Substitute of aged hops

[Lele]

Hi everybody, and greetings from Italy ...and sorry for my English
I want to start making some Lambic experimentations. I still haven't aged hops and in Italy it's impossible to buy them. I read somewhere that it's possible tu substitute aged hops using hops with very low AA or backing hops. It isn't as using real aged hops, but it's OK for beginners like me.
Is it true? Has somebody try these techniques? How does they work?

 

[RPh_Guy]

From my understanding if you are adding lab cultures of yeast bacteria, you do not need hops at all.

Check out this page: http://www.homebrewingstoredirectory.com/8-quick-questions-about-aged-hops-and-how-to-age-hops/

 

[Lele]

I read the article, but I think that hops are still necessary. I don't know if I didn't understand the article...

 

[RPh_Guy]

I read the article, but I think that hops are still necessary. I don't know if I didn't understand the article...

Aged hops are used only for anti-bacterial properties to prevent infection from wild sources of bacteria. If your source of yeast and bacteria are NOT wild (rather than from a lab or "dregs") your risk of infection is not high enough to necessitate the use of hops.

That article explains how to quickly age your own hops if you choose to use them, and also confirms the option you already mentioned to use low-alpha-acid hops in fairly low quantities.

If you want hops, go ahead and use them

 

[millsbrew]

I agree you don’t need hops. However, for my latest batch, I opened my packet of Saaz hops and left it in the freezer for a week. Tossed some in the boil for about 6 IBUs just to make sure wild bugs didn’t have an easy meal on my wort. Good luck.

 

[secondbase]

I've done a lot of sours without hops and they always end up aggressively sour. I have switched to always using hops in my sours and I'm seeing great results with the acidity. If you do not have access to aged hops, using low aa% hops like strisselspalt or saaz would be fine.

 

[Azura]

Aged hops are used only for anti-bacterial properties to prevent infection from wild sources of bacteria. If your source of yeast and bacteria are NOT wild (rather than from a lab or "dregs") your risk of infection is not high enough to necessitate the use of hops.

That article explains how to quickly age your own hops if you choose to use them, and also confirms the option you already mentioned to use low-alpha-acid hops in fairly low quantities.

If you want hops, go ahead and use them

Basically, almost everything you said is wrong. The point of using aged hops is to create flavors and aromas without introducing more than 15ibu. Most lacto strains are inhibited by worts with more than 15ibu. Some lacto such as L. Brevis can tolerate up to 25ibu. Some lacto is less tolerant than 10ibu. Brett can tolerate more ibu than sour beers can handle. Your idea of what makes something "wild" in this context is totally bogus.

The OP can use whatever hops he wants as long as they produce less than 10ibu in the wort. Fresh hops with less than 2%AA are possible candidates. To be on the safe side, use zero boil hops and dry hop with as much as you want before packaging.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Basically, almost everything you said is wrong.

LOL Yikes! All right let me sit down with this delicious sour beer and try to figure out how I was so misinformed...

The point of using aged hops is to create flavors and aromas without introducing more than 15ibu.

Just based on my experience I generally don't think of sour beer as having significant hop character in the beers I've tasted.
But don't take my word, here's what I get when I google "aged hops":

"When hops are aged they lose their bittering properties, but they do not lose their ability to prevent infection in the beer. This is why aged hops are perfect for brewing Lambic: they protect against wild bacteria infecting the batch, but they do not give the beer much bitterness." - from the article I already linked above.

"The main role of hops in a spontaneous fermentation is to inhibit heat tolerant Lactobacillus that would lower the wort pH before the Saccharomyces can complete its initial fermentation." - the mad fermentationist

"By using aged hops the beer still gets the antimicrobial properties that reduces the amount of bacteria and allows wild yeast to take hold early in the aging process.... The hops provide a subtle flavor profile that compliments the wild yeast flavors without adding bitterness." - mob craft beer blog focuses on the antibacterial properties but mentions flavor

"Very little character in a sour beer is coming from compounds added by the aged hops" - consensus from first google result thread on BA

"It is well known that lambic brewers use aged hops in their brews, in order to get the some of the antibacterial properties with little of the bitterness or flavor usually associated with hops. " - weird article from NB

"The preservative value of hops is not lost upon aging, however, and remains the primary reason for their use in lambic brewing, since the hops contribute virtually no aroma (long boil) and no bitterness (aged hops)" - book Lambic by Jean-Xavier Guinard (not from google)

"Aged hops still retain some antimicrobial properties and can be used for microbial inhibition. In addition to their antimicrobial activity, aged hops contribute important flavor and aroma compounds and precursors to beer." MTF wiki... OK they at least mention flavor compounds.
The MTF wiki does a great job explaining how aged hops can contribute some flavor precursors, so yeah! Use hops for slight flavor contribution! Personally I would absolutely use them rather than not, if possible.
However imho aged hops still don't NEED to be used for flavor and are far from crucial in a Lambic for a new brewer who is struggling to obtain them.

Most lacto strains are inhibited by worts with more than 15ibu. Some lacto such as L. Brevis can tolerate up to 25ibu. Some lacto is less tolerant than 10ibu. Brett can tolerate more ibu than sour beers can handle.

