Strong unpleasant bitterness

[Cockfighter]

Hi all,

I'm new to home brewing. I started with a couple of kit batches with hopped extract that turned out really great so I thought I'd move on to doing my own hop boil with extract.

Unfortunately the beer has turned out almost undrinkable. The beer has a strong bitter aftertaste that lingers in the mouth for quite a while. It seems to be different to the normal beer bitternes I'm used to. The beer smells great and the initial taste is good, but the aftertaste is like what one might imagine cigarette butt water to taste like. It's not nice at all.

Here's the recipe I used for my first extract hop boil beer:

Fermentables

2 kg Liquid Malt Extract - Weyermann Oktober Beer
2 kg Liquid Malt Extract - Weyermann Pilsen (late addition)

Hops

Amount Variety Type AA Use Time IBU
15 g Amarillo Pellet 6 Boil 60 min 9.41
10 g Cascade Pellet 6 Boil 45 min 5.76
10 g Cascade Pellet 6 Boil 30 min 4.82
10 g Cascade Pellet 6 Boil 20 min 3.8
20 g Citra Pellet 9 Boil 15 min 9.34
25 g Amarillo Pellet 6 Boil 10 min 5.69
20 g Citra Pellet 9 Boil 5 min 3.75
15 g Citra Pellet 8.5 Boil 2 min 1.13
25 g Amarillo Pellet 6 Dry Hop 5 days
25 g Cascade Pellet 6 Dry Hop 5 days
25 g Simcoe Pellet 6 Dry Hop 5 days

Total IBUs: 43.7
Fermentis / Safale - American Ale Yeast US-05

I had the beer in the fermentor for about 2 weeks before bottling it, where it has aged for about two and a half weeks. I know that the beer is still young... might the bitterness subside with age?
The taste was already there before bottling.

I had put the problem down to my overly packed hop schedule, but I have recently done a partial mash brew which has the same unpleasant aftertaste. The brew has been in the fermentor for over two weeks now and the same bitter taste has developed.

Recipe for the partial mash brew:


Fermentables

1.4 kg Liquid Malt Extract - Weyermann Oktober Beer - (late addition)
300 g Brown Sugar - (late addition)
0.8 kg Liquid Malt Extract - Weyermann Wheat - (late addition)
2.5 kg Weyermann German Pale Ale (partial mash)
5.02 kg Total

Hops
Amount Variety Type AA Use Time IBU
15 g Northern Brewer Pellet 7.8 Boil 60 min 12.14
10 g Chinook Pellet 13 Boil 15 min 6.69
15 g Chinook Pellet 13 Boil 10 min 7.34
15 g Simcoe Pellet 11.7 Boil 7 min 4.89
15 g Centennial Pellet 9.7 Boil 5 min 3.01
15 g Simcoe Pellet 11.7 Boil 2 min 1.54
15 g Centennial Pellet 9.7 Aroma 1 min 0.65
45 g Centennial Pellet 9.7 Dry Hop 4 days
25 g Simcoe Pellet 11.7 Dry Hop 4 days

Total IBUs: 36.27
Fermentis / Safale - English Ale Yeast S-04

I'm really dissappointed because I though something decent would come out. The IBUs are lower than the last batch, but the same unpleasant bitterness is there.

What am I doing wrong? Could it be bad extract or bad hops? Perhaps an infection of some sort?
And may it subside with age or should I not bother even bottling my first partial mash brew?
Any help would be much appreciated.

 

[flars]

What were the FGs for each beer? What temperature was the wort at during fermentation?

 

[unionrdr]

I'd love to know where you found Weyermann extracts?! The only place in the US I could find was NYC & they were out & didn't know when they'd get more?
Anyway, in the first batch you had a total of 30g of bittering @ 60 & 45. 1 ounce is 28g. So that might be it. Astringency from high steep/mash temps would also do it. Bittering on the PM beer looks OK @ 15g. I still am thinking astringency...

 

[Cockfighter]

Both beers were brewed at the top end of the acceptable range for S-05 and US-05, at about 22-23°C (73F). The couple of kit beers I did before turned out fine at these temps. I did let the beers come up to about 25° after the fermentation had subsided after about 4-5 days.

The yeast seems to have done it's work. The all extract batch had an OG of 1.055 and an FG of 1.014, while the partial mash had an OG of 1.053 and an FG of 1.014.

For both batches I did the boil in a 12L (3 Gallon) copper pot and topped it off in the fermentor to about 23L (6 Gallons).

