Still making bad beer after 30+ batches.

[Amadeo38]

It's the same off-flavor in almost all the beers. I can't describe it but it's always on the back-end. I notice it more with porters and stouts. I still notice them in IPA's, they're just not as noticeable.

This kind of thing is so frustrating... Having 5 gallons of a beer that's just barely bad enough that you're pissed to have to drink it. If you notice it more with porters and stouts, perhaps it's astringency? Are you keeping your flame on the entire time during the mash and scorching the grains perhaps?

I second the thought of grabbing a new fermentation bucket, and also agree that you don't need to soak in starsan if you've properly cleaned the item with PBW beforehand. Spray bottle contact works just fine.

Last thing I'd recommend if you don't want to invest in a fridge for fermentation temp control at this point is a Swamp cooler of some sort to help reduce temp swings if your ambient air temp fluctuates during the day.

 

[lumpher]

I would suggest doing a very basic brew to help narrow it down. Have you done something very forgiving like a Hefeweizen? If not, and if you like them, get some r o water and 6 lbs wheat dme, and an oz hallertauer hops and cook up a hefe. I would say that, if it comes out drinkable, your water sucks.

 

[k1ngl1ves]

Does it taste "off" in the fermenter, or after it's been packaged? If the later...

Do you bottle or keg? Run us through your process please.

 

[didinho]

I would suggest doing a very basic brew to help narrow it down. Have you done something very forgiving like a Hefeweizen?

wait. no. I never tasted a good homebrewed hefeweizen. wathever the yeast, the fermentation temperature, weizen always have problems when homemade. it's the most difficult style to brew at home, not really a basic one...

 

[bendog15]

I'm sure you're getting a lot of info here. Without knowing your specific process I would say get a better bottle fermentor (cheap) cuz your bucket may have some scratches which can hide bacteria in. It sounds like you are pbw and star san'ing everything which is good. Maybe look into a controlled temperature chamber. They're cheap to build if u can get ur hands on an old fridge or chest freezer.
For me, cleaning, sanitizing, and temp control have always been the factors in producing quality beer.

 

[eadavis80]

You said you've had many people watch you brew. I wonder if if something is wrong in your post-brew day processes - maybe racking, kegging or bottling? That really sucks man - 30 batches and nothing to show for it. Sorry. I'd probably concede and find a new hobby if a local homebrew club can't help.

 

[Aristotelian]

I am going to go out on a limb and suggest perhaps your beer is actually fine. You are not describing particular intense off flavors as you would.expect from infection. your process is sound. Have you actually done blind taste.tests against commercial or friends homebrew? I wonder if you had a.couple bad batches early on and just got down on yourself and now you expect your beer to be bad?

 

[Redlantern]

Nevermind . tried to delete but could not

 

[mprowland]

I'll see if I can explain my process in a fairly brief manner: I start off by heating up roughly 4-gallons of mash water in a stainless pot. In the past I've used bottled water, now I use R.O. with salt additions using BruN water. I taste the water after the additions and it tastes as good as any. I heat the water up to 170-ish degrees and dump it into my 10-gallon mash tun with a false bottom. I leave the water in there until it cools to around 165 degrees. Once I get this temperature, I add the grain. I mix it all up for a few minutes and then read the temperature. I'm usually around 152(depending on recipe). Within the hour of mashing, I stir it up every 20 minutes and take a temp reading. I typically lose 2 degrees within the hour. I then vorlauf around 3-4 quarts until the cloudiness is gone. Once the initial volume has drained into my keggle, I then batch sparge by adding in another 5 gallons of 168 degree water, stir and let sit for ten minutes. I again vorlauf until clear. This leaves me with around 7-gallons of wort. I heat the wort up on a natural gas burner until the hot break. I back down the flame until I get a rolling boil. I add hops according to schedule. I typically boil for 60 minutes unless I'm making a really light beer in which I'll do 90 minutes. With 5 minutes left in the boil, I'll add my copper wort chiller into the wort. While I'm boiling/cooling the wort, I clean and sanitize everything. Everything in the post boil process is saturated in StarSan; bucket, lid, air lock, scissors, yeast package, hydrometer, graduated cylinder, and stainless mesh strainer. This is when I usually rehydrate my dry yeast. If I'm using liquid, I make a starter 36-48 hours in advance. I cool the wort to around the intended fermentation temp (66 degrees for the last batch). I drain the wort into a bucket through the stainless mesh strainer. This seems to aerate the wort fairly well. I then add the yeast and close it up and add StarSan to the airlock. I place the bucket in my basement which is currently 62 degrees ambient. I have a thermometer on top of the bucket for ambient temperature and a "stick on" lcd thermometer for approximate wort temperature. I also use an infrared thermometer to check the bucket temperature. The "stick on" thermometer and the infrared are always within 1 degree of each other. Currently this temperature is 4 degrees higher than ambient at 66 degrees. I check it once a day and make sure there are no swings in temperature. My basement is fairly consistent so I never expect any. After the fourth or fifth day, I'll bring the bucket up a level (I live in a quad level house) where the wort temperature raises to around 68 degrees. I then leave it as is for 4-5 weeks, I don't use a secondary. When it's time to keg, I completely disassemble the keg and clean and sanitize. I rack the beer into the keg avoiding any splashing. I take F.G. reading and it usually is spot on. Once the keg is full, I attach Co2 and then purge for 10-15 seconds. I place the keg into my fridge at 10 PSI and let it sit for a week. I've also force carbonated with the same results. With my last batch, the off-flavor was present going into the keg. That's it in a nut shell. I've also replaced buckets, airlocks, hoses, valves and many other things. The one thing I haven't done yet is add O2 to the wort. I've had great beer made by others without it so I don't know if it's completely necessary. See any glaring faults in my technique? Thanks for reading!