"Hops contain multiple compounds which are bacteriostatic. Alpha acids are the best understood, but other compounds such as beta acids, a number of polyphenols (e.g. xanthohumol), and even some of the aromatic oils (e.g. humulene) have been found to have some inhibitory effects on lactobacilli. The later compounds (especially the beta acids) are why aged hops retain inhibitory characteristics, despite being nearly devoid of alpha acids." from MTF wiki

This is why using IBU calculations from alpha acids (adjusted for aging.. and/or using low AA hops) will underestimate the anti-bacterial effect of hops contributions.
1. Wild Lacto and hops don't mix.
2. Domesticated Lacto species/strains may have some level of hop-tolerance depending on the particular strain and it's growth conditions.
3. Brett and hops are fine.
I can't tell whether we're disagreeing on these points.

Your idea of what makes something "wild" in this context is totally bogus.

I really have no idea what you mean. I said aged hops help prevent infection from wild microbes. Sources I quoted above say the same thing.
When I say "wild" I am meaning not bred in a lab or already found in commercial beer.

The OP can use whatever hops he wants as long as they produce less than 10ibu in the wort. Fresh hops with less than 2%AA are possible candidates. To be on the safe side, use zero boil hops and dry hop with as much as you want before packaging.

Aged hops obviously contribute different flavors than fresh hops, so I wouldn't say they are necessarily interchangeable with each other. Aged hops are traditional; fresh hops are not.
However I agree he sure can use whatever hops he wants. The article I linked initially said basically the same thing: "Replacing the aged hops in your recipe with a very low-alpha acid hop variety will give similar results. If you do this, aim for a final bitterness between 10 and 15 IBUs for the beer."

 

[Azura]

LOL Yikes! All right let me sit down with this delicious sour beer and try to figure out how I was so misinformed...

Just based on my experience I generally don't think of sour beer as having significant hop character in the beers I've tasted.
But don't take my word, here's what I get when I google "aged hops":

"When hops are aged they lose their bittering properties, but they do not lose their ability to prevent infection in the beer. This is why aged hops are perfect for brewing Lambic: they protect against wild bacteria infecting the batch, but they do not give the beer much bitterness." - from the article I already linked above.

"The main role of hops in a spontaneous fermentation is to inhibit heat tolerant Lactobacillus that would lower the wort pH before the Saccharomyces can complete its initial fermentation." - the mad fermentationist

"By using aged hops the beer still gets the antimicrobial properties that reduces the amount of bacteria and allows wild yeast to take hold early in the aging process.... The hops provide a subtle flavor profile that compliments the wild yeast flavors without adding bitterness." - mob craft beer blog focuses on the antibacterial properties but mentions flavor

"Very little character in a sour beer is coming from compounds added by the aged hops" - consensus from first google result thread on BA

"It is well known that lambic brewers use aged hops in their brews, in order to get the some of the antibacterial properties with little of the bitterness or flavor usually associated with hops. " - weird article from NB

"The preservative value of hops is not lost upon aging, however, and remains the primary reason for their use in lambic brewing, since the hops contribute virtually no aroma (long boil) and no bitterness (aged hops)" - book Lambic by Jean-Xavier Guinard (not from google)

"Aged hops still retain some antimicrobial properties and can be used for microbial inhibition. In addition to their antimicrobial activity, aged hops contribute important flavor and aroma compounds and precursors to beer." MTF wiki... OK they at least mention flavor compounds.
The MTF wiki does a great job explaining how aged hops can contribute some flavor precursors, so yeah! Use hops for slight flavor contribution! Personally I would absolutely use them rather than not, if possible.
However imho aged hops still don't NEED to be used for flavor and are far from crucial in a Lambic for a new brewer who is struggling to obtain them.


"Hops contain multiple compounds which are bacteriostatic. Alpha acids are the best understood, but other compounds such as beta acids, a number of polyphenols (e.g. xanthohumol), and even some of the aromatic oils (e.g. humulene) have been found to have some inhibitory effects on lactobacilli. The later compounds (especially the beta acids) are why aged hops retain inhibitory characteristics, despite being nearly devoid of alpha acids." from MTF wiki

This is why using IBU calculations from alpha acids (adjusted for aging.. and/or using low AA hops) will underestimate the anti-bacterial effect of hops contributions.
1. Wild Lacto and hops don't mix.
2. Domesticated Lacto species/strains may have some level of hop-tolerance depending on the particular strain and it's growth conditions.
3. Brett and hops are fine.
I can't tell whether we're disagreeing on these points.


I really have no idea what you mean. I said aged hops help prevent infection from wild microbes. Sources I quoted above say the same thing.
When I say "wild" I am meaning not bred in a lab or already found in commercial beer.

Aged hops obviously contribute different flavors than fresh hops, so I wouldn't say they are necessarily interchangeable with each other. Aged hops are traditional; fresh hops are not.
However I agree he sure can use whatever hops he wants. The article I linked initially said basically the same thing: "Replacing the aged hops in your recipe with a very low-alpha acid hop variety will give similar results. If you do this, aim for a final bitterness between 10 and 15 IBUs for the beer."

