SG
Estimated Color: 61.5 SRM
Estimated IBU: 83.7 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 62.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 64.9 %
Boil Time: 120 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
14 lbs                Pale Ale Malt 2-Row (Briess) (3.5 SRM)   Grain         1        45.2 %        
8 lbs                 Golden Promise (Simpsons) (2.0 SRM)      Grain         2        25.8 %        
2 lbs 4.0 oz          Aromatic Malt (Dingemans) (19.0 SRM)     Grain         3        7.3 %         
1 lbs                 Chocolate Malt (Simpsons) (430.0 SRM)    Grain         4        3.2 %         
1 lbs                 Crystal, Extra Dark (Simpsons) (160.0 SR Grain         5        3.2 %         
1 lbs                 Crystal, Medium (Simpsons) (55.0 SRM)    Grain         6        3.2 %         
12.0 oz               Acid Malt (3.0 SRM)                      Grain         7        2.4 %         
12.0 oz               Oats, Flaked (Briess) (1.4 SRM)          Grain         8        2.4 %         
12.0 oz               Oats, Golden Naked (Simpsons) (10.0 SRM) Grain         9        2.4 %         
8.0 oz                Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM)          Grain         10       1.6 %         
8.0 oz                Roasted Barley (Briess) (300.0 SRM)      Grain         11       1.6 %         
0.50 oz               Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - First Wort 30.0 Hop           12       8.1 IBUs      
0.50 oz               Simcoe [13.00 %] - First Wort 30.0 min   Hop           13       12.4 IBUs     
8.0 oz                Candi Sugar, Dark (275.0 SRM)            Sugar         14       1.6 %         
2.00 oz               Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 60. Hop           15       63.2 IBUs     
0.50 oz               Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Aroma Steep 30. Hop           16       0.0 IBUs      
0.50 oz               Simcoe [13.00 %] - Aroma Steep 30.0 min  Hop           17       0.0 IBUs      
1.0 pkg               Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) [35 Yeast         18       -             


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 31 lbs
----------------------------
Name              Description                             Step Temperat Step Time     
Mash In           Add 30.50 qt of water at 173.7 F        158.0 F       60 min        

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun, , 4.52gal) of 168.0 F water
Notes:
------


Created with BeerSmith 2 - http://www.beersmith.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's a work in progress...I probably won't do a 120 min boil, maybe only 90 minutes. My pot can't really hold 8 gallons since it is...an 8 gallon pot (I guess I could go halvsies between two of my pots). I would follow a similar aging process, 2 weeks in primary, 6 months in carboy. You can see that I'm increasing the Pale Ale Malt by a LOT. I'm anticipating a 62%-67% efficiency. I also added Acid Malt, seems to help my efficiency in bigger darker beers (probably helps with my water chemistry, I don't pay attention to it). I also have been liking the slight bite that it gives my beers. I'm also doing the Amarillo, Simcoe as a FWH because those are my flavor and smell hops. Columbus is just there to add some grit to it. I cut WAAYY back on the roast, black and chocolate malts (in terms of percentage). I also went with Aromatic Malt just to see if that really gives me some sweetness and caramel aromas with those crystal malts.

I call my rendition, "Aberrant".

Now...forget Darkness. Try and figure out what Todd did to Coffee Bender's recipe. It's much much more aromatic and flavorful. It's not just a cold press process anymore, and he told me that homebrewers can't replicate the process. I take that as a challenge, and I have (what I think) is a PRETTY good idea of what he's doing. The process would probably be somewhat illegal too, which is why I feel like he said that. I won't share my notes on this, but "The Hauge (Haug) Challenge"--my Coffee Bender clone-- is far and away better than when I did it with just cold pressed coffee. I just need to dial down the coffee flavor a little.

Why won't I share my notes on it? Well...what if I really did figure out Todd's process? Dude is pretty proud of his science, let him bask in it for awhile. Makes it fun for us to replicate.

 

[sidepart]

Todd at Surly just responded to me about hitting the FG. To be honest I'm quite surprised about mashing at 150 F. Thoughts?

