Step Mashing BIAB

[wobdee]

Anyone do this? I'm thinking of trying this just to try something different and see if it makes any difference from a single infusion. I think I'll try a Scotch Ale and do a Beta rest at around 147 for 20 min then raise it up to 162 for 40 min Alfa rest.

Something I'm concerned about in this process is what if all the starch is converted in the first 20 min and there's nothing left for the Alfa rest? Maybe I need to shorten up the first rest?

 

[jleiii]

I gave this a try yesterday with a Vienna Lager. I found a great write up on them from the BYO archives, and the writer suggested doing a protein rest at 125, then main mash at 154.

I used Beersmith with AG settings and a step mash profile. Since it is BIAB I adjusted the mash settings to 20 qts (my limit) on the initial step and just temp on the second step.

I overshot the first temp, and not sure how. For the 125 step I went to 131, and after stirring in the grain, I ended up at 129-130. I added 2 qts water at ~55, and made no measurable difference. Not sure why it overshot so much. My regular mash has been pretty much spot on with temps. Maybe the residual heat in my burner has greater impact at the lower temp.

Once the protein rest was done (15 min) I fired up the burner and nearly stirred the handle off my spoon (need a paddle) to ensure I did not scorch my bag (first use on custom bag), and with a close eye on the temp and several tweaks on the regulator I managed to hit my target temp in 15 min (as directed in write up). Then covered for 45 min and it stayed spot on 154.

I'm still on the learning curve for efficiency, but if I got my numbers right, I got 73% on mash, and 52% overall (is this 'typical'?).

I built an electric stirrer that another post motivated me to get done asap, but it was not long enough to reach deep into the grain at the bottom of the pot. I had hoped the flow would be enough to keep the grain moving, but it did not. I'm going to extend that to about 1" from the bottom, and test with cold water and yesterdays grain to fine tune.

All in all, I'd certainly consider doing step mashes in the future, especially if I can get my stirrer working like it should.

John

 

[wobdee]

I was thinking of doing a protein rest as well but I'm using Marris Otter malt and I don't think it's needed? Currently I'm getting 80-90% efficiencies with a single infusion BIAB so maybe I shouldn't mess with this but it's a hobby and I like to experiment.

I'm more looking into breaking up the conversion process into two temp stages instead of one single temp.

Instead of one single infusion of say 150-152 for 1 hour for a Pale Ale maybe go 30 min at 145 and 30 min at 162, this should put both Alfa and Beta in their optimum temps instead of trying to find a single 1 hour temp compromise. Then you could also change up the times for different styles.

 

[jleiii]

I'm not experienced enough yet to know what styles/grains are best suited for step mashing. In my case I based mine on a lengthy and seemingly knowledgeable brewer. I sought out examples of a Vienna Lager as that was what I wanted to brew, used the info I found, and hope to have a great beer in the end! I've read about the various temp steps in John Palmers book (online version) and Charlie P's which I have. Lots of stuff to digest.

I've only done 6 BIAB brews so far, but if steps can help the end product, I think I'll be learning more about them. Many people are adamant that BIAB is supposed to be simple, and voice their opinions as such, but for me BIAB is as advanced as I want to get, but if I can improve my BIAB process, why not?

From start (milling) to finish (into fermenter) yesterday it was about 6 hrs. Only thing left was cleaning the pot and bag, and I let that soak with oxyclean and the hot water saved from chilling. I don't think the step I did added more than about 15 minutes.

There is another active post on this same subject, so take a look at that one as well.

 

[RM-MN]

Are you milling your grains fine for BIAB? If so, do you know how long it takes to get conversion of starches to sugars? I've done a few iodine tests and found that I had all starches gone within.....

less than 5 minutes. Now I don't yet know whether I have long chain sugars from the alpha amylase or a mix of sugars from alpha and beta amylase action. I've read that beta amylase takes longer to work but I haven't seen anything definite on just how long it takes. If it worked half as fast as alpha amylase, your beer will turn out very dry because the beta amylase will have done its work before you ever get the wort to where alpha amylase is predominant.

