Substitute for Munich malt.

[blkandrust]

I'm brewing a Munich Helles first thing tomorrow morning and have just noticed that the kit I ordered sent me 8oz of Carapils instead of the required 8oz of Munich. I have various crystal malts as well as Victory,Special B on hand.Recipe is 10lbs pils malt,4oz carafoam amd 8oz munich. Would I be better off to just add another lb of Pils malt?

 

[IslandLizard]

You could lightly toast 8 oz of Pilsner malt on a baking sheet in your oven at low temps, like 150-170F. Emphasis on lightly.
Taste it while it's toasting so you know when it's where you want it to be.
It's not the same as Munich, but will give you some extra color, and a little more of that fresh toasted biscuity flavor.

Or instead, add a little Victory, like 2-4 oz. It's much more potent in flavor/character than Munich, don't overdo it.

Don't use Special B, it's for darker Belgian beers, or crystal, you don't want to add any extra sweetness.

Did they send you a proper Lager yeast?

 

[BigEd]

I'd brew it with what they sent you. Munich Helles is, or at least should be, made with the same ingredients as a German Pilsner and that doesn't include Munich malt.

 

[blkandrust]

You could lightly toast 8 oz of Pilsner malt on a baking sheet in your oven at low temps, like 150-170F. Emphasis on lightly.
Taste it while it's toasting so you know when it's where you want it to be.
It's not the same as Munich, but will give you some extra color, and a little more of that fresh toasted biscuity flavor.

Or instead, add a little Victory, like 2-4 oz. It's much more potent in flavor/character than Munich, don't overdo it.

Don't use Special B, it's for darker Belgian beers, or crystal, you don't want to add any extra sweetness.

Did they send you a proper Lager yeast?

Thanks for the reply.I ordered WLP833 German Bock. I have a 2 liter starter on a stir plate.

 

[blkandrust]

Should I use the 8oz of Carapils they sent me,on top of the 4oz Carafoam?

 

[IslandLizard]

I'd brew it with what they sent you. Munich Helles is, or at least should be, made with the same ingredients as a German Pilsner and that doesn't include Munich malt.

That depends on the recipe and interpretation of the style. I do think a small % of Munich belongs in there.
Brewing Classic Styles (BCS) uses 12 oz of Munich as well as 4 oz of Melanoidin malt, the last one mostly to circumvent a decoction mash.

Should I use the 8oz of Carapils they sent me,on top of the 4oz Carafoam?

What malster is your Pilsner from?

Thanks for the reply.I ordered WLP833 German Bock. I have a 2 liter starter on a stir plate.

Alright!

 

[blkandrust]

That depends on the recipe and interpretation of the style. I do think a small % of Munich belongs in there.
Brewing Classic Styles (BCS) uses 12 oz of Munich as well as 4 oz of Melanoidin malt, the last one mostly to circumvent a decoction mash.

What malster is your Pilsner from?

Weyermann

Alright!

 

[brewbama]

Briess has the rights to the Carapils[emoji768] and Cara-Pils[emoji768] name in the US where as Weyermann calls their product “carafoam” stateside. They are theoretically the same (though Briess is probably produced from N American 2 row and Weyermann produced from European 2 row). This was determined by the courts a very, very long time ago.

The only substitute for Munich from one mfr is Munich from another mfr. You could attempt to roast your own as described above.

 

[bracconiere]

isn't munich malt, just kilned at 200f instead of lower temps.....? if the malt is dry, the enzymes won't denature...but it won't have carmelized sugar in it....like a crystal malt would, so it'll add diastatic power, roasty ness, but not carmeliness....if you just gently toast base malt....

 

[IslandLizard]

isn't munich malt, just kilned at 200f instead of lower temps.....? if the malt is dry, the enzymes won't denature...but it won't have carmelized sugar in it....like a crystal malt would, so it'll add diastatic power, roasty ness, but not carmeliness....if you just gently toast base malt....

^ Listen to this guy, he malts all his own grain used in brewing!

Thinking about it, 150-170F as I mentioned before does sound kinda low, maybe that's fine for the first stage, from green malt, to be raised afterward. Have you made Munich before?

I often toast flaked goods around 200-225F to give them a subtle toasty flavor.

 

[BigEd]

That depends on the recipe and interpretation of the style. I do think a small % of Munich belongs in there.
Brewing Classic Styles (BCS) uses 12 oz of Munich as well as 4 oz of Melanoidin malt, the last one mostly to circumvent a decoction mash.

What malster is your Pilsner from?

Alright!

Well we can agree to disagree here. I'll stand by an all-Pilsner Helles. Say, isn't Jamil (the author of the BCS book) a founding member of the "Don't do a decoction club. It adds no flavor to the beer"? At the same time many of these folks say to add Melanoidin malt to German recipes to simulate the effects of a decoction. It can't be both.

