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Still making bad beer after 30+ batches.

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Do you use much American crystal malt in those darker beers that don't turn out well? I'm not a big fan of the taste of American stuff. It took me many years and many batches to figure this out. Now I avoid the stuff when possible.

Otherwise, could you be tasting astringency from the tannins in the darker malts and even some in the lighter malts? You said you use bru'n water so I'm assuming that you are acidifying your sparge water below 6.0, right?
 
-Thanks for all the feedback!! I have been using my own R.O. system. I've only used a TDS meter to test and it's right around 002. The salt additions I add obviously depend on the beer I'm making. I couldn't tell you off hand as I'm at work but typically I pick a pre-loaded profile for a particular beer type. I usually add gypsum and calcium chloride. Sometimes I'll add lactic acid for an IPA and pickled lime for a stout. Regardless of the water though, I've always read, if the water tastes good, it will make good beer. Maybe not great, but good. My beer is far from that with spring or R.O. water. My buddies use tap water and have great results. I have bad results regardless of what water I use.
-I've used 7 or 8 different yeasts now, the only one I've had any success with is the yeast I harvested from Oberon. I made a raspberry wheat with it and it was good, probably my best yet. Go figure.. My batch that is fermenting now is a 2-hearted clone-ish with safe-ale 05. I thought I'd be better off using a yeast that's very forgiving.
-I'd love to get a stainless fermenter, but I don't want to spend much more money if I can't find the problem, it may be all for nothing. I also don't want to be the guy who spends $1500 on golf clubs and can't break 100.
-I've used two different tanks(5lb and 20lb) from 2 different suppliers to rule that out. I've even gone one step further and have my porters and stouts on beer gas to try and rule out carbonic bite. The hydro samples haven't been good either which rules all of the gas issues out.
 
Do you use much American crystal malt in those darker beers that don't turn out well? I'm not a big fan of the taste of American stuff. It took me many years and many batches to figure this out. Now I avoid the stuff when possible.

Otherwise, could you be tasting astringency from the tannins in the darker malts and even some in the lighter malts? You said you use bru'n water so I'm assuming that you are acidifying your sparge water below 6.0, right?

I'll have to check previous recipes for the American crystal Malt.
Honestly, I've done nothing to the sparge water except to add gypsum and calcium chloride. I was under the assumption that PH didn't matter so much in sparge water?
 
How are you cleaning the mesh strainer?

I would be concerned about any cold side equipment. I once over looked a ball valve on my kettle which ruined 4 batches before I finally took it apart. A nice thin coating of brown ear wax looking goop, passing some nice bacteria into my wort. The batches were not "terrible" just not bright and had harsh finish, not sour, and not super attenuated. I went crazy trying to figure it out.

Is the chilled wort pre fermentation tasting good?

When using the strainer is the wort exposed for a while with the lid off? Is your brewing environment overly dusty or drafty?
 
+1^ Excellent point on possible cold side infection, and the kettle's ball valve.

When you can get to your recipes, can you post how much of the brewing salts and acid you add to your RO water? Which mash calculator are you using? Do you split the additions between mash and sparge water?
 
Maybe, but I'm not sure where? That's partially the reason why I don't use a secondary.

Are you using a racking cane when transferring to the keg or bottling bucket? Are all the seals and connections tight so air isn't being introduced?

If you have a bottle or 2 available I work in Lansing and would be happy to try them.
 
This is an interesting dilemma. 30+ batches and not one keeper in the bunch? We tend to be our own worst critics when it comes to our beers. If they were all bad in the "same" way then I think you can troubleshoot things with suggestions in the other posts. If they were all or some bad in different ways then the fix becomes more problematic. I haven't read the thread very closely but how many styles have you tried across the 30 batches?

I have a Saison in the keg now. It's not my fave but my brewing partner likes it. If someone gave it to me without telling me what it was, I would think it was a "bad" batch of something. In the context of the style though it's pretty darn good. Maybe your palate and brain are having trouble syncing up.

Todd
 
This one is really a puzzler.. With all the changes I could see having off flavors most of the time, but with all those changes, the off flavors should be DIFFERENT.

One thing I noticed is the amount of Starsan at 1/4 teaspoon in a quart. The proper dilution is one ounce in 5 gallons...... I would say the concentration is too acidic without doing the calculations.

I don't think this is the source of the problem though.

We are still waiting for a more accurate description of what the off flavor tastes like....
 
