Stepping up from Bells Amber bottles

[lowtones84]

Looking to make a Two Hearted clone and I have three bottles of Amber. What sort of stepping up schedule would you guys recommend? I've read through a few old threads but have seen a variety of opinions. Should I start around 100 ml with three bottles or 50-75?

Thanks all!

 

[duboman]

I've only done this once but had success with a 250ml starter. Did it twice, then stepped up from there in 250ml increments. It took me about 10 days to get what I needed. while it was fun to try and succeed I haven't seen the need to do it again.

 

[Cysis]

I used 4 early Oberon bottles. I did 500ml to start, then 800ml, then 1600ml. It took a while, but I have what looks like 3-4 times the volume of a white labs vial. I think something like 350 billion cells? Shown in the pic is a new bottle of California V next to my Bells yeast. It smells so much like bread, my wife wants to bake with it. I have another jar with some flocculated Bells yeast to restart another bottle. I'm not sure how many times I can do this before it turns into something that's not Bells yeast...

 

[JonM]

I did a pint of 1.020 wort for 4 or so days, decanted, added a pint of 1.030, wort, waited 4-5 days, decanted, then added a quart of 1.040 wort. Worked like a champ.

 

[theDeutscher]

Sorry to divert but can anyone explain why it's necessary to step up in so many small increments? Is it yeast health? I have been starting 4-6 dregs in a quart (abt 950 ml) of 1.020 wort and then pitching that at high krausen into a gallon of 1.030 wort. I always understood that a larger step up was needed to get any yeast growth.

 

[duboman]

Sorry to divert but can anyone explain why it's necessary to step up in so many small increments? Is it yeast health? I have been starting 4-6 dregs in a quart (abt 950 ml) of 1.020 wort and then pitching that at high krausen into a gallon of 1.030 wort. I always understood that a larger step up was needed to get any yeast growth.

Ideally the first steps you want to be small because you are starting with so few yeast you do not want to stress them out with too large a starter. As the population grows you can increase the starter.

 

[theDeutscher]

Ideally the first steps you want to be small because you are starting with so few yeast you do not want to stress them out with too large a starter. As the population grows you can increase the starter.

I agree with you that the quart I've been starting with is probably too big. Next time, I will probably do the same amount of dregs in about 1/2 quart of wort and then step up to my pitching size. At the same time, I don't see the reasoning in stepping up a starter the same size every time or even less in some cases. For a 5 gallon batch we make a quart or bigger starters. We're fermenting that amount of yeast in a batch that's 5-10 times the size of our starter. You would think it would make more sense to save the time a skip all the small steps.

 

[pabloj13]

Sorry to divert but can anyone explain why it's necessary to step up in so many small increments? Is it yeast health? I have been starting 4-6 dregs in a quart (abt 950 ml) of 1.020 wort and then pitching that at high krausen into a gallon of 1.030 wort. I always understood that a larger step up was needed to get any yeast growth.

Growth depends not on wort volume exactly, but on pitching rate. Your initial pitching rate will be exceedingly small if you go straight to a liter. There is a nice primer on the subject here.

 

[duboman]

Growth depends not on wort volume exactly, but on pitching rate. Your initial pitching rate will be exceedingly small if you go straight to a liter. There is a nice primer on the subject here.

Exactly

 

[theDeutscher]

Growth depends not on wort volume exactly, but on pitching rate. Your initial pitching rate will be exceedingly small if you go straight to a liter. There is a nice primer on the subject here.

pablo & duboman,

Once again, I do agree that I am starting with too much wort on my initial starter. I am using 6 dregs, though. A quart is a little more than 5 oz of 1.020 wort for each dreg, which I don't think it completely unreasonable. I'm just saying, for example, duboman is starting with 250ml and repeatedly stepping up with 250ml. I guess what I'm asking - If we're trying to make as much viable yeast as possible, is stepping up the same amount every time actually growing yeast or just fermenting beer like pablo's article suggests? Here's a quote from the same guy quoted in your article. I'm kind of torn because he sort of suggests both our arguments:

Q: If I'm making a high gravity beer, shouldn't I make a high gravity starter so the yeast become acclimated?

No. In general, starter wort should be between 1.030 and 1.040 (7 - 10°P). If you're trying to revive a stressed yeast, like culturing up yeast from a bottle conditioned beer or from an old slant, use a lower gravity starter wort around 1.020 (5°P). Lower gravity starters are easier on the yeast, but result in less growth. High gravity starters result in more growth, but are more stressful for the yeast. Exceeding the higher end of the range is stressful on the yeast and should be avoided.