 

[wobdee]

Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of, Beta getting the job done before Alpha gets it's chance. I do grind my grains very fine, maybe I'll try some iodine tests before experimenting with step mashing.

 

[RM-MN]

Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of, Beta getting the job done before Alpha gets it's chance. I do grind my grains very fine, maybe I'll try some iodine tests before experimenting with step mashing.

If you do try the iodine test, please let me know. I'd like to know what base malt you used including the malt house that made it. Also, set it up so you can sample at 1 minute and 1 minute intervals until the iodine no longer shows starch. The last time I tried it there was still a little color change at 2 minutes but none at 3. That was with Briess Pale Ale malt.

 

[wobdee]

The more I research this the more confused I get! There are so many variables like type of malt, PH and mash time to name a few.

I've read US two row has the power to convert as quick as 20 minutes and may not react much to different mash temps while Euro malts may work better with different temps and take longer to convert.

Then I read that extended mash times may create more fermentable wort but doesn't that contradict a 20 min conversion?

Iodine tests may not tell the whole story as well?

Last one I can think of is mash thickness. I do very thin BIAB mashes so this can effect things too.

I may just dive in and try some different things and see what happens, the worst thing that could happen is I make beer and the best thing is I could make great beer.

 

[RM-MN]

The more I research this the more confused I get! There are so many variables like type of malt, PH and mash time to name a few.

I've read US two row has the power to convert as quick as 20 minutes and may not react much to different mash temps while Euro malts may work better with different temps and take longer to convert.

Then I read that extended mash times may create more fermentable wort but doesn't that contradict a 20 min conversion?

Iodine tests may not tell the whole story as well?

Last one I can think of is mash thickness. I do very thin BIAB mashes so this can effect things too.

I may just dive in and try some different things and see what happens, the worst thing that could happen is I make beer and the best thing is I could make great beer.

I think you have too many zeros in there. I've used iodine to test for starch in my mash and had it show no starch left at 2 minutes. Is that really possible? Iodine tells whether there is starch, it doesn't tell if you have long chain sugars or short chain sugars. Short chain sugars are fermentable, long chain, not so much. With only mashing for 30 minutes, I get an FG of 1.000 to 1.004 so I'm pretty sure that the mash was long enough to create the short chain sugars. :cross:

I'd really like my beers to be at least a little malty.

 

[wobdee]

I use mostly Marris Otter malt and brew mostly IPA's and APA's with a single infusion mash at 150 for 60 min. Most of my beers turn out pretty good but don't seem to ferment down as far as yours, more like 1.015-1.020.

I did brew a Scotch Ale at 158 and it only fermented down to 1.026 so I think higher temps do effect the FG with this malt. Now if I could do this same brew with a two step mash like 145 for 15 min and 162 for 45 would it drop that FG a bit but keep the malty more mouth feel of the previous brew?

 

[Rake_Rocko]

Just last weekend, I brewed a Hoppy wheat beer. In the realm of 3floyds Gumballhead or Boulevard 80 Acre. I mashed low at 145 for 60 minutes. Temp actually got down to 142. Then, after that, I raised the temp to 156 on the dot for 30 minutes. Then went to boil. I have read about these "hybrid" mashes that result in a mix of alpha and beta sugars. I can tell you that the fermentation was INSANE :rockin:

This weekend, I will be taking a sample for the gravity and also dry hopping, so I will know how low the gravity has went. Beersmith estimates my FG to be at 1.008. So we will see.

Apparently, from what I read, mashing like this is to get the gravity down, but still supposed to give you more of a full "mouthfeel." Not quite sure if this is the case, but like I said, time will tell.

Now, I feel this way is more of a "hybrid" because you don't have the protein rest with the lower temps in a normal step mash. But as far as the step mashing goes, I am wondering if the Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner malt actually requires a step mash because it is "undermodified." I have mashed with pils before, but not this particular malt. Last time, I mashed like normal. A single infusion at a regular mashing temp and it turned out wonderful. I am just curious as to what you all think.