These were the first batches that I cooled in the kitchen sink. I didn't bother cooling the kit brews as the water volume was so low.
I put the copper pot in cold water for about half an hour. Could an infection from the kitchen sink have somehow gotten into the brews?

 

[Cockfighter]

I'd love to know where you found Weyermann extracts?! The only place in the US I could find was NYC & they were out & didn't know when they'd get more?
Anyway, in the first batch you had a total of 30g of bittering @ 60 & 45. 1 ounce is 28g. So that might be it. Astringency from high steep/mash temps would also do it. Bittering on the PM beer looks OK @ 15g. I still am thinking astringency...

One of the beers is all extract, so I don't think the problem has anything to do with the mashing.

What does astringency taste like? I've been reading up on it, but I can't get a clear description of it. And if it is astringent, what caused it?
The only comman factor between the brews that I can think of is that they were the first that I cooled in the kitchen sink.

As far as the Weyermann extract goes, I'm sorry I can't help you there unfortunately... I live in Germany so I'm right at the source.
Hence my preference for metric.

 

[Cockfighter]

Could water pH be the problem? I read that it has an impact on mashing, but what about the extract boil?

 

[BreezyBrew]

Could water pH be the problem? I read that it has an impact on mashing, but what about the extract boil?

Yeah sounds like you need to switch up your water. I had to start using RO water even after I made pH adjustments to my tap water. Theoretical values in Bru'n water just didnt add up to what the beer tasted like with tap. It was this throaty harsh bitterness that lingered forever. Once I used RO water and built my water with salts, beers improved. Check out the water primer on this forum.

 

[flars]

Water pH is not normally a problem with extracts as if is with mashing grains to achieve conversion.
The temperatures you gave in the previous post. Were those temperatures for the wort or room ambient temperature?

 

[rodwha]

My understanding is that pH doesn't have an impact, if much, on extract as they were mashed properly by the maltster.

 

[unionrdr]

One of the beers is all extract, so I don't think the problem has anything to do with the mashing.

What does astringency taste like? I've been reading up on it, but I can't get a clear description of it. And if it is astringent, what caused it?
The only comman factor between the brews that I can think of is that they were the first that I cooled in the kitchen sink.

As far as the Weyermann extract goes, I'm sorry I can't help you there unfortunately... I live in Germany so I'm right at the source.
Hence my preference for metric.

Ah. I should've guess you were in Germany. Anyway, the 30g of bittering hops could've made it more bittered than you prefer. Astringency is like sucking on a tea bag. A different quality of bitter. Maybe the copper adding something, as beer is a bit acidic? But I myself did switch to using spring water & my brews taste noticeably better.

 

[BreezyBrew]

Guess I should have looked at the recipe closer, and not just the hop editions Yes, with extract the pH has already been established, so it's not of a concern.

 

[Cockfighter]

Water pH is not normally a problem with extracts as if is with mashing grains to achieve conversion.
The temperatures you gave in the previous post. Were those temperatures for the wort or room ambient temperature?

Those were the wort temperatures. The room temperatures were generally similar, but I kept the wort cool using ice packs.
As I said, I had done two extract brews previously at similar (maybe even a bit warmer) temperatures and they turned out fine. I did use different yeasts though (Nottingham and a kit yeast).

I can't imagine slightly too high fermentation temperatures would produce such a pronounced astringent taste.

I haven't been bothering with water control. The tap water here is of very good quality with no added chlorine. However, a quick look at the water analysis on the water works website shows an average pH of 7.7!

This is considered too high for mashing, right?

In any case, the all extract brew is just as astringent/bitter, so mash pH can't really be the cause.

This is really bumming me out. I don't want to start another batch until I know what I did wrong with the last two.

 

[rodwha]

Are you filtering your water?

I used nothing but filtered tap water for my extract and steeped grain beers, though my water is no doubt nothing like yours, but mine all turned out OK.

After moving to partial mash, knowing my water was fairly hard, I'd use a little RO water to dilute it (1 gallon for dark beers, and 2 gallons for light beers), and that worked out OK too, though no doubt my beer could have likely been a little better if I properly dealt with the water.

 

[unionrdr]

Sounds like you need to adjust the PH of your water. There's a forum for that below this one. But it could be a high PH water messing with the extract brews as well. The PH of the extract by the maltster won't adjust PH down. It's just like a pre-set.

