Suicide is an ugly, cowardly thing to do.

[Homercidal]

People who do this can't understand. They are literally incapable of making their thoughts and feelings rational. it might be hard for a "normal" person to grasp, but usually suicide follows mental illness. Mental illness that makes the persona's brain not able to think through, or feel a possible solution to their problems. Drugs and alcohol can seriously affect the brain and make these mental illnesses even worse.

There are MANY avenues for help if only people know about them and can get themselves to go seek it out. Unfortunately, many people do not know of the availablility of the help, or are unable to bring themselves to seek it out, for whatever reason. Maybe they are ashamed, or maybe they are just so screwed up in the head that they can't believe that anyone can fix them (many don't even know they are "broken") or their problems.

Until you can put yourself in their shoes and feel what they have felt, I suggest you not decide whether they are a coward or not. Perhaps they were sick, or had problems bigger than they knew how to deal with. Not everyone with personal problems feels comfortable talking about them to others, even close friends.

 

[thaworm69]

My mother took her own life in 2003. She tried getting help numerous times but it never seemed to help her. She tried anti-depressants ect... None of it seemed to work. Depression is very serious. She attempted a few times to swallow pills. I had to tackle her once and take a knife away from her while trying to dial 911. It was so sad..you feel so helpless for the person. It has a lifelong impact on basically EVERYONE that knew her. After that 911 call she was put in a center for 2 days and released. She took her own life that day. It is very hard to understand why she was released with only 2 days of help. Wondering if there was more the hospital could have done. I would never wish that feeling on my worst enemy. My mother was far from being a coward. She tried to get help numerous times at her own will. Her mental state was severely damaged due to the @sshole boyfriend she had. I truly believe she felt she had absolutely no way out. But a coward she was not! That being said I feel for the OP. It never seems to get much easier, you learn to cope and remember the good parts. I wish you the best.

 

[LTownLiquorPig]

No real constructive comment to add, other than depression sucks, drugs and therapy don't always help a great deal and you wouldn't know how you would handle it until you go though it.

 

[headbanger]

People who take the path of suicide obviously have reasons and rational for what they do, the decision they ultimately make. Maybe we, the others that their lives have touched, who can't understand this decision can't understand it because we are not supposed to.

 

[Dan]

I don't know how common suicide is but in my life I've known of 4, two of them were my cousins, one was a brother Navy Chief.

And one was the child of my brother's neighbor who hung herself from a tree in her front yard, she was 12 years old. Maybe she thought somebody would catch her before it happened but nobody did. If that isn't calling out I don't know what is.

I don't know why they did it, especially the 12 year old. Nothing will ever make sense of it. It is the most selfish act one can do and it is an act that is not carried through with a clear mind. I know the 3 adults were all very inebriated when they killed them selves but the 12 year old girl? It's just sad, so very sad.

I'm sorry for your family's loss maxamus.

 

[Leadgolem]

People who do this can't understand. They are literally incapable of making their thoughts and feelings rational. it might be hard for a "normal" person to grasp, but usually suicide follows mental illness. Mental illness that makes the persona's brain not able to think through, or feel a possible solution to their problems. Drugs and alcohol can seriously affect the brain and make these mental illnesses even worse.

There are MANY avenues for help if only people know about them and can get themselves to go seek it out. Unfortunately, many people do not know of the availablility of the help, or are unable to bring themselves to seek it out, for whatever reason. Maybe they are ashamed, or maybe they are just so screwed up in the head that they can't believe that anyone can fix them (many don't even know they are "broken") or their problems.

Until you can put yourself in their shoes and feel what they have felt, I suggest you not decide whether they are a coward or not. Perhaps they were sick, or had problems bigger than they knew how to deal with. Not everyone with personal problems feels comfortable talking about them to others, even close friends.

Thank you for being understanding.

However, I cannot agree that being suicidal is inherently the product of a disturbed mind. Most mental disorders have symptoms that are much more pervasive. Being suicidal, doesn't necessarily impair logical thinking. Outside of whatever situation has lead to the suicidal feelings.

I can tell you from my own experience that, even retrospectively, I was not suffering from any impairment in my logic skills. My job requires a lot of logical deduction and math. If I did have a problem it would have been glaringly obvious. I also wasn't suffering from any disordered thinking. The only thing that you could consider crazy, outside of the desire to die, was the excessive drinking.

I was drinking as much as I was because, just before you pass out drunk, you are emotionally numb for a few minutes. It isn't much, but it was the only refuge I had.