I'm doing some more research on this, because I think we might be lacking a fundamental understanding of how over simplified our FG calculations are.

TAKE THE FOLLOWING WITH A GRAIN OF SALT! I HAVE NO EXPERIMENTAL PROOF HERE!

Think about it like this. We have the Pale Ale Malt and the Golden Promise which have enzymatic power to convert starch into sugars. They themselves will produce sugars that are easily attenuated. To some degree the Aromatic Malt in my recipe has some enzymatic power as well. The crystal malts have no enzymatic power. Same with Oats, roast malt and chocolate malt. Their starches will be converted by our base malts, but their sugars will be very complex and not easily attenuated.

Either way we see that we can get sugars out of all of these grains. The gravity we have as a result is 1.125 to start with. However, of the sugars in that 1.125, I venture a guess that only the sugars contained in roughly 70% of that OG will be easy sugars for the yeast to attenuate. The rest just stay there doing nothing and making your beer sweet.

So BeerSmith and my own hand calculations tell me that I'll go from 1.125 to 1.034, which is a 12.5% ABV beer. What none of these calculations take into account is that only 70% of the sugars (I guess) will be easily eaten by the yeast to begin with. You more or less have to brew it and just see how well the yeast does, and it seems almost hard to calculate at any rate.

So where am I getting 70%? Well in my recipe above, 70% is roughly the amount of grains I have that have a high enzymatic power and will convert into easy to eat sugars. To predict what my FG will be, I'm going to try the following:

• Only calculate the OG as a result of the enzymatic power grains. I'll call it pseudG since it's not our real OG.
• Find the FG as a result of this. I'll call it the pseudo_FG since it's not our REAL FG.
• Find the ABV using this pseudG and pseudo_FG.
• Go back and calculate the real FG using your real OG and the ABV you calculated using the pseudo values.

Anyway all of that gives me a pseudo OG of 1.099 and a pseudo FG of 1.027 for an ABV of roughly 9.6%. I get an FG of 1.052 using that ABV. My original calculations call for a 1.034 FG. So, I'm really going to see if I hit my 1.052 target this time around, and do some more research to see if I'm thinking about this correctly. I'm also not going to mash higher, just in case that throws this off.

If you want to do this in BeerSmith instead of with a pencil and paper, just remove your base malts (anything that converts) from your recipe, and see the OG/FG/ABV values. You'll still have to back calculate the FG. I use the following equation: ABV = (og – fg) * 131.25 (source).

So, summary:
I think we need to think harder about the FG and ABV calculations here, and try not to factor in the grains and adjuncts that don't convert starch into sugar. This might explain why this recipe should give us an ABV of 9.5% instead of 12.5%.

Someone wanted to make this recipe but dry it out. Using my potentially incorrect reasoning above, I would decrease the amount of crystal malts and increase the Pale Ale Malt. Try to hit a 1.125 still, and use the above methodology to reduce the FG. You might have to reduce the roast, black patent, chocolate, etc as well to balance the flavor.

UPDATE!
Probably a good idea to disregard my hair-brained ideas above until experimentation can be done.


Someone did an interesting experiment. http://beertech.blogspot.com/2011/03/crystal-malt-experiment-attenuation.html

It looks like they concluded that crystal malts would indeed attenuate in the presence of highly modified base malts. What I take away from this is that you either use an obscene amount of Crystal Malt in your recipe to get residual sweetness, or it doesn't really do much for you. This is only one source though.

His conclusions:

From what I learned, some basic guidelines when using crystal malt would be:

1)If steeping crystal malts alone, expect lower PPG than when mashing it with a base malt. About 50% of the poits you get from the malt will be left to FG for light malts and 60% for darker malts

2)If mashing with a base malt, treat crystal just like a base malt, specially if using small amounts like 10 to 20% of the grain bill. So don't blame the crystal malt for a higher FG since most of its sugars will be fermented.

3)Regardless, crystal malt is not the best tool to add residual sugars to the final beer. Perhaps mashing at higher temp is the way to go, along with Lactose or Dextrin (that we believe is not fermentable. I may have to test that also).