I agree with the ball valve idea. I had this same problem with my ball valve. If you don't have a ball valve on your kettle ignore this. I took it apart and cleaned it and the next batch was good. Then I got tired of taking my valve apart after every batch. I bought one of the new blichmann linear flow valves like here:
http://shop.greatfermentations.com/...ar-flow-valve/blichmann-boilermaker-brew-pots
It's pricey, but it comes apart in seconds and there is nothing to cleaning it.
My beers that had issues from the ball valve infection tasted oxidized, dry, and a bit harsh. Heavily hopped IPAs were the worst, giving sherry-like and cardboard flavors as soon as they were ready. I was able to isolate the infection to lacto with a microscope, but there may have been other nasties in there. The odd thing was that I never saw any pellicles or a lower than estimated final gravity. Good luck.
 
My vote is on temp swings causing off flavors here. I used to get the same issue before temp control...same types of off flavors. Some batches turned out decent others I had to wait 6-9 months before I thought they were worth drinking. Sometimes I would get the hot phenolic sulfury taste and other times it was slightly fruity. Never a clean commercial quality beer until temp control. Made a world of difference in my brewery.
 
I'd be a bit worried that it's oxidation... Anywhere in your process that might sneak in?

Note that I haven't gotten all the way through the thread yet, but this seems likely to me if you're using a plastic bucket and leaving the beer in it for over a month. I made my first dumper in over 200 batches that way recently. I had hoped the extra oxygen might give me a little acetic from the brett, but nope, tasted thin, a little molasses, and like I'd let a piece of cardboard hang out in it for a week.
 
Without knowing your process, its hard to say what is going wrong. For me the biggest difference came when I was able to control fermentation temperature. How are you doing that out of.curiosity?

It's weird to me how many people cite fermentation temp. I had no temp control for 18 months and everything I made turned out exceptional. Only time I had off flavors was S-04, and even those were minimal. Granted I kept the house under 74° but I'm not convinced temp control makes the different between legendary and a dumper, just good and great.
 
I would trying picking a recipe, maybe a clone of a favorite commercial beer, and brew it a couple times, until it's good. I think it's a good suggestion to find someone knowledgeable to taste your beer--either homebrew club, HB shop employee or owner, local brewpub brewer.

"Alcoholic" and "dry" would seem to indicate wild yeast infection, assuming you're not mashing too low or adding sugar. Is it "phenolic" as well? (plastic-y or band-aid)? If this is the case, it's probably in the kegging setup--are you able to pump cleaning solution through the dip tube?

Sulfury--usually a yeast characteristic, unless it's DMS. Are you boiling pretty good, with the lid off?

Stale would indicate oxidation--are you purging the headspace a couple times after adding beer, before carbonating?
 
Almost everything pointed out has already been addressed by the OP (some people aren't reading the whole thread). And nothing here is so TERRIBLE that it would lead to 30+ batches of bad beer. It's just got to be something more basic than the usual suspects.

The beer tastes bad in the hydrometer, folks. It's not the kegs or bottles. It's somewhere during fermentation that it's getting tainted.

Infection, oxidation, or yeast autolysis are my suspicions - one of the above. I would stop fermenting in that bucket ASAP. It may have developed something that is getting into every beer, regardless of your sanitation. Put your next batch in a carboy and keg it after a 2 week primary, no longer.
 
This is definitely a stretch but something that I recently came across and adjusted favorably. You mention you have well water that is very hard - are you using this water to mix your star san? I've read extremely hard water can render starsan ineffective. I also have very hard well water and recently switched to distilled water when mixing star san. My next batch (also added a new plastic bucket fermenter) was my best, may be just a coincidence and unrelated but worth a shot.

best of luck
 
I would trying picking a recipe, maybe a clone of a favorite commercial beer, and brew it a couple times, until it's good. I think it's a good suggestion to find someone knowledgeable to taste your beer--either homebrew club, HB shop employee or owner, local brewpub brewer.

"Alcoholic" and "dry" would seem to indicate wild yeast infection, assuming you're not mashing too low or adding sugar. Is it "phenolic" as well? (plastic-y or band-aid)? If this is the case, it's probably in the kegging setup--are you able to pump cleaning solution through the dip tube?

Sulfury--usually a yeast characteristic, unless it's DMS. Are you boiling pretty good, with the lid off?

Stale would indicate oxidation--are you purging the headspace a couple times after adding beer, before carbonating?

+1

Your process from a few pages back looks pretty solid.

