Suggestions on Saison

[Tsekourian]

Ok now, some friends of mine are organizing a series of style competitions, and the first one is Saison (the only rules is that it falls within BJCP regulations, with a starting gravity though lower than 1051). So, from what I remember of the classic Saison examples (I have years to drink a classic Saison), we need a fairly dry, somewhat Belgian, slightly bitter, and definitely spicy-lemony. So I came up with the following recipe. Any suggestions? It definitely falls inside the boundaries of the style, but I wanted to give it a little twist, one that won't take it far away though. But, as you see it, will it remind a saison??


Type: All Grain - BIAB
Batch Size (fermenter): 18,00 l
Boil Size: 30,29 l
Boil Time: 69 min
End of Boil Volume 20,63 l
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70,00 %
Final Bottling Volume: 16,00 l
Est Mash Efficiency 77,2 %
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage


Ingredients

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
3,00 kg Pilsner (Thracian Blonde) (4,0 EBC) Grain 1 73,2 %
0,40 kg Rye Malt (9,3 EBC) Grain 2 9,8 %
0,30 kg Wheat Malt (3,1 EBC) Grain 4 7,3 %
0,30 kg Aroma Malt (300,0 EBC) Grain 3 7,3 %
0,10 kg Sour Malt (Sauermalz) (2,8 EBC) Grain 5 2,4 %
5,00 g Polaris [18,00 %] - Boil 60,0 min Hop 6 14,9 IBUs
15,00 g Sorachi Ace [13,00 %] - Boil 5,0 min Hop 8 5,4 IBUs
15,00 g Amarillo [9,20 %] - Boil 5,0 min Hop 7 3,8 IBUs
25,00 g Sorachi Ace [13,00 %] - Dry Hop 4,0 Days Hop 10 0,0 IBUs
1,0 pkg Belgian Ale Yeast (Mangrove Jack's #M27) Yeast 9 -


Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1,049 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1,007 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5,6 %
Bitterness: 24,1 IBUs
Calories: 453,1 kcal/l
Est Color: 25,1 EBC
Mash Name: BIAB, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 4,10 kg
Grain Temperature: 22,2 C

The only change that comes to mind at a first glance is the yeast. I can't find any liquid yeast at the moment so I have to play with dry yeasts. I have tried Danstar's Belle Saison before, found it to be TOO spicy, so I thought of trying Mangrove Jack's this time.

 

[m00ps]

I've used that yeast, belle saison, and about every liquid saison yeast. Its pretty similar to belle saison. Some even think its the same. if you want to minimize spicy character, run it very hot. I mean like into the 90s. Lower temps will get you spicier flavors, but it will be fruitier at higher temps.

The other option would be to harvest some yeast from something like saison dupont. Ive had good luck culturing various dregs from naturally conditioned belgians

 

[Bosh]

Not sure that I'd trust that FG estimation. My saisons have blown right past that with similar OGs.

 

[Tsekourian]

I've used that yeast, belle saison, and about every liquid saison yeast. Its pretty similar to belle saison. Some even think its the same. if you want to minimize spicy character, run it very hot. I mean like into the 90s. Lower temps will get you spicier flavors, but it will be fruitier at higher temps.

The other option would be to harvest some yeast from something like saison dupont. Ive had good luck culturing various dregs from naturally conditioned belgians

I was thinking of harvesting from Fantome saisons or classic Saison Duponts, as an alternative... How much do I need for a 5-gallon batch??

 

[Tsekourian]

Not sure that I'd trust that FG estimation. My saisons have blown right past that with similar OGs.

Mine too, Bosh. That's why I'm thinking of using the Saison yeast from Mangrove Jack's. Says it doesn't ferment like a super duper extra strong Saison yeast. If it reaches 1002-3 though, no problem really!!! It will be a more true and classic Saison! :cross:

 

[m00ps]

I was thinking of harvesting from Fantome saisons or classic Saison Duponts, as an alternative... How much do I need for a 5-gallon batch??

I've got both of those strains but from a yeast lab. Id personally reccomend dupont since its rumored that they have multiple strains and the wyeast/white labs version is just a single isolate. Explains why its so hard to get that signature dupont character.

I also am pretty sure that fantome uses bacteria and brett in their beers which is why they are so incredibly funky on the nose. The fantome yeast I got is definitely a saison yeast with a nice peppery zing to it, but it doesnt even come close in taste to any fantome beer. So you can harvest from fantome if you want, but youd need to take sanitary precautions working with bugs

I usually do a 1.6L starter for my 5gal batches of reasonable OG. I think around 2L is more recommended, but I have 2L flasks and 1.6L is about the limit. Ive never had an issue with lag time though using the 1.6L

 

[Tsekourian]

Hmmm, well then, brewing the recipe this Sunday with the Mangrove Jack's yeast. I want to test it, and maybe stress it a little. Start at ambient temperature and raise it after 2-3 days, see what it gives, and compare it to the Belle Saison yeast strain. Thanks a lot guys!!

 

[m00ps]

Ive only used that one once, but it is very similar (if not identical) to Belle Saison. I used it once by itself then blended with with harvested dupont yeast for my first yeast blend that i kicked around for a while.

The higher you push the temps the more fruity and less spicy it'll turn out.

 

[m00ps]

Hmmm, well then, brewing the recipe this Sunday with the Mangrove Jack's yeast. I want to test it, and maybe stress it a little. Start at ambient temperature and raise it after 2-3 days, see what it gives, and compare it to the Belle Saison yeast strain. Thanks a lot guys!!

how did mangrove jacks compare to belle saison. I remember some people speculating it was the same strain

 

[Tsekourian]

how did mangrove jacks compare to belle saison. I remember some people speculating it was the same strain

Fermentation wise, this yeast literally ate everything, I achieved 92% attenuation if I remember correctly!!!!! The taste is not as the Belle Saison, at least not the way I remember it... and it wasn't that fruity and spicy, maybe because it didn't ferment at the higher end of the spectrum...

I want to try it again, in a fairly simple grain-bill, 80% pils, 20% wheat, just to get a better understanding of the yeast flavor profile...