For instance, if you use 2lb of crystal 40L to a 10lb grist recipe (20% rate), which is a lot, it would give you about 9 points for your OG and at least half of that will be fermented, leaving you with only 4.5 points of residual sugar from the crystal malt. For most recipes where only 10% of crystal is used, those residual points would drop to 2 or less, what doesn't give you any sweetness at all.

 

[dukedevil0]

Here are my notes on my clone of it from last year.

Grains
----------
8.5	lbs	Canadian Malting Pale Ale
8.5	lbs	Golden Promise
2	lbs	English Medium Crystal
2	lbs	English Dark Crystal
1	lbs	English Black Patent
1	lbs	English Chocolate
1	lbs	English Roast Malt
1	lbs	Flaked Oats
1	lbs 	Belgian Dark Candi Sugar (I think D-90)

26	lbs	total

Hops
----------
Columbus	60 minutes	30 AAUs
Amarillo	Flameout	10 AAUs
Simcoe		Flameout	10 AAUs
Columbus	FWH		15 AAUs

IBU: 95

Yeast
----------
WLP007	Racked onto a yeast cake (third use).  Was used for an IPA, then Bender Clone, then Darkness.

Mash Schedule
----------
Mash 152F for 60 minutes.  Batch sparge with two batches.

Mash Water, 8.13 gallons (~1.25oz water/lb of grain)
Sparge water, 2.44 gallons

Pre-boil volume, 6.5 gallons.  Post-boil volume, 5.50.  Anticipated eff, 75%.

OG: 1.125
FG: 1.025
ABV: 13%

Ferment for 2 weeks in Primary @ ~75F.  Rack to secondary, age for 6 months.  1 month at ~75F, 5 months at 40F.  Prime with corn sugar, add small amount of WLP007 to bottling bucket as well (the yeast in the suspension was most likely dead so I added a tiny amount, didn't measure).

I estimated an efficiency of 75% which put me at 125.31 for my calculated Post-boil OG. I ended up somewhere around 110 instead. I predicted an FG of 1.025. I only ended up at about 1.040 instead (it was hard to read, I had carbonation in the beer during the reading).

I left the carboy up at my parent's vacation house over the winter. It was controlled at 40F in the basement. I think it definitely needed that too. The beer is very bitter. This is probably because I FWH with the Columbus (fyi: I edited my previous post about this, I mixed it up, I did actually FWH with Columbus). I think I'm going to try it the other way around (FWH the Amarillo or Simcoe) next time. I believe I either FWH the Columbus for too long, or Columbus is just a really ****ty kind of hop to flavor a beer with. Either way it tastes much higher than 95IBUs. Other thoughts are that I could have used too much roasty type malts like black patent, roast and chocolate. It's decent, it's just not very sweet, and it's bitter like an IPA.

Here's what I want to change:

• Too roasty, use less roast malts.
• Too bitter, try a different hop schedule.
• Use the proper amount of yeast instead of OVER yeasting the beer.
• Boil longer
• Make it sweeter

Here is my new recipe that I will make...some day:

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Aberrant2
Brewer: David Grilli
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Imperial Stout
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.98 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.98 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal   
Bottling Volume: 4.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.128 SG
Estimated Color: 61.5 SRM
Estimated IBU: 83.7 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 62.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 64.9 %
Boil Time: 120 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
14 lbs                Pale Ale Malt 2-Row (Briess) (3.5 SRM)   Grain         1        45.2 %        
8 lbs                 Golden Promise (Simpsons) (2.0 SRM)      Grain         2        25.8 %        
2 lbs 4.0 oz          Aromatic Malt (Dingemans) (19.0 SRM)     Grain         3        7.3 %         
1 lbs                 Chocolate Malt (Simpsons) (430.0 SRM)    Grain         4        3.2 %         
1 lbs                 Crystal, Extra Dark (Simpsons) (160.0 SR Grain         5        3.2 %         
1 lbs                 Crystal, Medium (Simpsons) (55.0 SRM)    Grain         6        3.2 %         
12.0 oz               Acid Malt (3.0 SRM)                      Grain         7        2.4 %         
12.0 oz               Oats, Flaked (Briess) (1.4 SRM)          Grain         8        2.4 %         
12.0 oz               Oats, Golden Naked (Simpsons) (10.0 SRM) Grain         9        2.4 %         
8.0 oz                Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM)          Grain         10       1.6 %         
8.0 oz                Roasted Barley (Briess) (300.0 SRM)      Grain         11       1.6 %         
0.50 oz               Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - First Wort 30.0 Hop           12       8.1 IBUs      
0.50 oz               Simcoe [13.00 %] - First Wort 30.0 min   Hop           13       12.4 IBUs     
8.0 oz                Candi Sugar, Dark (275.0 SRM)            Sugar         14       1.6 %         
2.00 oz               Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 60. Hop           15       63.2 IBUs     
0.50 oz               Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Aroma Steep 30. Hop           16       0.0 IBUs      
0.50 oz               Simcoe [13.00 %] - Aroma Steep 30.0 min  Hop           17       0.0 IBUs      
1.0 pkg               Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) [35 Yeast         18       -             


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 31 lbs
----------------------------
Name              Description                             Step Temperat Step Time     
Mash In           Add 30.50 qt of water at 173.7 F        158.0 F       60 min        

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun, , 4.52gal) of 168.0 F water
Notes:
------


Created with BeerSmith 2 - http://www.beersmith.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just a couple notes/comments/questions:

1) What hop amounts did you use for your original recipe brewed? I could calculate it out, but asking is easier

2) For your FWH additions in your new recipe, I think the boil time needs to be adjusted (you have 30 minutes listed, but I believe it should match the recipe boil time so 90 min as that sounded like what you wanted to do)
http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/03/17/the-first-wort-hop-beer-brewing-techniques/#comment-20386

3) I'm glad your first attempt finished around 1.040. It's pretty clear that Darkness finishes with a high FG and I've been concerned about replicating it so this is somewhat reassuring.

4) Did you have any issues with carbonating? Did you keg or bottle condition? Did you add yeast at bottling?

 

[sidepart]

Just a couple notes/comments/questions:

1) What hop amounts did you use for your original recipe brewed? I could calculate it out, but asking is easier

2) For your FWH additions in your new recipe, I think the boil time needs to be adjusted (you have 30 minutes listed, but I believe it should match the recipe boil time so 90 min as that sounded like what you wanted to do)
http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/03/17/the-first-wort-hop-beer-brewing-techniques/#comment-20386

3) I'm glad your first attempt finished around 1.040. It's pretty clear that Darkness finishes with a high FG and I've been concerned about replicating it so this is somewhat reassuring.

4) Did you have any issues with carbonating? Did you keg or bottle condition? Did you add yeast at bottling?

1. The hops I used were Columbus 15%AA, Amarillo 10%AA and Simcoe 10%AA. So 2 oz of Columbus for boil, 1 oz each of Amarillo and Simcoe and 1 oz of Columbus in FWH.

2. You're probably right but I'll try to explain my reasoning. The "time" listed next to my FWH (30 minutes) doesn't really matter to me. I don't pay attention to BrewSmith at all here. I just add the hops to the collection bucket when draining my mash/tun. The time is inconsistent. Could be 30 minutes, could be 45 minutes, just however long it takes me sparge. I put "30 minutes" in my recipe to give people an idea of how long it takes me to sparge (roughly). I haven't found a consensus on how to calculate the IBU contribution for FWH. I follow the idea that FWH additions impart the same bitterness as a 15-20 minute addition, regardless of how long it takes to sparge (source). I guess they say that I should be setting it in BeerSmith to [Sparge Time] + [Boil Time]. I think that result seems a bit high to me. I won't speak to which way is right or wrong. Internet research is far from infallible, and so is BrewSmith sometimes I imagine. Until I see some science behind it, my opinion of FWH--if you want a consistent IBU content--is to dial in your FWH and do it the same way every time...or don't FWH so you can confidently use established mathematical methods for calculating IBUs.