 

[mprowland]

I am going to go out on a limb and suggest perhaps your beer is actually fine. You are not describing particular intense off flavors as you would.expect from infection. your process is sound. Have you actually done blind taste.tests against commercial or friends homebrew? I wonder if you had a.couple bad batches early on and just got down on yourself and now you expect your beer to be bad?

I've actually had someone who hadn't tasted my beer say this to me. I don't think that's the case. I can tell when I make a decent one(maybe 1 in 6). This has been a lot like golf for me, one good swing will bring me back for the next round. Lately I just haven't had a good swing.

 

[z-bob]

I wonder if you're brewing styles that you don't really like. Hoppy IPA'a if you don't really like hops, you just think you do? I've discovered that I like more balanced beers much better than the hop bombs I thought I liked.

 

[mprowland]

I wonder if you're brewing styles that you don't really like. Hoppy IPA'a if you don't really like hops, you just think you do? I've discovered that I like more balanced beers much better than the hop bombs I thought I liked.

The beers I like the most (stouts and porters) typically turn out the worst.

 

[McKnuckle]

"I then leave it as is for 4-5 weeks, I don't use a secondary."

I would say stop doing this. It is the only thing in your process that sounds questionable. I know that people say it's no big deal; it's safe to leave beer in primary for weeks, etc. - but I would change that up and evaluate if the results are different. Leave it in primary for 2 weeks, tops. What do you have to lose?

It would help to know how "extreme" your water treatment is, though. What predicted mash pH do you shoot for, and what kind of SO4/Cl levels do you adjust for? Do you have a recent stout/porter grain bill and water profile to share?

 

[dmcman73]

1. Purchase a new fermenter (bucket, better bottle, etc) they are cheap enough. If you have the funds, pick up a Speidel fermenter, these are my favorite fermenters, have very high user ratings, and I used to use them all the time before moving over to a stainless steel conical, I still have my speidels and plan on still using them. This is their 7 gallon one: https://www.morebeer.com/products/speidel-plastic-fermenter-30l-79-gal.html.

2. Purchase an all grain kit that has everything you need. These kits are "time tested" as a lot of people have brewed these with no issues and like the outcome. It seems like you have your yeast prep locked in. Are you pitching the yeast at the proper temps that are recommended and keeping them at that temp? Some yeast can get strained at certain temps and cause undesirable off flavors. The kits you get will have everything listed on what temps to keep them at. Get a couple of brews using a kit under your belt to really lock in your brewing techniques.

3. I didn't see it listed but, you said you use RO water and add stuff to build it up, have you tested the Ph of it? Is your water that bad that you have to use RO? I just run my water through some carbon filters to remove chlorine from it and that's all. I live in NY and our water is pretty good and my beers come out great using the water as is.

