Substituting American for European Grains

[ChiechiBrouw]

I've finally registered after months of Google telling me that this was the place to be for home brewing, so this is my first post And I'm pretty new to AG brewing, so forgive me for being green.

I live in Holland, so my focus is on brewing all the tasty American beer styles that I can't find here. However, this presents a problem, as I cannot find American grains. Hops are less of a problem because anything I can't find here can be shipped from the US, but shipping rates increase exponentially past 2.25 lbs. Setting aside for a moment the headache of sorting out SRM, Lovibond, and EBC, I'm wondering how big of an impact grain substitutions have on the final flavor and feel of the beer.

For example, Mirror Pond Pale Ale will forever remain my first love (I grew up in Oregon) and I've tried to clone it here about five or six times, with varying degrees of success. Right now I have my "Spiegel Pond Pale Ale" on tap, and it's a very good beer, but it has a very wet, dense feel, while Mirror Pond is a clean, light beer. The recipe called for 3 kg of pale malt and 0.454 kg of 20 °L crystal malt. The selection of malts I have available to me (without ordering from the UK) is summarized here. I used Brewferm Pale 7 EBC for the base malt, and Cara-amber 60 EBC for the crystal malt. The color is spot on (though it darkened a bit during the dry hopping, which was a first for me) and the flavor is close, but it just doesn't "feel" right. I'm still working on sorting out all the unit and language conversions for my local city water report, but I can say that it has no taste and no anomalously high or low minerals, and it is not treated with halogens--so water is not my prime suspect at the moment.

I suppose what I'd appreciate help with is separating out the effect of the grain substitution from all of the other quirks of my home brewing workflow so I know at least how close I can expect to get, particularly with such a simple recipe (just pale malt, crystal malt, cascade hops).

 

[beerkrump]

What was your mash temperature? If it was closer to 160° than 150°, the amount of residual sugars in the brew could be the reason for the heaviness.

 

[DrawTap88]

Welcome to the boards. My advice is that changing the maltster from the grain that is used in the Mirror Pond to any other maltster's grain of the same name/style will make the beer a little different. Getting close with the grains you have or are able to get, using your brewing processes and equipment, and the style of your fermenters may be as good as it gets.

 

[o4_srt]

What was your mash temperature? If it was closer to 160° than 150°, the amount of residual sugars in the brew could be the reason for the heaviness.

+1 if it's a lighter feeling beer, mash around 150 for up to 90 minutes. This will result in more fermentable sugar, which will give you a lower final gravity. The lower the FG, the dryer the beer is, and the more crisp/light/quenching the beer will feel. Also, upping the carbonation a bit will help with this as well.

As long as the diastatic power of the grain is similar (us and uk 2 row are damn near identical in this regard), the only difference you may notice is slight flavor and color differences, but they will be very slight.

 

[ChiechiBrouw]

What was your mash temperature? If it was closer to 160° than 150°, the amount of residual sugars in the brew could be the reason for the heaviness.

Oh, right I forgot to mention:

OG 1.062
FG 1.015

Mash temp 158 °F, so yah, very close to 160... Like I said, I'm pretty new to AG brewing; if I lower the mash temp I will have less residual sugars? Is this because I extract fewer oligosaccharides to begin with, i.e., that my OG will come down too, or just the FG (i.e., better conversion and more fermentable sugars)? Either way is fine, I'm just curious to understand the connection between body and mash temperature... (Less than 24 hours on this forum and I'm already learning!)

 

[ChiechiBrouw]

As long as the diastatic power of the grain is similar (us and uk 2 row are damn near identical in this regard), the only difference you may notice is slight flavor and color differences, but they will be very slight.

Thanks for the very very concise answer, but just so I understand:

I usually just trust Beersmith to do the math for me, and I hit the OG on the nose almost every time... So can I assume that the diastatic power is either the same, or is being converted properly?

 

[DeafSmith]

Have you tried the recipe in the BYO 250 Classic Clone Recipe magazine (page 59-60)? This one says OG = 1.052, FG = 1.013 and mash at 152º F. I have no idea if it's a good recipe or not - haven't tried either the clone recipe or the original beer.

 

[o4_srt]

Thanks for the very very concise answer, but just so I understand:

I usually just trust Beersmith to do the math for me, and I hit the OG on the nose almost every time... So can I assume that the diastatic power is either the same, or is being converted properly?

