Starting a little more advanced

[rklinck]

This thread is really helpful! Thx to everyone participating!

After reading everyone's comments, I think I'm going to start with a 3 tiered gravity brewing system, all grain brewing, and a corney kegs in a kegerator.

Sounds like all of this can be done relatively inexpensivley, and can neatly brew anywhere between 5 and 15 gal.

Great article if anyone is interested... http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue2.2/caplan.html

Anyone have any pics or links with how to's for this type of setup?

I'm also going to start reading "how to brew" by John Palmer. Consensus seems to be that it's the best.

No disrespect to anyone, I just want to do it right, asap. Not saying starter kits aren't great for most. Thx again!

Since you asked for our advice, then tell us that you are going to do something totally different than anyone suggested (and take a shot by suggesting that going a simpler rout is not doing it "right), you might want to just try using the search function of the forum. I'm guessing that you will be able to find pictures of these types of systems in the DIY section.

 

[Barnesie]

Business plan:

1. Take $500 out of the bank
2. Build 3 tier gravity brewing system
3. Put corney kegs in a kegerator
4. Read "how to brew"
5. Open nanobrewery

Real world results:

1. Take $500 out of the bank
2. Start building three tiered brewing system
3. take $100 out of the bank to finish brewing system
4. take $100 out of the bank to finish brewing system
5. take $100 out of the bank to finish brewing system
6. take $100 out of the bank to finish brewing system
7. take $100 out of the bank to finish brewing system
8. take $500 out of the bank for cornies, kegerator and assorted additional items
9. Private message Barnesie saying "Wow, that $1500 estimate was pretty darn close"
10. Read "how to brew"
11. Try to remember what you read while brewing
12. Make a few bad beers, a lot of average beers and a one amazing beer
13. Spend a few years trying to figure out which is which
14. Realize how fat you gotten from drinking gallons and gallons of beer
15. Go on diet and start exercising
16. Give up on diet and exercising
17. Spend a few years on HBT getting fatter due to sedentary lifestyle and abundance of beer.
18. Spend year as minor celebrity after forklift removes you from you house for a short stint on "The Biggest Loser"
19. Parlay minor fame into a very modest business loan
20. Open nanobrewery

 

[robbdmc]

Since you asked for our advice, then tell us that you are going to do something totally different than anyone suggested (and take a shot by suggesting that going a simpler rout is not doing it "right), you might want to just try using the search function of the forum. I'm guessing that you will be able to find pictures of these types of systems in the DIY section.

Not trying to take a shot at anyone. I've said multiple times that I'm greatful for everyone's responses. Just looking for some recommendations on how to start "a little more advanced" like the thread title states.

 

[stratslinger]

Before I got to the end of the thread, I was going to chime in with my own experience; that I had spent roughly $500 getting a kegerator set up (granted, that included 4 taps and spare cornies for my pipeline, so YMMV), so OP's budget was likely to be exhausted pretty quickly. Also, OP's assumption that any fermenting buckets included in starter kits would be "upgraded a week later" shows that he's got some research to do. (Seriously - do some reading around here and you'll find that ton's of very experienced homebrewers still swear by their buckets.)

But I think Barnesie's illustration in far more elegant.

 

[stratslinger]

Not trying to take a shot at anyone. I've said multiple times that I'm greatful for everyone's responses. Just looking for some recommendations on how to start "a little more advanced" like the thread title states.

And here's one more point of view: I belong to a homebrew club, and several of the guys in my club have three tier, gravity fed brewing rigs like you're considering building. They all have similar design elements, but no two of them work identically. If you ask around HBT, or anywhere else for that matter, you'll learn that the design of such rigs is actually a very personal thing that incorporates the brewer's individual process and their own set of requirements. To try to design a brewing rig before you've ever actually brewed a batch is to invite, if not disaster, then at least a good source of dissatisfaction with that rig down the road.

I've been brewing for a little over 2 years, and had been sitting in on brewing sessions with a buddy for a good year before that, and I'm only just now comfortable enough with my process that I'm working out a design for a rig. It can be an expensive prospect (you're not going to fit it into that $500 budget you originally mentioned, at least not if you plan to work in all the other stuff you need to brew and ferment and serve with too) and one you probably want to get at least reasonably close to right the first time.