4. Are you bottling/kegging it too soon? You might be tasting "green" beer. I've had a pumpkin ale I made once that hit it's final gravity which stated it was "done" but when I sampled some from the fermenter, it had an off "medicine" taste to it. I left it in the fermenter for another month, tasted it again and it was perfect. Are you sampling your beers direct from the fermenter before kegging? If it has an off taste to you, leave it alone for another few weeks to a month to see what the outcome will be. Time sometimes fixes all beers.

Those are just some of the things I can think of and are my .02.

 

[mprowland]

I have well water and wouldn't even think to use it in beer, it's extremely hard and has plenty of iron. I've purchased all of my water for the first 25+ batches or so and then went to R.O. $10 a batch for spring water was killing me. I've never tested the PH of my mash water. I used 5.2 Stabilizer for the first 25+ batches when using spring water. Now I add pickling lime or lactic acid depending on the grain bill. For a stout I calculate for a PH for 5.5 and a 5.3 for an IPA. My last failure is here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=359746

I've kegged beers after two weeks and I've also waited 6 weeks, no difference. I've also split a batch, bottled half and kegged half. The bottled beer still had the off-flavor 4 months later, although not quite as bad.
I've replaced all of my equipment that wasn't stainless, no such luck.

 

[mongoose33]

I wonder if you're brewing styles that you don't really like. Hoppy IPA'a if you don't really like hops, you just think you do? I've discovered that I like more balanced beers much better than the hop bombs I thought I liked.

The beers I like the most (stouts and porters) typically turn out the worst.

I'm still pretty new at this so take with a grain of salt, but that sounds to me like either a PH or a water issue.

 

[Aristotelian]

Your process through fermentation sounds fine.

One more thing to rule out...try bottling a six pack and do a blind taste test with your kegged beer to rule out an issue with your keg setup.

I also wonder if you are overdoing the water treatment. Have you had the problem since you started doing RO with treatment, or were you having the problem before?

 

[mprowland]

I'm still pretty new at this so take with a grain of salt, but that sounds to me like either a PH or a water issue.

Maybe PH, but I wouldn't think water would be the issue. I've purchased all of my water(spring) up until 5 batches or so ago. I've tasted the water on every batch and it tastes great.

 

[mprowland]

Your process through fermentation sounds fine.

One more thing to rule out...try bottling a six pack and do a blind taste test with your kegged beer to rule out an issue with your keg setup.

I also wonder if you are overdoing the water treatment. Have you had the problem since you started doing RO with treatment, or were you having the problem before?

I've bottled and kegged the same batch, no discernible difference. I've always had this issue, that's partly why I started using R.O., I was/am in the process of elimination. Only problem is that I'm running out of things to eliminate.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

I haven't the time to go through all of the thread, maybe it's your water and not your process.

 

[dmcman73]

using 5.2 is really used to bring Ph levels down and keep it around that number. If you're using RO, you may need to build up to raise the Ph.

Also, don't forget, your grain bill will affect Ph as well once water is added to the grains. My water Ph is around 7 but once I add it to my grain and mash in, I wait 10 min and run some wort out and test the Ph again and it usually hits between 5.5 - 5.2 Ph and I leave it at that for the rest of the mash. If the Ph was higher or lower, I would build up/knock down the Ph directly in the mash so that it's around 5.2 for the duration of the mash.

Next time, after you mash in, wait about 10-15 min and then draw off a small sample and use a Ph meter to test your worts Ph from the mash and adjust accordingly from there.

Having the Ph way off during the mash can extract undesirable flavors from the grains that will show up strong after fermentaion. One of the biggest off flavors is tannins from the grain....that "tea steeped too long" kind of flavor...a dry sensation on your tongue.

 

[mongoose33]

The beers I like the most (stouts and porters) typically turn out the worst.

I'm still pretty new at this so take with a grain of salt, but that sounds to me like either a PH or a water issue.

Maybe PH, but I wouldn't think water would be the issue. I've purchased all of my water(spring) up until 5 batches or so ago. I've tasted the water on every batch and it tastes great.

Here's why I'm suspicious of it: since the problem (taste) is more pronounced in stouts and porters, and we know that water plays a big role in how such beers turn out, and that water composition should differ by type of beer produced, it suggests to me that water is related to this problem.

You say you're using BrunWater to determine additions, but the one thing you haven't shown us is how you're amending your water, and how you're doing it differently for a stout or porter than a light ale.