I agree with others that it seems most likely that there is a sanitation issue somewhere in the system. There is a great article here at brulosophy about a contamination exactly where others have mentioned: the kettle ball valve. And the story actually sounds amazingly like what you're describing....

http://brulosophy.com/2014/11/13/problem-identification-or-helping-a-buddy-stay-in-the-hobby/

If you've got ball valves in your system, I'd remove them and give them a good cleaning and hot soak for a few hours or more in HOT pbw. Let us know what you find!
 
It sounds like you've taken a TDS meter to the RO water and got a reading of 2... perfect. We are assuming the carbon filters are properly removing the chlorine before they hit the RO membrane (they really should, it's not good for the membrane), but let's assume maybe it's not. I'd add a 1/4 of a campden tab to your water next time for insurance. There can't possibly be much left but that would eliminate it immediately. I'm pretty sensitive to chlorophenols and they will ruin a batch in a hurry. Just disgusting! (I'll call this one unlikely but VERY cheap/easy insurance. Cross that one off the list with 10 seconds of work)

Can you give an example of a recipe and exactly what you are adding to the water minerals and acid wise? Who knows, maybe you are adding a tsp of something instead of a mL? If your darker beers are worse I suppose it could be a low pH problem, but I would have thought you'd describe that as maybe tart or acrid, carbonic, etc. It sounds like you've been using BrunWater long enough that you have it down, but it wouldn't be the first time it happened. Take a TDS reading after adding minerals too. That will catch a huge error somewhere. You can't caclulate what it should be, but when I see 120, I'm satisfied it's not 500. I can rest assured I probably measured correctly.

What is the strength of your lactic acid? 88%? Where did you get it and how do you measure? A little goes a LONG way.

Can you describe your equipment for everything that touches wort/beer after the flame goes out? Where are the ball valves located? How do you clean those? What components have threads and whre are those located? Where are plastic hoses used? How are those cleaned and sanitized? The method can be just as important as the chemical used

Do the same for your yeast handling procedures. Any additives for starters or rehydration? What touches these?

Close your eyes and imagine your wort flowing through your process and everything it touches. Try to imagine all the places you can't see and what would happen if a little piece of gunk got trapped in there.


For me it would be a no-brainer to just throw out all the plastic hoses and eliminate that entire variable, too cheap not to. Plastic won't last 30 batches in my brewery regardless. Even if you aren't yet convinced it's an infection issue it's an easy one to cross off the list.

Well that got a little long didn't it. :mug:
 
Are you using a racking cane when transferring to the keg or bottling bucket? Are all the seals and connections tight so air isn't being introduced?

If you have a bottle or 2 available I work in Lansing and would be happy to try them.

I do use a racking cane, I've never really paid attention to the seals and connections? If was oxidation was the cause, would the hydro sample be good?

I don't have anything carbed up at the moment. I just dumped 5 gallons of an Oberon clone that was dreadful to make room for a chocolate oatmeal stout. I kegged this yesterday, I noticed the same taste was present. We'll see in a few days. I work at the Lansing airport so I'm not sure where you work in relation.
 
One thing I noticed is the amount of Starsan at 1/4 teaspoon in a quart. The proper dilution is one ounce in 5 gallons...... I would say the concentration is too acidic without doing the calculations.

Actually, he is underdosing the Star San by -17%.

0.25 tsp = 0.0417 fl oz
1 qt = 0.25 gal

So he is dosing at 0.17 fl oz/gal which is inconsisten with the label instructions of 0.2 fl oz/gal.
 
How are you cleaning the mesh strainer?

I would be concerned about any cold side equipment. I once over looked a ball valve on my kettle which ruined 4 batches before I finally took it apart. A nice thin coating of brown ear wax looking goop, passing some nice bacteria into my wort. The batches were not "terrible" just not bright and had harsh finish, not sour, and not super attenuated. I went crazy trying to figure it out.

Is the chilled wort pre fermentation tasting good?

When using the strainer is the wort exposed for a while with the lid off? Is your brewing environment overly dusty or drafty?

-I don't clean the strainer in any particular way. I guess I just use dish soap and of course, StarSan. I only started using this trying to troubleshoot this issue in the first place. I thought maybe excess trub or a lack of oxidation may be the cause.

-Good question on the pre-fermented wort. I'm not sure what it's "supposed" to taste like. I taste them all and they all taste similar; sweet and a little bitter.

-I have removed and cleaned out my ball valve. Didn't see to have an effect.

-I brew in my garage with the door up, it's not overly drafty or dusty. The lid is off my bucket for about 5 minutes while the wort is being transferred. I try and get the lid on as soon as possible. I do notice that my O.G. hydro sample ferments just as fast from wild yeast as my closed bucket does. It seems to make a decent sour!
 