 

[Cockfighter]

I'm not filtering the water, but I didn't think I need to. The water is great, as good as many bottled waters...

I find it hard to believe that the water is the culprit, especially since two extract kit brews have turned out just fine with it.

The flavor really is very unpleasant. It's not just a small thing, it really tastes off and is different to a beer that's just really bitter. The bitterness comes late and tastes a bit like ash.

I have been using small hop bags for the boil and I squeezed them out after the wort was cool. Could the hop particles be causing this?
I noticed the batches were very cloudy.
I was also very conscious not to burn any extract, and I'm certain no burning of any kind took place to cause any off bitterness.

Can infections cause such a taste? I could try cooling the wort in the bathtub instead of the kitchen sink.

 

[Cockfighter]

Sounds like you need to adjust the PH of your water. There's a forum for that below this one. But it could be a high PH water messing with the extract brews as well. The PH of the extract by the maltster won't adjust PH down. It's just like a pre-set.

Well if pH can mess with an extract boil too, then I might have to do something about it...
Is there something simple that can be done to lower the pH? Like a cheap additive or something?

The thing is though, that the extract batch tasted just as bad as the partial mash. The astringent bitterness is pretty much the same. Shouldn't the partial mash batch taste even worse because I mashed at a too high pH?

 

[unionrdr]

Well, at this point, I'd say you need to take a close look at your process. Something changed to give that off flavor. Water quality in the public sense can change without notice. I used to use hop sacks in the boil, but squeezed them out in my fine mesh strainer over the kettle. I now toss them in loose, finding the hops have more "edge" to them. But I still strain the chilled wort into the fermenter. So take a haed look at your process & see if you can think of what you did differently since this started happening...

 

[Cockfighter]

Well, at this point, I'd say you need to take a close look at your process. Something changed to give that off flavor. Water quality in the public sense can change without notice. I used to use hop sacks in the boil, but squeezed them out in my fine mesh strainer over the kettle. I now toss them in loose, finding the hops have more "edge" to them. But I still strain the chilled wort into the fermenter. So take a haed look at your process & see if you can think of what you did differently since this started happening...

Yes, this "what has changed" approach has been my thinking too... Except it's really frustrating since I can't pin it down and none of the things I did differently should logically have such a dramatic effect.

I guess I'll just have to do as many things differently as possible and hope for the best. I really hope it doesn't happen again though! So much time and effort for such a bad result.

Should I bother bottling what I have, does this kind of thing get better with age?

 

[rodwha]

Municipal water usually has chlorine in it, and some you cannot really taste it, but it's presence can ruin the taste of your beer.

Can you get a copy of your water report? That's what you'd need to really determine what you could/should do.

As union mentioned, your first few extracts were fine, and that would lead me to think it's not your water unless something about it changed.

And yes, a partial mash would be more pronounced as you are mashing, which really needs things fairly inline (pH). I'm not versed enough in the water chemistry though as I'm just really learning and most of what I "know" is from How To Brew online, which is said to be outdated and not quite accurate, though I'm not certain what about it is off and how pronounced the inaccuracy is.

 

[rodwha]

I would suggest making several small batches and doing one thing differently to each. You could split a dry yeast pack into several parts.

Maybe use regular tap water, filtered tap, diluted tap water, and RO water? That would certainly be telling about your water!

 

[rodwha]

Do you know of any experienced brewers around you? Maybe they could come over and see what it is you are doing.

 

[ong]

So, when I add up your recipe in Beersmith (assuming a 23l batch), I get 60 IBUs, which is way more than you were predicting. That is a fair bit of bitterness, placing this pretty solidly in the American IPA category. Was that not your intent? (This is for the extract recipe.) Although maybe you were doing a calculation to reduce IBUs since you didn't do a full boil...

I'd expect both beers to be quite hoppy, given your recipes. Any chance you scorched the extract on the bottom of the pot? Was there a bunch of black stuff when you cleaned your kettle?

 

[Cockfighter]

I just wanted to give an update on this to encourage anyone who stumbles across this thread in future...

The beers turned out quite drinkable in the end. Both on the bitter side, but that unpleasantness has gone away for the most part.
Many people have tried it now, and some like it a lot.

Just goes to show what longer bottle conditioning and storage can do for a beer.

I'm still not sure what the problem was, as every batch since has turned out great. I take a little more care with the amount of hops I put in now and avoid hop additions in mid boil, which I now realize are pretty useless.