 

[robbdmc]

And here's one more point of view: I belong to a homebrew club, and several of the guys in my club have three tier, gravity fed brewing rigs like you're considering building. They all have similar design elements, but no two of them work identically. If you ask around HBT, or anywhere else for that matter, you'll learn that the design of such rigs is actually a very personal thing that incorporates the brewer's individual process and their own set of requirements. To try to design a brewing rig before you've ever actually brewed a batch is to invite, if not disaster, then at least a good source of dissatisfaction with that rig down the road.

I've been brewing for a little over 2 years, and had been sitting in on brewing sessions with a buddy for a good year before that, and I'm only just now comfortable enough with my process that I'm working out a design for a rig. It can be an expensive prospect (you're not going to fit it into that $500 budget you originally mentioned, at least not if you plan to work in all the other stuff you need to brew and ferment and serve with too) and one you probably want to get at least reasonably close to right the first time.

Very constructive post. Much appreciated!

What setup would you recommend that would give me more control than a starter kit with extracts?

 

[Barnesie]

Not trying to take a shot at anyone. I've said multiple times that I'm greatful for everyone's responses. Just looking for some recommendations on how to start "a little more advanced" like the thread title states.

The problem is that you're asking the wrong question. "Advanced" doesn't mean anything in making beer. Advanced can mean technique, volume, specialized equipment, difficult recipes, lagers instead of ales, etc. Advanced compared to never having brewed before is even more subjective....so when you want to start "a little more advanced" then someone might advise you to start with partial mash instead of full extract, or they might say to brew 10 gallons instead of 5, or they might say to make an open-fermentation wild brew, or they might say to make a lager instead of an ale, or they might say to build an all electric eHERMs with a fermentation chamber and full digital PID-doohickies everywhere.

Do yourself a favor and take the time to look up BIAB. Just look it up before you go any further because I sincerely think that's a better path for you then trying to dive into building a brewing sculpture, especially when you can make essentially the exact same beer on a much smaller investment that can grow into a three tiered system if you ever need that.

 

[AnOldUR]

Murphy's law goes double for brewing. It's not rocket science, but $hit happens. The more complex your starting point, the harder it will be to figure where you went wrong. Make a good extract batch and you know you have the basics down. Make a good partial-mash and you know you have mashing basics down. If your AG on a new three-tier tastes like a$$, you'll have no idea where to start trouble shooting.

 

[rpe290]

Very constructive post. Much appreciated!

What setup would you recommend that would give me more control than a starter kit with extracts?

Why don't you make a couple full boil extract batches first, get a
10-15 gallon pot or cut keg
wort chiller
turkey fryer burner
siphon
bucket fermentor
eta: insert dispensing system of choice, bottles will cost you a whole $30 though?

as long as you buy a big enough pot and 50' wort chiller, most of that can grow with you.

BTW, the "brewing system" (mashing, boiling, etc) is far less important than having a good fermenting setup to me. Would much rather do extract all the time with temp control than all grain with none.

 

[NewJersey]

Very constructive post. Much appreciated!

What setup would you recommend that would give me more control than a starter kit with extracts?

start with batch sparging instead of flying sparge- many headaches eliminated. scarifice being efficiency. no biggy to me personally
the biab thing seems kinda cool, but not what the original poster is after

 

[robbdmc]

The problem is that you're asking the wrong question. "Advanced" doesn't mean anything in making beer. Advanced can mean technique, volume, specialized equipment, difficult recipes, lagers instead of ales, etc. Advanced compared to never having brewed before is even more subjective....so when you want to start "a little more advanced" then someone might advise you to start with partial mash instead of full extract, or they might say to brew 10 gallons instead of 5, or they might say to make an open-fermentation wild brew, or they might say to make a lager instead of an ale, or they might say to build an all electric eHERMs with a fermentation chamber and full digital PID-doohickies everywhere.

Do yourself a favor and take the time to look up BIAB. Just look it up before you go any further because I sincerely think that's a better path for you then trying to dive into building a brewing sculpture, especially when you can make essentially the exact same beer on a much smaller investment that can grow into a three tiered system if you ever need that.