Correct, beersmith calculations use the gravity of the base malt for their gravity calculations. The software I use lists both us and uk 2 row as 1.036. Additionally, color and taste differences should me relatively minuscule.

Use what you can, and lower mash temperature, and the final product should be closer to what you are going for.

 

[ChiechiBrouw]

Have you tried the recipe in the BYO 250 Classic Clone Recipe magazine (page 59-60)? This one says OG = 1.052, FG = 1.013 and mash at 152º F. I have no idea if it's a good recipe or not - haven't tried either the clone recipe or the original beer.

No, not yet, but upon closer inspection, the recipe I'm using (from North American Clonebrews) calls for a mash temp of 152º F (but 1.044->1.008).

 

[beerkrump]

Oh, right I forgot to mention:

OG 1.062
FG 1.015

Mash temp 158 °F, so yah, very close to 160... Like I said, I'm pretty new to AG brewing; if I lower the mash temp I will have less residual sugars? Is this because I extract fewer oligosaccharides to begin with, i.e., that my OG will come down too, or just the FG (i.e., better conversion and more fermentable sugars)? Either way is fine, I'm just curious to understand the connection between body and mash temperature... (Less than 24 hours on this forum and I'm already learning!)

Your OG will be very close and your FG will be lower. Try mashing at 152°.

Read John Palmer's 'How to Brew'. Great section that explains the actions of enzymes during the mash and which enzymes are more active at which temperatures.

 

[BigEd]

I've finally registered after months of Google telling me that this was the place to be for home brewing, so this is my first post And I'm pretty new to AG brewing, so forgive me for being green.

I live in Holland, so my focus is on brewing all the tasty American beer styles that I can't find here. However, this presents a problem, as I cannot find American grains. Hops are less of a problem because anything I can't find here can be shipped from the US, but shipping rates increase exponentially past 2.25 lbs. Setting aside for a moment the headache of sorting out SRM, Lovibond, and EBC, I'm wondering how big of an impact grain substitutions have on the final flavor and feel of the beer.

For example, Mirror Pond Pale Ale will forever remain my first love (I grew up in Oregon) and I've tried to clone it here about five or six times, with varying degrees of success. Right now I have my "Spiegel Pond Pale Ale" on tap, and it's a very good beer, but it has a very wet, dense feel, while Mirror Pond is a clean, light beer. The recipe called for 3 kg of pale malt and 0.454 kg of 20 °L crystal malt. The selection of malts I have available to me (without ordering from the UK) is summarized here. I used Brewferm Pale 7 EBC for the base malt, and Cara-amber 60 EBC for the crystal malt. The color is spot on (though it darkened a bit during the dry hopping, which was a first for me) and the flavor is close, but it just doesn't "feel" right. I'm still working on sorting out all the unit and language conversions for my local city water report, but I can say that it has no taste and no anomalously high or low minerals, and it is not treated with halogens--so water is not my prime suspect at the moment.

I suppose what I'd appreciate help with is separating out the effect of the grain substitution from all of the other quirks of my home brewing workflow so I know at least how close I can expect to get, particularly with such a simple recipe (just pale malt, crystal malt, cascade hops).

If you are trying to brew American styles the British Lager malt would be your best bet as a sub. It is still going to be a little richer in flavor and perhaps a tad darker than North American pale malt although I would not consider the increase in flavor a bad thing. You could reduce slightly the amount of specialty malts called for in printed recipes that specify North American malts.

 

[ChiechiBrouw]

If you are trying to brew American styles the British Lager malt would be your best bet as a sub. It is still going to be a little richer in flavor and perhaps a tad darker than North American pale malt although I would not consider the increase in flavor a bad thing. You could reduce slightly the amount of specialty malts called for in printed recipes that specify North American malts.

I was going to brew a summer ale next, but now I'm feeling inspired to take another crack at Mir Pon; thanks for the suggestions and info! I ordered some British Lager malts and fresh Cascade hops this morning, and I told the yeast to work up their apetites--next brew day is the first of May I will keep the mash below 152 °F and cut back a bit on the Cara-amber... This actually puts me on schedule to keg right after I get back from a trip home to Oregon, so I'll have a direct comparison.

And you know, I read The Joy of Homebrewing cover to cover while my very first extract kit was fermenting, but I think I need to read it again now that I have the equipment for AG brewing.

 

[o4_srt]

Check out how to brew, there is a free version on howtobrew.com

IMO, the all grain section in how to brew is much better than in the complete joy