 

[bracconiere]

he malts all his own grain used in brewing!

i know when i set my oven to 170f, it goes up to 200f after the 12 hour time limit...and i get a great tasting, what i assume munich base malt that converts fine at 100% grain bill.....i just ended up having to mod my oven to go lower, because it's hard to do different things with 60L base malt.....lol

as long as it's dry enough you can get hot enough to roast it without killing the enzymes, and if you want carmelized sugar you have to wet mash the kernels at 150f...then roast....difference between munich, and base malt. And roast barley, and black patent.....

from morebeer: "Munich malts, on the other hand, are meant to be much darker, typically around 7 °SRM; they are also available in even darker versions of between 10 and 20 °SRM. To achieve these colors, the green malt is “stewed” under progressively higher air temperatures, which promotes a degree of saccharification of the malt before it is finally kilned at 212 °F (100 °C). The longer the malt is held at 212 °F, the darker the Munich malt will be."

if you want to try even harder to make munich with base malt, spritz it with a water sprayer to loosen up some of the enzymes, then throw it in the oven....

and damn @IslandLizard , he knows i'm drunk all day and can't talk straight! lol

 

[Vale71]

isn't munich malt, just kilned at 200f instead of lower temps.....?

Nope, there's a lot more to making a darker malt than just a higher final kilning temperature. It starts from raw barley selection to the malting schedule to a much more complex and lenghty kilning schedule ending at a higher final temperature.

 

[Robert65]

Nope, there's a lot more to making a darker malt than just a higher final kilning temperature. It starts from raw barley selection to the malting schedule to a much more complex and lenghty kilning schedule ending at a higher final temperature.

Munich malt is also kilned with the temperature increase beginning at a higher moisture content than Pilsner, Vienna or pale malts, so it shares some attributes with caramel malts (which are not the same as crystal.) You cannot make Munich from another base malt any more than you could make Pilsner malt from crystal. Each malt type has its own separate manufacturing process.

 

[IslandLizard]

Munich malt is also kilned with the temperature increase beginning at a higher moisture content than Pilsner, Vienna or pale malts, so it shares some attributes with caramel malts (which are not the same as crystal.) You cannot make Munich from another base malt any more than you could make Pilsner malt from crystal. Each malt type has its own separate manufacturing process.

I'm not claiming you can make true Munich (base) malt from Pilsner malt, but you can develop a similar flavor and color from it by toasting a few shades darker.
And of course, you can't get a make a base malt from a crystal or caramel. You can always toast a crystal or any other malt/grain darker, there's just no way to lighten them.

For the OP I think it's worth pursuing to make a darker version of 8 oz of Pilsner malt, in lieu of having Munich on hand.

 

[Robert65]

But because Munich is kilned moist and undergoes some degree of conversion and caramelization of sugars and melanoidin production, the flavor is very different from anything that can be developed by dry heat toasting a malt. Consider the difference between biscuit and melanoidin/aromatic malts. They are kilned at similar temperatures to similar colors, but one is kilned dry and the other moist from green malt. The end results are very different. I would suggest that the OP might get some of the flavor Munich would have provided from an ounce or two of a medium caramel malt, moreso than from a biscuit type. Or as some have suggested, brew the kit as delivered. It will still be in style.

 

[IslandLizard]

I'll stand by an all-Pilsner Helles

What makes that Helles any different than a Pilsner, aside from the hops? It should be maltier.

 

[Vale71]

What would make that Helles really different is some amount of decoction but that's probably still too advanced for the OP's experience level.

 

[IslandLizard]

But because Munich is kilned moist and undergoes some degree of conversion and caramelization of sugars and melanoidin production, the flavor is very different from anything that can be developed by dry heat toasting a malt. Consider the difference between biscuit and melanoidin/aromatic malts. They are kilned at similar temperatures to similar colors, but one is kilned dry and the other moist from green malt. The end results are very different. I would suggest that the OP might get some of the flavor Munich would have provided from an ounce or two of a medium caramel malt, moreso than from a biscuit type. Or as some have suggested, brew the kit as delivered. It will still be in style.

Alright, melanoidins won't be formed by simply toasting Pilsner malt.

The OP has various crystal malts on hand, use 2-4 oz of C40 instead of toasting Pilsner?

Now his plan was to brew early this morning, so this may all be a moot issue by now.

 

[bracconiere]

Nope, there's a lot more to making a darker malt than just a higher final kilning temperature. It starts from raw barley selection to the malting schedule to a much more complex and lenghty kilning schedule ending at a higher final temperature.

lol, yeah most darker malts are steeped at 150f for a while to self convert before roasting them....that's the difference between roast barley, and black patent....but my understanding of munich malt, a base malt, is it's just kilned after drying at 200f instead of something like 170f.....

i don't know for sure, really i just throw **** in a pot, and am glad i get an alcoholic drink, that tastes pretty good....