BIAB sounds perfect. Didn't mean to get ahead of myself, but no one suggested that. Looks like it will give me more control with less expense. Thx bro

 

[Barnesie]

Also, don't get hung up on the extract thing. A good beer made with extracts is still good beer. Mashing all-grain is just making sugar water which is essentially super diluted extract. I enjoy mashing, but it's a huge pain in the ass and adds tons of time for absolutely minimal returns. All it really does is save a few bucks and it will take me years to recoup enough to cover the difference in equipment costs.

Remember that your job is just to make flavorful wort - the yeast makes the beer. If you make an extract beer, pitch a healthy amount of good yeast and control your fermentation temperature well, your beer will be better then any All-Grain brew shoved into a hot closet.

 

[rpe290]

BIAB sounds perfect. Didn't mean to get ahead of myself, but no one suggested that. Looks like it will give me more control with less expense. Thx bro

what exactly do you want to "control?"

The only thing not controllable with extract is "exactly" how fermentable it is, but I bet it is normally pretty good for the majority of recipes.

 

[zeg]

As for your suggestion that bottling equipment is a waste, I tend to disagree.

I do as well. What is "bottling equipment" anyway? Maybe $25 and some reused bottles? That's less than the cost of one beater keg... I'm not saying you have to bottle first as a rite of passage or anything, but unless you know for sure you're going to be sticking with the hobby (or have a brewery nearby where you can get your kegs filled with someone else's beer), I think it makes more sense to start off with a wing capper and minimal bottling setup.

Not trying to take a shot at anyone. I've said multiple times that I'm greatful for everyone's responses. Just looking for some recommendations on how to start "a little more advanced" like the thread title states.

I'm not sure I understand your reason for wanting to start "a little more advanced." Sometimes the best advice answers the question that should have been asked, not the question that was asked...

Obviously, do what you please and ignore this if you're dead set on jumping in with both feet, but I think you're mistaking "simple" for "simplistic." Like bottling vs kegging, you're looking at skipping a very small outlay to instead jump right to a huge upfront investment. As was noted above, there's very little in a basic kit that's not likely to come in handy in the future, so you're not really spending a whole lot on equipment that will become obsolete.

If you're fairly confident that your interest in brewing will be long-term, my suggestion would be to put together a simple basic kit with components that can be adapted to your more sophisticated ambitions. This will get you up and brewing faster, and the sooner you start making mistakes, the sooner you're going to stop making them (or, more accurately, learn how to mitigate them).

 

[Minky]

You need to get your feet wet before you even start to entertain the idea of going pro (Nano). There's a million ways to skin this cat, and rushing into it will probably only hinder your progress. I recommend getting a 9 or 10 gallon boil kettle, a descent starter kit, a wort chiller, and a burner of some kind. This will allow you to brew extract and all grain BIAB with ease. You could upgrade that by adding a cooler mash tun down the road. You'll have minimal money invested this way and even if you upgrade to a larger system later, most (if not all) of this euipment will still be useful to have. If not, you can always sell it. Once you get some experience under your belt, you'll be much more capable of deciding where you want to go as a brewer and how to make that happen equipment wise.

Of all the advice given, I think this best accomplishes the goal of the OP. The only thing I would add is to make sure your boil kettle has a valve. If you want to up the size of the kettle, that would be another option.

Brew clubs are a great source for used equipment.

 

[zeg]

what exactly do you want to "control?"

The only thing not controllable with extract is "exactly" how fermentable it is, but I bet it is normally pretty good for the majority of recipes.

I'd go so far as to say that, when you're starting out, you sure as hell don't even want that control. Extract is all but guaranteed to be adequate quality for making most of the beers you might want to make. The same cannot be said for your own mash.

There are a lot of steps involved in going from grain to beer. None of them is complicated, and it's really easy to properly sanitize for each step. But when you put them all together, there are enough of them that you're not likely to get through the whole process without screwing something up. If you're exceptionally lucky, you will know what mistake you made. In most cases, you'll come back and post one of these, "My beer tastes like sweaty armpit, what did I do wrong?" threads. Starting with extract lets you prove your fermentation ability and gain some confidence in that without worrying that maybe your mistake was in the mash.

 

[rklinck]

Not trying to take a shot at anyone. I've said multiple times that I'm greatful for everyone's responses. Just looking for some recommendations on how to start "a little more advanced" like the thread title states.