Logsdon says, "Generally, you'd use the lower end of that range [1.020 SG, 5°P] for coming off a plate or slant or very old yeast. Yeast don't get used to a high gravity environment, and the high osmotic pressure can really stress the yeast. Don't forget, you want to increase healthy cells in a starter more than you want to increase the number of unhealthy cells."

"Q: When increasing a starter in steps, should the steps be a certain size?

Yes, but there is plenty of leeway in the size of the steps. A "step" is when you take an active starter and increase the volume with more wort. Brewers do this to increase cell mass, while keeping the rate of growth consistent.

The size ratio of one step to the next can affect the health of the yeast and the amount of cell growth. A very large step can result in a change in yeast metabolism, where the sugars that are fermented last can fall out of favor with the yeast. The yeast become lazy and subsequent generations can become lower attenuating.

Making a greater number of small steps increases the chance of contamination. Every transfer, every feeding, every bit of handling you do increases the chance of contamination. Five to ten times the size of the prior step is considered correct. You should try to balance the practical considerations of handling, sanitation, and cell growth."

 

[duboman]

I'm just saying, for example, duboman is starting with 250ml and repeatedly stepping up with 250ml.

To clarify: My first step is 250ml, my second is 250ml and from there I increase the size of the starter depending on what I began with, usually from 250-500-750-1L-1.5L-2L, hope that helps clear things up.

In all honesty I do not think there is really a rule of thumb other than starting with a reasonable sized starter for the amount of yeast being harvested. the main idea is not to stress out the little bit of yeast early on, kinda like feeding a puppy. A puppy gets fed 3 times per day, then 2x, then at maturity 1-2x per day.

 

[pabloj13]

pablo & duboman,

Once again, I do agree that I am starting with too much wort on my initial starter. I am using 6 dregs, though. A quart is a little more than 5 oz of 1.020 wort for each dreg, which I don't think it completely unreasonable. I'm just saying, for example, duboman is starting with 250ml and repeatedly stepping up with 250ml. I guess what I'm asking - If we're trying to make as much viable yeast as possible, is stepping up the same amount every time actually growing yeast or just fermenting beer like pablo's article suggests? Here's a quote from the same guy quoted in your article. I'm kind of torn because he sort of suggests both our arguments:

Q: If I'm making a high gravity beer, shouldn't I make a high gravity starter so the yeast become acclimated?

No. In general, starter wort should be between 1.030 and 1.040 (7 - 10°P). If you're trying to revive a stressed yeast, like culturing up yeast from a bottle conditioned beer or from an old slant, use a lower gravity starter wort around 1.020 (5°P). Lower gravity starters are easier on the yeast, but result in less growth. High gravity starters result in more growth, but are more stressful for the yeast. Exceeding the higher end of the range is stressful on the yeast and should be avoided.

Logsdon says, "Generally, you'd use the lower end of that range [1.020 SG, 5°P] for coming off a plate or slant or very old yeast. Yeast don't get used to a high gravity environment, and the high osmotic pressure can really stress the yeast. Don't forget, you want to increase healthy cells in a starter more than you want to increase the number of unhealthy cells."

"Q: When increasing a starter in steps, should the steps be a certain size?

Yes, but there is plenty of leeway in the size of the steps. A "step" is when you take an active starter and increase the volume with more wort. Brewers do this to increase cell mass, while keeping the rate of growth consistent.

The size ratio of one step to the next can affect the health of the yeast and the amount of cell growth. A very large step can result in a change in yeast metabolism, where the sugars that are fermented last can fall out of favor with the yeast. The yeast become lazy and subsequent generations can become lower attenuating.

Making a greater number of small steps increases the chance of contamination. Every transfer, every feeding, every bit of handling you do increases the chance of contamination. Five to ten times the size of the prior step is considered correct. You should try to balance the practical considerations of handling, sanitation, and cell growth."

I think an ideal situation is a mix of the two.

1) Small starter 1.020
2) Medium starter 1.030
3) Normal starter 1.040

That has worked well for me several times. I am sure many other ways will give you yeast too. For mine I went 25-50mL>500mL>1.6L

 

[Sulli]

Another reason for starting small, is so that the yeast have a chance to out compete any bacteria that may be present in your starter.

The yeast from the dregs of a bottle of beer are going to be in pretty bad shape. How long have they've been sitting in that bottle, and under what conditions?

You probably wouldn't want to go out and run a marathon after just coming out of a 3 month coma would you?

Wake em up nice and easy with, say, 25ml of 1.020 wort.

Once you have a healthy, viable, colony going then you can jump to 250ml and then 1200ml or even 2500ml if you wanted to.