 

[Vale71]

Here is the Cliff's notes version:

- barley with a higher % of protein
- more intensive malting to increase proteolysis (=higher FAN)
- "stewing" (don't know if it's the proper English term, sorry) to have some degree of conversion but certainly not as much as with Cara or Cristal malts
- higher final kilning temp

The idea is that to create Melanoidins through Maillard reactions you need both higher FAN levels and more simple sugars in the green malt before you start kilning it.

So simple darkening through higher temperatures will not really get you a genuine Munich-type malt.

 

[bracconiere]

just to say...if it was me and i just needed 8oz of munich malt for a 5 gal batch. i'd throw 8oz of base malt in a skillet and shake it over the stove till it was fragrant....and call it 'beer' after the brew day....


edit: i don't know how to make any trademarked stuff, but i have f'in around with sprouting barley, and flavors for a while....i've tried putting them in the pressure cooker even....

 

[Robert65]

most darker malts are steeped at 150f for a while to self convert before roasting them....that's the difference between roast barley, and black patent....

This, like your understanding of Munich malt, is completely wrong in every way, but that's irrelevant to this thread. What is relevant is that learning how different malts are produced and what their composition is, is beneficial to a brewer. Understanding *why* a given ingredient produces a given flavor effect makes it possible to understand *how* to produce a desired result in your beer. Otherwise you are just throwing poopy in a pot and hoping for alcohol, but that's fine if it's what you're after.

 

[bracconiere]

This, like your understanding of Munich malt, is completely wrong in every way,

wait, so you're telling me crystal malt isn't stewed wet in the kernel first? and roast barley isn't unmalted? i'm at a loss, apparently i've been doing it wrong for my short 3 years....have you malted before? i could use more home maltsters to help me out, so far i have to figure it out on my own....

edit i should stress, i don't do any of this for 'brand reconigtion' or to make money, just a lowley homebrewer.....

edit #2: and why so serious? **** it's just beer...if you're trying to be a dope cook, crack dealer, leave my happy place out of your schemes for world domination! i'd rather not see people start shooting each other in streets over a homebrew.....

 

[Robert65]

Sorry, you said "most dark malts" are stewed (true of crystal,) and then cited black patent and roast barley, so I thought you were suggesting that black patent is a crystal malt. It is not. It is dry roasted from finished base malt, like biscuit, amber, brown, or chocolate, or home toasted malts like we've been discussing. Roast barley indeed is not malted. And then there is a distinction between the properly used terms crystal and caramel. Crystal is completely liquified and converted (mashed really) in the hull in a sealed drum roaster before curing to create a fully vitreous lump of malt sugar in the hull. Caramel malt is really on a continuum with Munich and aromatic types, made on a conventional kiln. Like Munich, the temperature is raised to the final curing temperature with some remaining moisture in the withered malt (more than in the case of Munich, but since a drum is not employed, stewing of the green malt is not possible) so there is some conversion and caramelization, but the endosperm remains partly mealy. Crystal malts can be steeped in an extract batch, but true caramel malts need to be mashed with an enzymatic base malt. Finally there are hybrid malts, first manufactured as a crystal and then dry roasted, like Special B and DRC.

 

[bracconiere]

so I thought you were suggesting that black patent is a crystal malt. It is not.

Finally there are hybrid malts, first manufactured as a crystal and then dry roasted, like Special B and DRC.

first off, let me say, if you know how to make special b...let me know, i love that stuff!


but as far as i know black patent is crystal malt? just really dark crystal malt...it's malted, stewed in the kernel, then roasted.....


and these are the things i've been working off learning...

https://byo.com/article/malting-your-own-techniques/

 

[Robert65]

Black malt, like all the roast malts from biscuit on up, starts as regular, finished, base malt, placed in a drum and dry roasted.

Most specialty malts are beyond the scope of home malting, as they require a sealed, temperature and humidity controlled, drum roaster.

And BYO is usually a very reliable source of misinformation. Take it with a grain of salt and look for primary/professional sources.

I wonder how the OP's brew day went...

 

[bracconiere]

I wonder how the OP's brew day went..

LOL, sometimes we forget the important things..... i've already forget his name.....

 

[BigEd]

What makes that Helles any different than a Pilsner, aside from the hops? It should be maltier.

The perceived "maltiness" may be higher because the hop rate and bitterness is lower than a pils, maybe 20-24 IBU compared to 30-40 in a pils.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Dingemans Aromatic malt would be a good substitute for Munich malt. If adding Dingemans in place of Munich, add only 1/3 to perhaps 1/2 as much Dingemans as was originally intended for Munich, and make up the shortfall with extra base malt.