If you really want to start a little more advanced and want to avoid buying stuff that will be useless later, go with Barnesie's suggestion of BIAB. You can easily do a partial mash BIAB (say using 3 lbs of DME to supplement a mash of about 5 pounds of malt). If you want to avoid spending money on things that will be a waste now, just make sure the kettle you get is large enough to grow with you. There is a great sticky at the top of this forum about partial mash BIAB. I reviewed it before my first partial mash, and I have hit my expected OG every time.

A partial mash pretty well gives you as much "control" as you need. Every beer recipe will include a large amount of base malt. You can simply swap some of that out with extra light DME. If you decide that you really love brewing, you may decide it's worth moving to all grain after a while, but you will not need to.

 

[The_Cleveland_Brew_Shop]

Have you considered induction burners? They are about 300/each and use electricity rather than gas to boil, strike.

 

[rklinck]

I'd go so far as to say that, when you're starting out, you sure as hell don't even want that control. Extract is all but guaranteed to be adequate quality for making most of the beers you might want to make. The same cannot be said for your own mash.

There are a lot of steps involved in going from grain to beer. None of them is complicated, and it's really easy to properly sanitize for each step. But when you put them all together, there are enough of them that you're not likely to get through the whole process without screwing something up. If you're exceptionally lucky, you will know what mistake you made. In most cases, you'll come back and post one of these, "My beer tastes like sweaty armpit, what did I do wrong?" threads. Starting with extract lets you prove your fermentation ability and gain some confidence in that without worrying that maybe your mistake was in the mash.

Listen to Zeg. . .

Just yesterday, I was getting advice from him on how to reduce the residual sweetness in a dry stout recipe because I had neglected an important part of recipe formulation.

 

[RuffRider]

:rockin:I've been watching this thread off and on most of the day. Your quest for a decision on how to start has somehow captured my attention more than usual. I posted earlier and gave you my opinion and I stand by it. But, I have to tell you that my heart sank when you posted that you had made your decision to build a three tier "system". I have more hope for your brewing future now that you are heading towards BIAB. So, why am I posting again? There are a few things I think you can get out of this thread:

1. This place is a deep and vast knowledge resource with countless knowledgeable members full of countless experience-based opinions. Some of them contradict eachother and some of them confirm eachother. I cannot begin to quantify what I have learned on HBT over the past couple of years.

2. Most on HBT post because they care about homebrewing and they care about your question. They want you to make the "right" decision in their eyes.

3. No matter what you decide, someone will tell you to do differently (i.e. you can't make everyone happy). This is about making you happy.

I hope you enjoy homebrewing and I hope you become "obsessed" with it like so many of us already are. It's about the process and the product (BEER :rockin. By process I mean the learning process. For me, that's what makes it so enjoyable (and the great BEER :rockin! My first batch was a Mr. Beer extract. That's about as simple as you can get. Put some hopped extract in hot water, cool it down, pitch yeast, and wait. I felt like I screwed up a million things doing that batch. I learned! And I loved every minute of it. I still do (which is why I am on HBT). I guess my point is, don't be afraid to start off simple and learn.

BIAB may be a good starting point for you. But, you still need many of the tools you will find in a good homebrew starter kit (I still prefer my buckets over carboy's for fermenting). Try an extract kit with specialty grains. Learn. Then up the ante (BIAB). Learn some more. You will make good beer, get more enthusiastic about it, and become obsessed.

 

[robbdmc]

start with batch sparging instead of flying sparge- many headaches eliminated. scarifice being efficiency. no biggy to me personally
the biab thing seems kinda cool, but not what the original poster is after

Oh, really? Can you elaborate? Most everyone is saying BIAB is what I should do.

what exactly do you want to "control?"

The only thing not controllable with extract is "exactly" how fermentable it is, but I bet it is normally pretty good for the majority of recipes.

Yeah, thats why I was trying to do all grain. I can start with extract, but ultimately I want to be able to really customize my beers and experiment once I get comfortable with the process. So equipment that I could do both with would be optimal.

Also, don't get hung up on the extract thing. A good beer made with extracts is still good beer. Mashing all-grain is just making sugar water which is essentially super diluted extract. I enjoy mashing, but it's a huge pain in the ass and adds tons of time for absolutely minimal returns. All it really does is save a few bucks and it will take me years to recoup enough to cover the difference in equipment costs.