In short, I believed something to be true that made the rest of my life irrelevant, except as a source of pain. The only reason I am alive is that I gave my word to do something. Something I couldn't do if I was dead. I found that keeping my word was more important to me then my life. I mean that I would die to keep my word, or live. No matter how much pain that meant. Whichever was required.

Man was I pissed off when I realized I couldn't just kill myself.

Sharing any of this is extremely painful. Please don't offer sympathy, I neither need nor want any. I'm just hoping someone else in the same situation will read this and it will help them realize they aren't alone.

 

[homebrewdad]

Thank you for being understanding.

However, I cannot agree that being suicidal is inherently the product of a disturbed mind. Most mental disorders have symptoms that are much more pervasive. Being suicidal, doesn't necessarily impair logical thinking. Outside of whatever situation has lead to the suicidal feelings.

I can tell you from my own experience that, even retrospectively, I was not suffering from any impairment in my logic skills. My job requires a lot of logical deduction and math. If I did have a problem it would have been glaringly obvious. I also wasn't suffering from any disordered thinking. The only thing that you could consider crazy, outside of the desire to die, was the excessive drinking.

I was drinking as much as I was because, just before you pass out drunk, you are emotionally numb for a few minutes. It isn't much, but it was the only refuge I had.

In short, I believed something to be true that made the rest of my life irrelevant, except as a source of pain. The only reason I am alive is that I gave my word to do something. Something I couldn't do if I was dead. I found that keeping my word was more important to me then my life. I mean that I would die to keep my word, or live. No matter how much pain that meant. Whichever was required.

Man was I pissed off when I realized I couldn't just kill myself.

Sharing any of this is extremely painful. Please don't offer sympathy, I neither need nor want any. I'm just hoping someone else in the same situation will read this and it will help them realize they aren't alone.

The capability for rational, analytical thought does not exclude mental illness. Suicide is typically a decision only made in a flawed mental/emotional state.

My brother killed himself ten years ago, and I still haven't gotten over it. I've been angry, I've been confused... mostly, I just greive.

 

[Airborneguy]

About 5 years ago, a kid I worked with shot himself after hitting a parked car while driving drunk. To this day his mother bugs the police department to investigate whether he was actually murdered. My friend who responded said his firearm was still in his hand. He did it very close to my house, so I pass the small memorial his mother keeps up fairly frequently. I always shake my head. I can't imagine how someone would choose to put their family through something so horrible.

 

[CatHead]

I had a longer post but basically just wanted to add that we try to add logical thought to people that are past that point.

 

[Dan]

About 5 years ago, a kid I worked with shot himself after hitting a parked car while driving drunk. To this day his mother bugs the police department to investigate whether he was actually murdered. My friend who responded said his firearm was still in his hand. He did it very close to my house, so I pass the small memorial his mother keeps up fairly frequently. I always shake my head. I can't imagine how someone would choose to put their family through something so horrible.

I don't think anybody intentionally puts their family through the process. By the time they pull the trigger they are already lost, in so many ways. Would be wonderful if we could prevent it. Not sure if that is achievable or not. But it does make me think twice about what I say and how I treat people. We are all going to die someday. But why earlier than later? Suicide is throwing life away. It goes against the will to live. If I could stop another suicide, had the magic answer to help a person not do that I would. Suicide leaves us feeling helpless and angry.

 

[Lushife]

I s there the possibility that your cousin went off some serious medication. Not all to long ago I went off klonopin and the intensity of the withdrawal and mind f--- of it made me start thinking of killing myself. Thankfully I got through it but stuff like that happens. I've seen a lot of premature death in my life and it sucks I hope you are getting through it well and can help your cousins kids.

 

[Airborneguy]

We are all going to die someday. But why earlier than later? Suicide is throwing life away.

I was just thinking about this point today. My father told me this morning that his GF has about 6 months to live. She was fighting a very rare form of liver cancer, but just recently was told that there's not much hope. About 20 minutes later while drinking my coffee, I was reading a story about a guy who jumped off of the bridge I drive over every day for work. My Dad's GF was the first thought in my mind. She'd probably do anything to have what that guy gave up so that she could be there for her young kids. It's a damn shame.

 

[lumpher]

my wife's first cousin was thrown out by his mother for drug use. the mother told him to get out until he could "become a human". he spent most of the night under her porch. around 5 a.m., loud shotgun blast. she found her son, minus his head, under the porch. totally messed up.

 

[Leadgolem]

The capability for rational, analytical thought does not exclude mental illness. Suicide is typically a decision only made in a flawed mental/emotional state.