 

[wobdee]

Just last weekend, I brewed a Hoppy wheat beer. In the realm of 3floyds Gumballhead or Boulevard 80 Acre. I mashed low at 145 for 60 minutes. Temp actually got down to 142. Then, after that, I raised the temp to 156 on the dot for 30 minutes. Then went to boil. I have read about these "hybrid" mashes that result in a mix of alpha and beta sugars. I can tell you that the fermentation was INSANE :rockin:

This weekend, I will be taking a sample for the gravity and also dry hopping, so I will know how low the gravity has went. Beersmith estimates my FG to be at 1.008. So we will see.

Apparently, from what I read, mashing like this is to get the gravity down, but still supposed to give you more of a full "mouthfeel." Not quite sure if this is the case, but like I said, time will tell.

Now, I feel this way is more of a "hybrid" because you don't have the protein rest with the lower temps in a normal step mash. But as far as the step mashing goes, I am wondering if the Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner malt actually requires a step mash because it is "undermodified." I have mashed with pils before, but not this particular malt. Last time, I mashed like normal. A single infusion at a regular mashing temp and it turned out wonderful. I am just curious as to what you all think.

I thought the more modified the less a step mash is required? I heard Pils malt is less modified than American 2row or English Pale?

I just mashed in my Scotch Ale at 145 for 15 min and rose temp to 62 for 45. We will see what happens. I'll keep posting my results and it will be interesting to hear yours as well.

 

[Rake_Rocko]

I thought the more modified the less a step mash is required? I heard Pils malt is less modified than American 2row or English Pale?

Definitely true, but the reason I asked is because I have had really good results mashing a regular pils at normal mashing temps with a single infusion. I was just wondering if anyone had any experience with the BoPils because I have heard that it Does and also Doesn't need a true step mash.

Also, I did the "hybrid" mash because I was just trying something different. I didnt do a regular step mash though because I started in the beta amylase range of about 142-145, then went up to the alpha range of around 156. Just trying something new.

heres to experimentation

 

[wobdee]

I've never brewed with BO Pils but remember doing single infusion mashes with Belgian Pils and the beer was great and always up around 75-80% efficiency.

I'm all for experimentation, that's what I like about this hobby. Your going to make good beer anyway why not try something new and maybe it will be the thing that makes your beer great!

Just finished my Scotch Ale and just missed my OG by 2 points. It will be interesting to see where it finishes out at.

 

[wobdee]

Just kegged my Scotch Ale that I step mashed at 145 for 15 min and 162 for 45 min. OG 1.072 and FG 1.020. It turned out 7 points lower than previous same recipie that was mashed 1 hour at 156. Kind a what I expected, I wanted that FG to go down a little but keep the malty full flavored taste. We shall see how it tastes in a few weeks.

 

[Rake_Rocko]

Awesome! Seems like the low alpha rest got you down some points. I'm excited to see how yours comes out. I also brewed a hoppy American wheat a couple weekends ago with a mash schedule very similar to yours on the scotch, it's been in bottles for a week now. So it won't be long till I see how it comes out. From the samples I tasted, it seemed to more of a full body than if I did a single temp mash at the lower end at 148ish (which is what I initially planned). It tasted wonderful too. So I may try one this weekend. Beers like that don't take a super long time to carb (even though I obviously know it will get better the longer it conditions).


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[wobdee]

Keep me posted on that wheat beer Rocko, I'll do the same with my Scotch.
My next batch is going to be a German Pils and I'm thinking of going with a 40 min mash at 145 and 20 min at 162. I'll probably keep experimenting with this step mashing for a few more batches.


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[Rake_Rocko]

Will do. My next is going to be a black India saison. 10 pounds of bohemian pilsner malt... So I'm going to do more of a traditional step mash. 131 for 15-20 minutes and then up I about 150 or so.

But I'll let ya know how the wheat turns out.


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[jleiii]

I transferred my vienna lager to the secondary for lagering last night, hit my target of 1.014, and even at this point it's pretty tasty. Based on my review in Charlie P's book, the only benefit I can expect to see is better head retention. According to him most modern 2 row malts don't need a protein rest.

