super long boil?

[maida7]

I have some friends that often will do a stupid long boil for barley wines and strong scotch ales to build up the malty caramel flavors in the beer. I'm talking like 2-4 hour boil times. Does everybody do this? Personally, I've always stuck with a regular 60 min boil. For recipes with lotsa pilsner malt I will bump it up to 90 min to drive off DMS. But I've never done a wicked long boil for flavor. What do you think? Is this the magic technique that my friends belive it to be? Or can you save your propane and get a similar malty character from specialty malts?

PS: Those guys who do the long boils are making some fantastic beers so they must be doing something right.

 

[jlpred55]

I do 3-4 hr boils for my barleywine and RIS and that is about it. I only boil that long because I collect a lot of runnings and need to boil that long when starting out with 8-10gallons of pre boil volume. If I could collect enough runnings to get where I want to be first or second sparge then I would only boil 60-90 minutes but I can't since the grainbills are so huge and the mash and batch sparge takes so much volume.

I just did a barleywine yesterday with 22lbs of grain and it was a little under 4 hour boil. I started with 9 gallons pre boil and ended with 5.5 gallons in primary. Starting gravity was 1.103.

I have done an extended boil on a scottish ale, something like 3 hrs on the first runnings to boil down to a thick syrup (used all basemalt and no crystal) and then ran the rest of the sparge into the kettle and boiled for 60 minutes. Never again. Took too long and the results weren't much different than adding a half pound or a pound of medium crystal.

 

[motobrewer]

longest i've boiled is 90 on a RIS.

I plan on boiling a Celebrator clone for 3 hours, hopefully i'll get to that next month.

 

[Hammy71]

I boiled my RIS for 2 hours. Like already stated. For many high alcohol beers you need to have long boils. With so much grains you need to use a lot more water to sparge. With the extra water you need to boil longer to get your fermentation volume. I don't think they are doing it for the flavor, as much as the need to use a large amount of grain.

 

[maida7]

I boiled my RIS for 2 hours. Like already stated. For many high alcohol beers you need to have long boils. With so much grains you need to use a lot more water to sparge. With the extra water you need to boil longer to get your fermentation volume. I don't think they are doing it for the flavor, as much as the need to use a large amount of grain.

No they insist it makes a huge difference on the flavor. I also understand that long boils are also used to condense the wort and increase gravity. But I'm wondering how big a difference it makes on the taste. Like getting those dark fruits, rich caramel and toffee flavors. I've alwalys gotten that from specialty malts but in the past I was brewing extract beers and now that I have switched to all grain, I find the extract had a great deal of flavor that I'm no longer getting. I either need to tweak my recipes or extend my boil to get more rich melanoidin flavors in my beers. Or I could go back to extracts.

 

[jlpred55]

No they insist it makes a huge difference on the flavor. I also understand that long boils are also used to condense the wort and increase gravity. But I'm wondering how big a difference it makes on the taste. Like getting those dark fruits, rich caramel and toffee flavors. I've alwalys gotten that from specialty malts but in the past I was brewing extract beers and now that I have switched to all grain, I find the extract had a great deal of flavor that I'm no longer getting. I either need to tweak my recipes or extend my boil to get more rich melanoidin flavors in my beers. Or I could go back to extracts.

Please see. My previous response as to the long fing boil on the scottish ale. Made little difference as compared to the same recipe with a crystal replacement for the long boil. Try it for yourself and decide.

 

[Hex]

...I find the extract had a great deal of flavor that I'm no longer getting. I either need to tweak my recipes or extend my boil to get more rich melanoidin flavors in my beers. Or I could go back to extracts.

Which AG base malt are you comparing to which extract?

 

[Houblon]

2hr for BW and Bier de Garde.

Another way is take a 4L of the first runnings and boil it down to 1L, add that back into the kettle for a very rich flavor.

Yes its done (longer boil) alot for the flavor.
YMMV

 

[Clonefarmer]

No they insist it makes a huge difference on the flavor. I also understand that long boils are also used to condense the wort and increase gravity. But I'm wondering how big a difference it makes on the taste. Like getting those dark fruits, rich caramel and toffee flavors. I've alwalys gotten that from specialty malts but in the past I was brewing extract beers and now that I have switched to all grain, I find the extract had a great deal of flavor that I'm no longer getting. I either need to tweak my recipes or extend my boil to get more rich melanoidin flavors in my beers. Or I could go back to extracts.