This is an interesting dilemma. 30+ batches and not one keeper in the bunch? We tend to be our own worst critics when it comes to our beers. If they were all bad in the "same" way then I think you can troubleshoot things with suggestions in the other posts. If they were all or some bad in different ways then the fix becomes more problematic. I haven't read the thread very closely but how many styles have you tried across the 30 batches?

I have a Saison in the keg now. It's not my fave but my brewing partner likes it. If someone gave it to me without telling me what it was, I would think it was a "bad" batch of something. In the context of the style though it's pretty darn good. Maybe your palate and brain are having trouble syncing up.

Todd

I've had a few decent ones in the bunch(<5), decent but not good. I guess I've tried 6 or 7 different styles. I taste it in all of them, but it's more pronounced in browns, porters and stouts. I agree that I am my own worst critic, but I don't think I'm being too hard on myself. My wife can taste the same thing.
 
Another question that I'm surprised hasn't been asked is where are you getting your ingredients from? Are you crushing your own grains?

One of the first things I would do is get a high selling kit from a reputable vendor (maybe something like Caribou Slobber from Northern Brewer; first one that came to mind) and not switch anything out. Even better; buy two and the brew them the same way and bottle one whole batch and keg the other. If they both turn out fine then it is something with your ingredients. If the bottles turn out good and the keg is off then something with your kegging. If both are bad then it is something between the two ends.

If you can try to get a friend to buy the same kit and have them brew it also so you can have a control batch to try.
 
Thanks again for everyone's input, I truly appreciate it.
Just to answer a couple of more questions: I have three buckets in my rotation and haven't really kept notes as to what beer was made with what bucket. I used distilled water with Starsan for the first few batches but have been using regular tap water ever since. I read somewhere on here that if used in a timely manner, Starsan can be used with tap(well) water. Maybe not? I'll use distilled water from here on out to rule out another variable. I'll post my salt additions when I get home. Thanks again!
 
Another question that I'm surprised hasn't been asked is where are you getting your ingredients from? Are you crushing your own grains?

I have gotten my ingredients from two different local homebrew suppliers only. The only difference I see between the two is maybe one of them will give me a stuck sparge. I've never crushed my own grains.
 
This thread is fascinating me. Sorry that I have no advice to offer, I'm still a green brewer. But I am still learning a ton in here. Hate it for you, brother. Hope the good folks here get you sorted out!
 
I do use a racking cane, I've never really paid attention to the seals and connections? If was oxidation was the cause, would the hydro sample be good?

I don't have anything carbed up at the moment. I just dumped 5 gallons of an Oberon clone that was dreadful to make room for a chocolate oatmeal stout. I kegged this yesterday, I noticed the same taste was present. We'll see in a few days. I work at the Lansing airport so I'm not sure where you work in relation.

I would suspect the hydro sample to be good if the racking cane was bad. You could take in a sample to Red Salamander or Capital Area Homebrew supply. They are both very knowledgeable and could assist.
 
Reserve a half gallon of wort and ferment it in a glass gallon jug with tin foil over the opening. When it and its parent bucket finish fermenting (~10 days; don't wait an extended time), taste both and compare.

If the gallon jug sample is clean, it's your fermenter. If both are bad, it's something on the hot side.

To rule out the StarSan and other preparation components, "sanitize" the jug with very hot water - nothing else. Basically, isolate this jug entirely from the rest of the assembly line. Pour wort into it directly from the kettle.
 