So--you're using RO and adding salts and such to it. How, exactly, are you doing that, and what are you adding? Do you ever test PH? How is your sparge water different (or the same) as your strike water?

 

[dmcman73]

Here's why I'm suspicious of it: since the problem (taste) is more pronounced in stouts and porters, and we know that water plays a big role in how such beers turn out, and that water composition should differ by type of beer produced, it suggests to me that water is related to this problem.

You say you're using BrunWater to determine additions, but the one thing you haven't shown us is how you're amending your water, and how you're doing it differently for a stout or porter than a light ale.

So--you're using RO and adding salts and such to it. How, exactly, are you doing that, and what are you adding? Do you ever test PH? How is your sparge water different (or the same) as your strike water?

+1. You can't just use a program to tell you what to add to your water without actually testing your water. Just throwing stuff in without testing it first, you could be making it worse.

If you're getting your RO water from a controlled source, ask them what the water tests are on it. If you are running water through your own RO filter, send it out to a water analysis lab to have them break it all down for you.

If you don't have one, invest in a Ph meter or even pick up some Ph strips (NOT the ones you find at Pool stores).

 

[dmcman73]

One more thing to add: Adjust your water For Ca, etc in your HLT. Adjust your Ph directly in your Mash after 10 min of mashing in.

 

[burnsie8791]

Adding yet another suggestion to the several you've gotten so far, but try entering your beer into a comp. A good judge will give you feed back and solutions to any off flavors present in your beer. It can be hit or miss. I've gotten worthless feed back and great feed back. Worth the 5-8 dollars for an entry fee in my opinion.

 

[ZmannR2]

My suggestions:

Your beer should be done fermenting after 2-3 weeks. At the 2 week mark, start taking gravity readings every 2 days and when the gravity stops budging, cold condition for 2 days then keg! 4-5 weeks is a long time for the wort to have contact with that trub. For me, I've never had to keep my wort in the fermenter for more than 16 days. I always reach FG by then.

Purchase an actual recipe from a different supplier, my suggestion is Austin Homebrew Supply house kits in All-grain, they are always FRESH and read reviews to find the best ones:

http://www.austinhomebrew.com/Beer/AHS-House-Kits/

Have you tried different yeasts? You may just not like the flavors particular yeasts create, the cleanest I've tasted is Safale US-05, and White Labs California Ale WLP-001

Also, if you haven't already and dont mind spending another $200, buy this and never look back!:

 

[IslandLizard]

Could there be something wrong with your CO2? There have been incidental reports where the CO2 in the cylinder was tainted.

Is it your cylinder, getting it filled or do you swap it? Has it been replaced during those 30-some batches? Noticed any changes?

Have you bottled any beer, without using the keg and CO2? <== Apparently you've done that. You said the bottles showed the off flavor after 4 months, meaning they didn't have the problem in the beginning and were good beer? That would point to something.

How does the beer taste uncarbonated, straight from the fermentor (e.g., hydro samples)? Does it taste similar to the final product, with the same flaws?

"Alcoholic" is normal for higher gravity beer but can have something to do with higher than optimal fermentation temps, especially during the first few days. Ever put those buckets in a tote or cooler filled with water to create a water jacket/heat sink keeping the temps of the buckets more even and closer to your intended fermentation temps?

 

[McKnuckle]

For a stout I calculate for a PH for 5.5 and a 5.3 for an IPA. My last failure is here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=359746

That thread shows someone else's recipe, not yours. I didn't read through the 35 pages to find your posts on it.

5.5 is a perfect pH for a stout IMHO. But how are you getting there - what minerals?

P.S. I looked at some of your older posts. Did you stop using EZ-Water (inaccurate) and Nottingham yeast?

 

[emcfarden]

You could also try taking a bottle or two up to a local craft brewery (the smaller the better) on tour days and have one of the brew masters or other employees taste it. I did this for an IPA I recently brewed and got a ton of feedback. You'll find that they aren't afraid to point out problems/off tastes with your beer, mainly because they would want the same if they were in your shoes.

Ask them if they can taste anything wrong with your beer and if they might know what the problem is. They'll also know what you should do to possibly fix it as well.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I'd be a bit worried that it's oxidation... Anywhere in your process that might sneak in?