My brother killed himself ten years ago, and I still haven't gotten over it. I've been angry, I've been confused... mostly, I just greive.

True. It is also true that the desire to end your own life does not make someone mentally ill.

Trying to shove the desire to suicide into a big black box labeled "mental illness" is just avoiding the issue. Perfectly normally, well balanced, well adjusted people suffer trauma that causes them to want to end their own lives. They aren't sick, they are emotionally wounded. That kind of emotional wound can, and does, happen to people all the time. It doesn't make then weak to be in more pain then they can tolerate.

It's like being in a bad car accident. It's going to hurt. More then you knew it was possible to hurt, but not forever. It's going to leave scars, and places that ache sometimes. It does eventually get better though.

What they need is time, and a little comfort. They don't need someone to trying to dissect there every action and reaction. The mental health professional I went to see was utterly useless. As I said, I wasn't mentally ill. A psychiatrists job isn't to provide comfort, it's to treat mental illness. What I wish I had done, was tell my family how I felt. It would have helped to know that someone loved me. Not a great deal, but some.

That doesn't mean that someone who takes their own life isn't mentally ill. However, it isn't "ipso facto" the case.



Please excuse me if I have offended anyone. That is not my intention, nor can any human ever truly tell what is going on inside another. My statements are based on my own personal experience, and I am certainly to close to the experience to be entirely objective.

 

[Dan]

Wow, this thread.

While I was in the Navy we had to take every suicide gesture as it was an outcry for help. Do you know how many young disturbed Sailors figured this out and used it? Makes you a bit numb after awhile to the BS. Like the boy that cried wolf thing. I have found in my dealing with it there have been no obvious signs. Acting out, trying to unsuccessfully kill yourself is certainly one. But more are less ostentatious, they are people who have bottled everything up. I wouldn't say gun control would make a difference. By the time a person wants to kill themselves, the manner doesn't matter.

 

[bottlebomber]

True Dan.. In fact from my experience the people who talk about killing themselves are the more narcissistic, less likely to kill themselves people. For example my ex-MIL would constantly talk about killing herself. And yet I don't think I've met anyone more in love with themselves than that woman. Then there's my friends dad. He probably had that old .38 pistol for 30 years. Maybe he looked at it and thought about it every day, maybe he got a box of ammo that morning knowing only one round would ever be fired. Either way we never saw it coming.

 

[Dan]

And that's the worry, the problem. I'm just talking from experience, no advanced psychological educations here. As much as you want to see it coming and make a difference, you won't. I'm out of my realm now. Have been since I first posted on this thread. I wish some psychiatrist and ministers would throw in.

 

[bottlebomber]

And that's the worry, the problem. I'm just talking from experience, no advanced psychological educations here. As much as you want to see it coming and make a difference, you won't. I'm out of my realm now. Have been since I first posted on this thread. I wish some psychiatrist and ministers would throw in.

If we could get Malfet involved he'd probably have some interesting insight. He has no special diploma himself as far as I know, but his wife works closely with the mentally ill and I know he takes interest in her work. And he's an all around clever fellow besides.

 

[Dan]

If we could get Malfet involved he'd probably have some interesting insight. He has no special diploma himself as far as I know, but his wife works closely with the mentally ill and I know he takes interest in her work. And he's an all around clever fellow besides.

I'd really like to hear Malfet's take. He seems to be a guy who see's things unemotionally and takes a logical stance. I once posted on a debate thread and he replied. I had no ground for what I said and he didn't make me feel like an idiot but did have a logical argument for my dumb words.

 

[lumpher]

And that's the worry, the problem. I'm just talking from experience, no advanced psychological educations here. As much as you want to see it coming and make a difference, you won't. I'm out of my realm now. Have been since I first posted on this thread. I wish some psychiatrist and ministers would throw in.

i do have a b.a. in psychology, but i have a higher degree in information systems. computers make more sense to me, and are less likely to pull the trigger or jump off a bridge. at least i can help a pc...

 

[Leadgolem]

I know I didn't say anything to anybody until after I had made the decision to refrain from killing myself. Walking that knife edge between the amount of pain you would choose not to tolerate if you had the choice, and the amount you can tolerate, sucks donkey balls.

When your stuck there it's odd. You don't do anything that is high risk or anything. You're just kinda disappointed when something that might have killed you didn't.

I remember spinning out driving to work in my truck. I wasn't driving recklessly or even aggressively. I just hit a patch of black ice. Even while I was trying to regain control I was hoping I would flip my truck or something and break my neck. I remember being disappointed when nothing really happened. I pulled my truck back onto the road with no damage, I wasn't even late for work.