You should get as much flavor from AG as extract. Are you using the same specialty malts?

Are you converting extract recipes or using totally new AG recipes?

Are you accounting for the difference in flavor of malt extract and base grains?

AG allows you to tweak recipes allot. If your not getting the flavor your looking for try tweaking the recipe.

 

[maida7]

Which AG base malt are you comparing to which extract?

When I was using extract, I was getting it all from morebeer. I believe it's briess liquid. I was using the light and pilsner LME and also the Bavarian wheat DME.

With all grain I use briess 2-row, weyermann pils and wheat.

 

[maida7]

2hr for BW and Bier de Garde.

Another way is take a 4L of the first runnings and boil it down to 1L, add that back into the kettle for a very rich flavor.

Yes its done (longer boil) alot for the flavor.
YMMV

Yeah that's what my friends are suggesting.

 

[Clonefarmer]

When I was using extract, I was getting it all from morebeer. I believe it's briess liquid. I was using the light and pilsner LME and also the Bavarian wheat DME.

With all grain I use briess 2-row, weyermann pils and wheat.

Which wheat? There is red wheat, white wheat and pale wheat that I know of. Depending on which ones you use you can get a wide range of wheat flavor.

 

[maida7]

You should get as much flavor from AG as extract. Are you using the same specialty malts?

Are you converting extract recipes or using totally new AG recipes?

Are you accounting for the difference in flavor of malt extract and base grains?

AG allows you to tweak recipes allot. If your not getting the flavor your looking for try tweaking the recipe.

There is definitely a difference in flavor from the extract to AG. It's much more apparent in high gravity malty beers. The extract has much more rich melaniodins and kettle carmelization character. I think it has to do with the oxidized sugars in the extract. Must be a result of the process they use to make the extract. They must boil the snot out of that stuff.

Yes, I'm using the same recipes and the same specialty malts. The difference in the recipes is that I now use grain for the base and not extract and I'm not getting the same beer.

This whole thread is about accounting for the difference between AG and extract. I'm trying to decide if I make up the difference with a longer boil or more specialty malts.

It's doesn't sound like there is a clear consensus. Perhaps both are viable options.

 

[maida7]

Which wheat? There is red wheat, white wheat and pale wheat that I know of. Depending on which ones you use you can get a wide range of wheat flavor.

What are the differences?

I've used the white wheat. Then I used a sack of Weyermann (i think it's red) wheat. Recently, I bought a sack of the briess white wheat but I have not brewed with that yet.

 

[Clonefarmer]

What are the differences?

I've used the white wheat. Then I used a sack of Weyermann (i think it's red) wheat. Recently, I bought a sack of the briess white wheat but I have not brewed with that yet.

Red wheat is darker and has kind of a bready flavor.

The white and pale are lighter in color and flavor. I always get white and pale confused with each other. They are close in flavor and description. Depending where you buy them the descriptions are reversed.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Please see. My previous response as to the long fing boil on the scottish ale. Made little difference as compared to the same recipe with a crystal replacement for the long boil. Try it for yourself and decide.

IME the flavors, aromas, and mouthfeel you get from boiling/caramelizing the first runnings (like with Scotch ales) are not the same as if you used crystal malts.

 

[riromero]

Yeah that's what my friends are suggesting.

For my strong scotch ale I boiled the first gallon or so of runnings down to an almost syrupy consistency before adding the rest of the wort. Works very well indeed.

 

[emjay]

I use Briess extracts and grains in partial mashes. I generally find the extract to be too rich and sweet, but to each his own. All of their extracts appear to be 50% 2-row, with 50% of the pilsen being pilsner malt, another 50% (total of 100%) of the golden light being 2-row, and 50% of the Bavarian wheat being being wheat malt (can't remember which but I'm pretty certain it's not red), 50% of the Munich being Munich malt, etc.

So when converting a recipe, try keeping that in mind and do the conversion yourself, since as far as I can tell, computer-based converters seem to do the conversions without regard to brand and the particular proportions.

 

[JustDandy]

from Brewmaster's Bible:

http://books.google.com/books?id=82Qbl90YdhQC&lpg=PT27&dq=homebrew bible&pg=PT67#v=onepage&q&f=false

When boiling for 3-4 hours the coagulated protein is dissolved back into the wort for a smoother beer, as well as creating darker more toasted/caramel flavors.