I'll see if I can explain my process in a fairly brief manner: I start off by heating up roughly 4-gallons of mash water in a stainless pot. In the past I've used bottled water, now I use R.O. with salt additions using BruN water. I taste the water after the additions and it tastes as good as any. I heat the water up to 170-ish degrees and dump it into my 10-gallon mash tun with a false bottom. I leave the water in there until it cools to around 165 degrees. Once I get this temperature, I add the grain. I mix it all up for a few minutes and then read the temperature. I'm usually around 152(depending on recipe). Within the hour of mashing, I stir it up every 20 minutes and take a temp reading. I typically lose 2 degrees within the hour. I then vorlauf around 3-4 quarts until the cloudiness is gone. Once the initial volume has drained into my keggle, I then batch sparge by adding in another 5 gallons of 168 degree water, stir and let sit for ten minutes. I again vorlauf until clear. This leaves me with around 7-gallons of wort. I heat the wort up on a natural gas burner until the hot break. I back down the flame until I get a rolling boil. I add hops according to schedule. I typically boil for 60 minutes unless I'm making a really light beer in which I'll do 90 minutes. With 5 minutes left in the boil, I'll add my copper wort chiller into the wort. While I'm boiling/cooling the wort, I clean and sanitize everything. Everything in the post boil process is saturated in StarSan; bucket, lid, air lock, scissors, yeast package, hydrometer, graduated cylinder, and stainless mesh strainer. This is when I usually rehydrate my dry yeast. If I'm using liquid, I make a starter 36-48 hours in advance. I cool the wort to around the intended fermentation temp (66 degrees for the last batch). I drain the wort into a bucket through the stainless mesh strainer. This seems to aerate the wort fairly well. I then add the yeast and close it up and add StarSan to the airlock. I place the bucket in my basement which is currently 62 degrees ambient. I have a thermometer on top of the bucket for ambient temperature and a "stick on" lcd thermometer for approximate wort temperature. I also use an infrared thermometer to check the bucket temperature. The "stick on" thermometer and the infrared are always within 1 degree of each other. Currently this temperature is 4 degrees higher than ambient at 66 degrees. I check it once a day and make sure there are no swings in temperature. My basement is fairly consistent so I never expect any. After the fourth or fifth day, I'll bring the bucket up a level (I live in a quad level house) where the wort temperature raises to around 68 degrees. I then leave it as is for 4-5 weeks, I don't use a secondary. When it's time to keg, I completely disassemble the keg and clean and sanitize. I rack the beer into the keg avoiding any splashing. I take F.G. reading and it usually is spot on. Once the keg is full, I attach Co2 and then purge for 10-15 seconds. I place the keg into my fridge at 10 PSI and let it sit for a week. I've also force carbonated with the same results. With my last batch, the off-flavor was present going into the keg. That's it in a nut shell. I've also replaced buckets, airlocks, hoses, valves and many other things. The one thing I haven't done yet is add O2 to the wort. I've had great beer made by others without it so I don't know if it's completely necessary. See any glaring faults in my technique? Thanks for reading!

Someone might have said this already, but from your quote, it looks like your letting it sit on the yeast cake too long. I don't like anything over 3 wks tops. Also I recommend a full 90 minute boil for every batch but thats just me maybe. Good luck, and cheers!

Edit: Also, are you pitching enough yeast for the amount you are brewing?
 
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Wow, you need to simplify, you have too many moving pieces. Does your beer really suck or are you just hard on yourself? Will other people drink it?

Recipes on the internet are quite dicey, I haven't been here too long and can see people that post recipes have about a 50% accuracy rate...

When I first started all grain, I just bought a few Northern Brewer kits and followed the directions in Beersmith. Their Chocolate Milk Stout is tasty as well as their Honey Brown Ale.

Why are you making a starter with dry yeast? They have enough glycogen to start fermentation without a starter. I would just buy enough yeast to pitch the right amount so you can take the variable of a starter out of the picture.

I would use tap or bottled water as well, messing with water chemistry is the last 1% of exceptional beer in my opinion.

It sounds like you have a swiss army knife and you want to play with all the tools since you have them. Simplify!

Hope it helps,
Chris


-Thanks for all the feedback!! I have been using my own R.O. system. I've only used a TDS meter to test and it's right around 002. The salt additions I add obviously depend on the beer I'm making. I couldn't tell you off hand as I'm at work but typically I pick a pre-loaded profile for a particular beer type. I usually add gypsum and calcium chloride. Sometimes I'll add lactic acid for an IPA and pickled lime for a stout. Regardless of the water though, I've always read, if the water tastes good, it will make good beer. Maybe not great, but good. My beer is far from that with spring or R.O. water. My buddies use tap water and have great results. I have bad results regardless of what water I use.
-I've used 7 or 8 different yeasts now, the only one I've had any success with is the yeast I harvested from Oberon. I made a raspberry wheat with it and it was good, probably my best yet. Go figure.. My batch that is fermenting now is a 2-hearted clone-ish with safe-ale 05. I thought I'd be better off using a yeast that's very forgiving.
-I'd love to get a stainless fermenter, but I don't want to spend much more money if I can't find the problem, it may be all for nothing. I also don't want to be the guy who spends $1500 on golf clubs and can't break 100.
-I've used two different tanks(5lb and 20lb) from 2 different suppliers to rule that out. I've even gone one step further and have my porters and stouts on beer gas to try and rule out carbonic bite. The hydro samples haven't been good either which rules all of the gas issues out.
 
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