4. I had no issues carbonating. I bottle conditioned at room temperature (70-75F I guess?). I did add a small amount of WLP007 to the bottling bucket just in case the yeast in suspension was dead (which it probably was). Not very much, I'm talking about 1-2 tsp (best guess) of yeast slurry from a starter I had made.

 

[mbauer013]

I could have used too much roasty type malts like black patent, roast and chocolate. It's decent, it's just not very sweet, and it's bitter like an IPA.

Here's what I want to change:

• Too roasty, use less roast malts.
• Too bitter, try a different hop schedule.
• Use the proper amount of yeast instead of OVER yeasting the beer.
• Boil longer
• Make it sweeter

QUOTE]

#1 and 2 above may be solved by cold steeping the dark malts. I made a darkness based recipe (I won't call it a clone as that wasn't what I was going for) to age in a whiskey barrel last year with my club. We cold steeped the dark grains overnight before brewing and just capped the second sparge with the grains and cold steeped liquor. The really reduce the astringent roasted flavors and brought out a lot more of the chocolate and coffee notes. Over all this one was great from fermentor to bottle with really no ageing needed to mellow harsh roasty tones.

 

[sidepart]

#1 and 2 above may be solved by cold steeping the dark malts. I made a darkness based recipe (I won't call it a clone as that wasn't what I was going for) to age in a whiskey barrel last year with my club. We cold steeped the dark grains overnight before brewing and just capped the second sparge with the grains and cold steeped liquor. The really reduce the astringent roasted flavors and brought out a lot more of the chocolate and coffee notes. Over all this one was great from fermentor to bottle with really no ageing needed to mellow harsh roasty tones.

Interesting idea. I wonder if the effect is related to how cold brewing coffee makes it less astringent and more palatable for beer. I probably won't try this in my Aberrant recipe, but I have one or two other recipes that I might try to mellow out like this.

 

[Sleepyemt]

Your other option would be to add the dark malts During the sparge. I haven't personally done it, but have read about good results

 

[sidepart]

Maybe I'll have to talk to Todd about Darkness personally tonight.

 

[dukedevil0]

Please do! I have a list of questions for him...some of which I believe we know the answer to but it would be nice to hear officially.
1) FWH or no? And if so, what's the split, both Amarillo/Simcoe?
2) Dry hopped or just WP? How much?
3) Golden Naked Oats or Flaked Oats?
4) Any Special B? Or is it really just extra dark crystal?

Prob have more but those were just off the top of my head. Might have to email him at some point.

 

[sidepart]

Please do! I have a list of questions for him...some of which I believe we know the answer to but it would be nice to hear officially.
1) FWH or no? And if so, what's the split, both Amarillo/Simcoe?
2) Dry hopped or just WP? How much?
3) Golden Naked Oats or Flaked Oats?
4) Any Special B? Or is it really just extra dark crystal?

Prob have more but those were just off the top of my head. Might have to email him at some point.

Todd already left by the time I started looking for him. Oh well. It was a wedding, probably best not to bug him about beer.

As a side-note I updated my thoughts above about the higher FG. Someone did an experiment with crystal malts. So I don't think my line of reasoning is 100% correct, but maybe partially correct. I don't think we should be removing the crystal malts from the FG equation all together...but maybe partially based on what I'm reading.

 

[syd138]

I'm bumping this thread because I am planning on brewing this up in a couple weeks.

Has anyone else tried to brew this?

 

[solbes]

I'm bumping this thread because I am planning on brewing this up in a couple weeks.

Has anyone else tried to brew this?

I'd love to hear how people did with this recipe also. Love me some Darkness, so mine is roughly patterned after it (won't be the same). I am going to use English finishing hops, so 'm sure it'll be a little different.