Wow! That's a lot of words. I could spend half the day knit picking your defensive diatribe with multiple internet references that hopefully satisfied your confirmation bias. Your post was so long and had so many questionable references that I forgot what we were disagreeing about. One of the points that you have foolishly chased is hops in this context are defending your sour ale wort from unwanted microbes. The only question I have for you is which microbes to they snub and why don't you want them fermenting your wild wort?

So I will start over and KISS. Low AA aged hops (3+ years old that were fresh at less than 3% AA) impart negligible ibu because they are typically less than 1.5% AA. However, if they were aged in crappy conditions, aka lambic style, they will impart funky feet cheese aroma and flavor to lambics without significantly inhibiting lacto. This is an attractive smell for some lambic people. :/

So if you have ever tasted or made a beer with aged hops that were suited for lambic, you definitely tasted the hops because they are FUNKY. Using too much aged hops CAN inhibit lacto regardless of ibu, but the flavor they impart would beyond the threshold of acceptable funk for the mayor of Funkybeertown.

Russian River and Cascade sours are both very good lines of sour ales that contain more than 15 ibu. Do you think they use the hops to waste money because no one can taste them? Nope, they use hops because they can taste what they contribute.

However, the safest homebrew bet on making a sour beer is to use ZERO kettle hops. Dump some steeped hop liquid long after lacto did its sour thing and / or dry hop before packaging.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Are you pals with FredTheCat? Sounds like you two might have some secret research that redefines the use of hops in beer. Sorry to confuse you by using too many words buddy, I'll try to make this shorter.

As far as I can tell you are literally the only person saying AGED hops are used mainly for flavor as opposed to inhibiting microbes.

Here are a couple more references for good measure:
"Brewing a lambic does take a little advanced planning as lambic is the only style that needs well-aged hops. There should be no hop aroma, flavor or bitterness in a lambic, but you do need the hops for their preservative properties." -BYO
"Any cheesy character should be expelled during the boil." - beer and wine journal

Which microbes don't I want in my wort during some type of spontaneous fermentation?
1. Clostridium spp. come to mind immediately as hop-sensitive microbes that I NEVER want growing. I can list more if this alone doesn't sufficiently answer your question, but maybe you like a little botulinum toxin in your beer.
2. Hops inhibit LAB (both Lacto and Pedio) to prevent rapid aggressive souring, which the brewers may not want (even in a sour beer).

Cheers

P.S. I have been to Cascade and their beers are awesome (but not hoppy or cheesy). Are you trying to say IBU equates to hop flavor? Time to learn some brewing basics and cut the rude attitude.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sorry for double posting, but take a look at the BJCP style guidelines for Lambics. No hop aroma. No hop flavor. "The aged hops are used more for preservative effects than bitterness, and makes actual bitterness levels difficult to estimate."

If you are crazy enough to try to dry hop with your aged hops or whatever you're doing to get a cheese taste, you're not making a Lambic.
Debating this fact has run its course for me. Happy brewing!

 

[Azura]

Are you pals with FredTheCat? Sounds like you two might have some secret research that redefines the use of hops in beer. Sorry to confuse you by using too many words buddy, I'll try to make this shorter.

As far as I can tell you are literally the only person saying AGED hops are used mainly for flavor as opposed to inhibiting microbes.

Here are a couple more references for good measure:
"Brewing a lambic does take a little advanced planning as lambic is the only style that needs well-aged hops. There should be no hop aroma, flavor or bitterness in a lambic, but you do need the hops for their preservative properties." -BYO
"Any cheesy character should be expelled during the boil." - beer and wine journal

Which microbes don't I want in my wort during some type of spontaneous fermentation?
1. Clostridium spp. come to mind immediately as hop-sensitive microbes that I NEVER want growing. I can list more if this alone doesn't sufficiently answer your question, but maybe you like a little botulinum toxin in your beer.
2. Hops inhibit LAB (both Lacto and Pedio) to prevent rapid aggressive souring, which the brewers may not want (even in a sour beer).

Cheers

P.S. I have been to Cascade and their beers are awesome (but not hoppy or cheesy). Are you trying to say IBU equates to hop flavor? Time to learn some brewing basics and cut the rude attitude.

Clearly, your post effort here is compensating for your fragile ego. You suffer from not knowing how to interpret TMI syndrome. At some point, I will address your first post that I broadly claimed was "basically all wrong" which subsequently triggered your prolific meltdown. Then you will wonder why you typed and Googled so many words.

As far as I can tell you are literally the only person saying AGED hops are used mainly for flavor as opposed to inhibiting microbes.

Ever heard of Cantillon? They use properly aged hops that produce funky cheese flavors. Their beer contains 60+ microbes that typical American sour beers don't contain including the icky bacteria you don't want. The aged hops aren't exactly an antimicrobial miracle. They produce flavor while not significantly inhibiting lacto.

Just because you have never heard anyone say it, doesn't make it false. However, it's quite obvious you have never used hops aged in the same manner as real Lambic brewers and you prefer to believe whatever you can Google to satisfy your confirmation bias.