Remember that your job is just to make flavorful wort - the yeast makes the beer. If you make an extract beer, pitch a healthy amount of good yeast and control your fermentation temperature well, your beer will be better then any All-Grain brew shoved into a hot closet.

I gotchya... I will prob start with extract, but I just want to be sure I have a system that can easily be ready for all grain so I can fully customize my beer.

Have you considered induction burners? They are about 300/each and use electricity rather than gas to boil, strike.

Are there big benefits to using induction long term? I thought I read that they take quite a bit longer to get hot, which is ok as long as theres some bigger benefit to using them.

I hope you enjoy homebrewing and I hope you become "obsessed" with it like so many of us already are.

Thanks man! I'm already addicted and I haven't even started

 

[robbdmc]

So to summarize, I should get:

Starter Kit
9 or 10 gal boil kettle with valve
wort chiller
burner (induction or gas)

Kegerator
keg
c02

possible future upgrade:
cooler mash tun

This setup allows me to brew from extract and all grain BIAB. Also, lets me start small, and get as complex as I want down the road, right?

Any corrections to my list? If not, please recommend places to buy each item. Thx! Getting pumped!

 

[robbdmc]

wow! great video on BIAB...

Really convinced me to ultimately do BIAB, no sparging, with 3 gal kegs. Looks super quick and convenient, yet still fully customizable.

 

[swackattack]

If you want something to grow into I'd recommend a 15 gallon kettle. Less boil over worry and can do 10 gallon batches when the time comes

 

[robbdmc]

If you want something to grow into I'd recommend a 15 gallon kettle. Less boil over worry and can do 10 gallon batches when the time comes

So way down the road I could add the kettle to 3 keg gravity system? Would there be any issues with that?

 

[swackattack]

Not really. Just would have to make sure what you get/make would fit it.

 

[BigKoiv]

wow! great video on BIAB... Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6WVul6IEKk

Really convinced me to ultimately do BIAB, no sparging, with 3 gal kegs. Looks super quick and convenient, yet still fully customizable.

Thanks for sharing this video. Very informative. I didn't realize you could brew all grain using all the same equipment as with extract.

I also like the idea of three gallon batches because I can practice more...

Good luck getting started in your new hobby... My first batch was a extract brew with specialty grains... It's seven days old. Welcome to the club.

 

[zeg]

Any corrections to my list? If not, please recommend places to buy each item. Thx! Getting pumped!

List looks good, but I agree with the above suggestion to consider 15 gal.

If your starter kit doesn't include an autosiphon, I'd add one of those to the list. Also make sure you have a decent thermometer with a long stem (doesn't have to be fancy, but be sure to check the calibration), a big spoon and/or mash paddle, and some big strong mesh bags suitable for holding 10-15 pounds of grain. There are various other sundries and measuring devices that are useful, too. I've found a small digital scale (0.1g increments up to 500g or so) is indispensible for measuring hops and nutrients, and I like to use a Pyrex measuring cup for rehydrating yeast. A bigger scale is also good for weighing grains and is often more convenient for measuring water quantities than a volume measure.

 

[TwoGunz]

It sounds like you're on the right track. I second (or third or fourth) the comment that one's brewing setup is personal and addresses each of our unique values. I'm personally all about simple and do all manual lifting and pouring. The BIAB setup you're zeroing in on will not be wasted because you may always want to make smaller test batches.

Somebody also mentioned the importance of yeast and fermentation control. This is another area you could invest in earlier on. Things like starter flasks, stir plates, and fermentation chambers would all be useful.

 

[BBL_Brewer]

Don't get an induction unit. Go propane or natural gas. If you want electric see the electric brewing section on how to use a heating element in the kettle. You want some BTU power trust me. If you want to start advanced and ahead of the game, get a bigger burner than you need. I started out with 32 tip natural gas burners when I was brewing 5 gallons and now I use the same burners to brew 30.

Edit

Also, if your budget allows, starting with a 15 gal kettle would be nice. The only thing I would worry about is making sure whatever wort chiller you get is put to good use. For instance, if you get an immersion chiller, some of the coils may not get submerged with a 5 gallon batch in a 15 gallon kettle taking it longer to cool the wort.