Brewing this as we speak:

9 lb Marris Otter
6 lb Marris Otter syrup, late addition (easier than trying to have a huge grain bill) (78.6% total)
1 lb Roasted Barley (4.6%)
8 oz Special B (2.3%)
6 oz pale chocolate (1.7%)
6 oz Crystal 80L (1.7)
8 oz flaked oats (2.3%)
1 lb of D180 syrup added a few days into fermentation (4.6%)

Est OG: 1.118

1 oz Warrior (13.4%) FWH
1 oz Warrior 60 min
2 oz UK Fuggle 15 min

Est IBU: 89

I have some bourbon whiskey barrel oak chunks that have sat in bourbon for a few months. I'll pitch the whole thing into the latter part of secondary (6-8 weeks). Cheers!

 

[syd138]

solbes..

I never got around to brewing this.. how did yours turn out?

 

[solbes]

Pretty good. I brewed on Nov 22, 2015, and bottled on Feb 21st. Hit 1.111 OG and finished at 1.024, for a 11.7% ABV with priming. Only other notable difference from the recipe above is I added 1 lb of light Munich to the recipe. About 6 oz total of bourbon went into secondary with the bourbon barrel chunks that had been soaking a long time.

I hope to crack my first bottle in a week or two, but I wouldn't be surprised if it needs more time to carb. Tasted pretty damn good at bottling, wasn't even all that hot from the 2 month secondary. Will probably slowly consume over the next 2-3 years.

 

[Minnesota_Micro]

Like many before myself, I have scoured the internet looking to make a darkness clone. I recently pulled off an AG clone, hitting OG of 1.124, and finishing at 1.033 hitting 11.98 abv.

A few misunderstandings out there...

• Darkness ABV is 12%, and not 10.5%
• does Darkness use Belgium Candi Dark Syrup/brewers crystals? not listed as ingredients on surly website, but is listed in the Barrel Aged variant
• Secondary aging cannot be 1+ years. Fresh out of the tap Darkness has a very prominent hop profile that quickly fades in bottles - hop schedule?

After cold crashing secondary (brewed on new year's Eve 2016) I've recently kegged the beer, and waiting to hit carbing levels. So far, this beer has a strong resemblance to Darkness, but is missing the thick body and cloying sweetness. I did not include brewer's crystals or Candi syrup. My next brew attempt will include 1 pound of dark Candi Syrup, and approximately 5% or 6% brewer's crystals.
Other than a prominent hop characteristic this beer is smooth and about ready to drink after about 6 weeks, surprisingly.

Anyways I'm hoping to jump start this thread with new information regarding dialing in darkness. Recipe to be posted soon.

 

[skibb]

The beer's ABV has changed over the past few years - I believe that it is now barrel aged? I did hear that somewhere but I haven't confirmed it yet. Also it's my understanding that when they use brewers crystals it's because they can't get the gravity that high with malt alone do to mash tun/space restrictions. Subbing maltodextrin out might be a nice way to ensure you get a higher FG. The beer finishes in the 1.040s

 

[Minnesota_Micro]

Here's the link to the regular darkness...
http://surlybrewing.com/beer/darkness-2016/

Here's the link to the BA variant of Darkness...
http://surlybrewing.com/beer/darkness-2016-barrel-aged/

Notice that there's different ingredients? Very strange that they list more ingredients for the BA variant.

 

[mumblingsages]

Minnesota_Micro what did you end up with as a recipe. I'm looking to clone it as well.

 

[shilinshuai]

Made this in January according to skibb's layout. Compared last night to the barrel aged 2017 darkness...other than missing the oak/whiskey notes this is a dead ringer for the retail version. Thanks for the recipe.

 

[bassmang4]

shilinshuai, what was your FG? I hit 1125 OG w skibbs recipe and it pooped out at 1045. Mashed too high, but did so based off a big dark barleywien w 1968 that went from 1127 to 1034. So I was a few point higher than my 1040 target. Drank the hydro sample and it didn't seem overly heavy for what I'd expect at 1045.

 

[shilinshuai]

Didn't measure he first time. Rebrewed with same proportions but with D180 instead of D2 since Midwest was out. Ended up at 1.03 with wy1968