 

[wobdee]

I transferred my vienna lager to the secondary for lagering last night, hit my target of 1.014, and even at this point it's pretty tasty. Based on my review in Charlie P's book, the only benefit I can expect to see is better head retention. According to him most modern 2 row malts don't need a protein rest.

Yeah, I have read most American 2 row are well modified and don't require a protien rest and could actually hurt head retention if done. Some Euro base malts are less modified and can benefit from a protien rest. I guess we need to read the fine print when purchasing malt.

I brewed a German Pils the other day with Belgian Pils and a bit of Munich. 45 min rest at 145 and 15 min rest at 162. My efficiency ended up way high at 92% so my OG was too high at 1.058, was shooting for 1.050.

 

[Rake_Rocko]

Update on the wheat. It is fantastic. It attenuated well but actually had a very nice mouthfeel. Very solid medium body. I like that. Also, it came out extremely clean, which has to do more with the yeast than the mash schedule. But, I was very pleased with the result and I plan on experimenting with this type of mash schedule in the near future.


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[wobdee]

That wheat beer sounds good. I still have a week or so to wait on my Scotch Ale before I tap it.

My Pils is just about done fermenting, next up is an Oktoberfest with a 145 for 15 min and 162 for 45 min mash schedule.


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[wobdee]

Brewed up an Oktoberfest yesterday, mash schedule was 30 min at 145, 30 min at 162. Ended up at 94% mash efficiency!

My Pils FG was 1.013, just about where I wanted.


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[Rake_Rocko]

Good to hear wobdee! Just bottled an Irish red, but it was a normal mash schedule. However it was the first where we adjusted our water. Tasted the sample and it was head over heels better than our first attempt. It was dads recipe.

So our next one up is a black India saison. can't wait. I'm going to be doing a step mash with the pils I'm using. More details to come!


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[wobdee]

Scotch ale turned out great! Sweet, malty and not too heavy. Just the way I like it.

Also snuck a taste from my Pils that's been lagering for a little over two weeks and it's very tasty but could use a couple more weeks.

I have a few more lagers I want to brew and will probably continue this 2 step mash experiment, I'm liking how it's turning out and it's not hard to do with my induction burner.


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[jleiii]

My Vienna Lager is finally done. I siphoned some out about 10 days ago to get 3 bottles carbing for a local competition, and force carbonated some just in case. The rest was bottled night before last.
I tasted the early bottled ones over the weekend, and while it's pretty good, it's not what I was hoping for. The color is perfect, and it's crystal clear. Not sure what is holding it back, but then of the the 30 or so batches I've done to date, none are standouts. I'm starting to think my water is wrong.
I did a Ward water test, and the report indicated it should be fine. It's primarily artesian well water, with augments of purchased water (sourced from Delaware river), usually only during peak periods. No discernible chlorine smell (except when they augment it), and it's virtually taste free. Compared to water many places I've been over the last 35 years, it's far better 'tasting'.
It'll be interesting to see what the competition results are. Trouble with that is there are very few entries so the comments will be far more important that the winners.

 

[dobe12]

I think you have too many zeros in there. I've used iodine to test for starch in my mash and had it show no starch left at 2 minutes. Is that really possible? Iodine tells whether there is starch, it doesn't tell if you have long chain sugars or short chain sugars. Short chain sugars are fermentable, long chain, not so much. With only mashing for 30 minutes, I get an FG of 1.000 to 1.004 so I'm pretty sure that the mash was long enough to create the short chain sugars. :cross:

I'd really like my beers to be at least a little malty.

If all your beers are finishing that low, you are mashing very low (140-148) and even then 1.000 - 1.004 is very low. If you want your gravities to finish higher, you want to mash warmer (152-154F). If you are mashing around those temps, then check the accuracy of your thermometer. Something is off somewhere.

 

[DrummoRC]

I have been doing BIAB single vessel multi step mashing for the past 30 batches or so! My FG is typically 1.005-1.010 which is how I like most of my beers.