It was kinda like checking the numbers on your lottery ticket when none of them match. Not a surprise, but a little disappointing.

You see, if I had died accidentally then I wasn't breaking my word. I wouldn't be responsible for the thing that ended my life.

That's a very odd emotional state. When you can't conceive of anything more painful then continuing to live, it isn't possible for anything to scare you. You do have to think more. All of your normal instincts for self preservation are shut down. If you don't fill that gap with your mind, then you could end up dead anyway. Not because you are actually trying to kill yourself, but because the normal instinct that would have saved your life isn't working.

 

[Dan]

I know I didn't say anything to anybody until after I had made the decision to refrain from killing myself. Walking that knife edge between the amount of pain you would choose not to tolerate if you had the choice, and the amount you can tolerate, sucks donkey balls.

When your stuck there it's odd. You don't do anything that is high risk or anything. You're just kinda disappointed when something that might have killed you didn't.

I remember spinning out driving to work in my truck. I wasn't driving recklessly or even aggressively. I just hit a patch of black ice. Even while I was trying to regain control I was hoping I would flip my truck or something and break my neck. I remember being disappointed when nothing really happened. I pulled my truck back onto the road with no damage, I wasn't even late for work.

It was kinda like checking the numbers on your lottery ticket when none of them match. Not a surprise, but a little disappointing.

You see, if I had died accidentally then I wasn't breaking my word. I wouldn't be responsible for the thing that ended my life.

That's a very odd emotional state. When you can't conceive of anything more painful then continuing to live, it isn't possible for anything to scare you. You do have to think more. All of your normal instincts for self preservation are shut down. If you don't fill that gap with your mind, then you could end up dead anyway. Not because you are actually trying to kill yourself, but because the normal instinct that would have saved your life isn't working.

How are you now?

 

[jbaysurfer]

I can't seem to delete this post, so just editing it away. Had second thoughts about saying what I was going to say.

 

[Dan]

I can't seem to delete this post, so just editing it away. Had second thoughts about saying what I was going to say.

This isn't a comfortable subject for anybody. Say what you got to say. No judging here.

 

[jbaysurfer]

This isn't a comfortable subject for anybody. Say what you got to say. No judging here.

Appreciate the gesture, but I think you said it best (for me anyway) when you said:

I'm out of my realm now. Have been since I first posted on this thread. I wish some psychiatrist and ministers would throw in.

I don't see suicide victims as cowards. I'll just say that. I see them as victims of mental illness, and in doing so, I acknowledge that being suicidal doesn't literally require mental illness, but I believe in the vast majority of cases it is indeed a result of mental illness.

 

[mcbaumannerb]

Sorry about all the stress and pain you and your family are going through maxamuus - there is no easy way through it.

My cousin killed himself four years ago - right after his second child was born and it was very devastating. He had plenty of issues in his life that contributed to this, I can't even pretend to understand what led him to make his choice. Since then his wife and daughters moved and have completely cut off contact with the rest of the family (even though all of us reached out to her multiple times.) My uncle (his dad) passed away a year and a half later and there is little doubt in my mind that this contributed to his decline greatly.

My only non-professional advice would be to talk about it with your family - if everyone acts embarrassed or guilty about it then her death can have even longer lasting effects.

Best of luck with this terrible situation.

 

[Grantman1]

Suicide is not something that any of us are likely going to be able to understand, unless maybe you've faced it before. Calling someone a coward or saying they should have "just asked for help" are simplifications to something much more complex than most can imagine. I would have to believe that most people in these positions feel that, for some reason or another, no one can really help them.

In defense of the accusatory, it's hard to channel our emotions when something like this happens to someone close to us.

When the time is right, you could start an annual barley wine (or something similar) in the person's honor. May sound cheesy, but that's what I'm doing for a friend who departed earlier this year.

 

[Dan]

When the time is right, you could start an annual barley wine (or something similar) in the person's honor. May sound cheesy, but that's what I'm doing for a friend who departed earlier this year.

That is a coping method and nothing wrong with it.

Just wanted to say that.

 

[maxamuus]

Sorry if my inital post came off a little harsh. At first i was upset, then it just turned to anger that such a young beautiful woman with kids could do such a thing.

I guess its not for me to judge.

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/saltlaketribune/obituary.aspx?pid=162100180#fbLoggedOut

 

[bottlebomber]

Very pretty. Very strange indeed..