My typical mash schedule is as follows (call the steps as you see them)
142-144 for 45-60 minutes
155-158 for 15-20
164-166 for 10
Flame out 172

So I am mashing for 90 minutes total

This routine has worked well for me but it does take some effort to avoid over striking the temps! I know modern malts don't need the steps but I do it to create more fermentable wort - like my beers dry.






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[wobdee]

I have been doing BIAB single vessel multi step mashing for the past 30 batches or so! My FG is typically 1.005-1.010 which is how I like most of my beers.

My typical mash schedule is as follows (call the steps as you see them)
142-144 for 45-60 minutes
155-158 for 15-20
164-166 for 10
Flame out 172

So I am mashing for 90 minutes total

This routine has worked well for me but it does take some effort to avoid over striking the temps! I know modern malts don't need the steps but I do it to create more fermentable wort - like my beers dry.






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That's an interesting mash schedule. I've never tried a 90 min mash, I always thought it would be well converted before 90. I think conversion may differ between malt types as well?


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[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

Chiming in a little late but I'm curious - is anyone doing infusion step mashing with their BIAB setup? I'm frankly too lazy to keep stirring through successive direct heat steps. I have a 9 gallon pot for the mash and boil and my old 5 gal pot for infusion and sparge water (I know - not quite as KISS as one pot BIAB).

I start off treating all my water (usually 8 gal) in the big pot and then transfer all but my initial mash water out to the small pot. Heat the large pot to strike temp and dough in. I use BeerSmith's step infusion tool to figure out how much boiling water to add from the small pot to the mash for each step. I sometimes have to tweak step temp with with ice or more boiling water but I've been able to do as many as 4 steps (for my Belgians) and still have about 2 gallons left for sparge. I'm getting about 80% efficiency with this. The only downside is I'm not getting the upper body workout I used to get stirring.

Anyone else doing this?

 

[dobe12]

Chiming in a little late but I'm curious - is anyone doing infusion step mashing with their BIAB setup? I'm frankly too lazy to keep stirring through successive direct heat steps. I have a 9 gallon pot for the mash and boil and my old 5 gal pot for infusion and sparge water (I know - not quite as KISS as one pot BIAB).

I start off treating all my water (usually 8 gal) in the big pot and then transfer all but my initial mash water out to the small pot. Heat the large pot to strike temp and dough in. I use BeerSmith's step infusion tool to figure out how much boiling water to add from the small pot to the mash for each step. I sometimes have to tweak step temp with with ice or more boiling water but I've been able to do as many as 4 steps (for my Belgians) and still have about 2 gallons left for sparge. I'm getting about 80% efficiency with this. The only downside is I'm not getting the upper body workout I used to get stirring.

Anyone else doing this?

I've tried infusion steps, but can never hit the temps right. I'm always well below the next step even when using a step calculator. I always need WAY more boiling water than the calculators claim. I've gone back to direct heat. It's pretty quick and not that difficult. Only takes a few minutes to get the temp from the mid 140's to the mid 150's. I make sure I'm lifting the grain sack up and down and giving it an occasional stir.

 

[wingedcoyote]

I did a step infusion BIAB on my last brew -- 15 min protein at 122, 45 min sacch at 154, then mashout at 168. At least that was the plan... my step to sacch left it at ~151 instead, so some of the water that should have stepped me to mashout went in early to compensate. So the mashout was pretty puny, only bringing me up to ~155. Still, I was pleased with the process overall -- much less hassle than trying to do direct heat steps on my wussy electric stovetop, and my efficiency was quite a bit higher than my previous BIAB mashes.

 

[wobdee]

I've heard it's pretty hard to hit your temps in an infusion step mash. It's pretty easy for me with my full volume BIAB induction burner plate. Just turn the heat on and stir til I get the temp I need. Takes about 5-10 min between temps.

I just finished a Bohemian Pils and went with a dough in at 122, slowly raised to 145 and held for 45 min then raised to 162 for 15 min. Oh, also tried a mash hop, 1oz of saaz. Bittered with .4oz Magnum at 60 min. Hoping this mash hop works and gives me a little flavor and aroma, seems like most are split on if it works or not. My efficiency went down a couple points but I think it was because of the strong boil, still ended up with 82%.