Starting a brewery

[user 298779]

here in the States, there's minimum 3 levels of burocracy you hve to deal with: Federal, State and Local. Every one has their own timeline of when things need to be done, and you have to bounce back and forth, and even if you're doing everything right, you can be nixed off by any one of the three, and not always for a good reason; maybe you looked at a town / city person wrong one day and that kills the whole thing.


I would join |ProBrewers website and forum,

talk to other local craft brewers about thier businesses. |Getting the straight poop might turn you one way or the other as to if it's something you really want to persue.

JRGTR42 has some outstanding advice IMHO. I’ve met with 4 owners already and had a few eye openers! Just last Friday one owner was telling me how much of a nightmare it was dealing with the city inspectors. They did their own build out and were delayed over six months waiting on sign-off even though they were meeting all codes (federal, state, and local). I’ve planned and managed industrial site planning, build outs, and startups and know how difficult it is, but I was still surprised but what nano brewery start ups had to go through.

Two thumbs up for joining ProBrewers

We had our business plan well underway and were taking additional steps to prep for pilothouse when I had an injury that set us back 2 years. In that time I’ve done some deep questioning on the pilothouse and put the brakes on moving forward; even though we live in an excellent area for this.

It’s really a PITA to get running so you’ll need lots of energy, patience, thick skin, good business acumen, and of course capital…and so much more from what others on this site share from their experience and expertise.

Keep us posted, and best of luck

Cheers

KBW.

 

[Komodo]

I worked with a designer on all the branding but it was mostly all my creative direction. She’s building the first few labels but I’ll be doing the rest of them as well as building the website, maintaining social media, etc.

Speaking as a designer working in marketing for thirty years, and homebrewer for same. Also, I’m not referring to you specifically but anyone tackling this startup process.

There are so many large expenditures and hurdles to jump, don’t cut any corners with your branding. It’s critical to the success of the whole venture, your first impression, the face of your business. Find someone with experience, not a young designer who can just give you label designs that look good, but one who has experience with branding on a large scale. Yes it will cost more, but it’s not something you will likely change often (or need to if done right the first time).

 

[couchsending]

Thank you! I am interested in everything, but I’m sure you don’t have the time for that. Did you use a consultant to assist in organizing all of the have-to-do’s? What was the timeline from when you decided to do this until 7 weeks ago? What were the stages of development like as you progressed?

Didn’t use a consultant but have quite a few contacts in the industry that helped out along the way. I’m sure a consultant would have helped some but not sure they would have paid for themselves or not.

It’s something that’s been in the back of my head for say 4 years. Started working on the brand side of things maybe 3 years ago on my own just mostly doing research on other breweries and learning about how they speak about their brand and products and what separates the good from the bad, the very successful from the not so, and really just focusing on ones that exist in the space that I wanted my brand to exist in.

Began brewing as much as possible in 2018 to try to create beers that would be unique in my local area. Focusing more on the science and process and its affect on texture, mouthfeel, and the overall act of consumption. To me this is something that’s really overlooked yet has a huge impact on whether people enjoy what they’re drinking or not. Brewed over 100 batches of beer a year in 2019 and 2020 all really just experimenting with different process variables and different water/ph targets to see what impact they would have on the beer.

I was offered a screaming deal on a steam 3.5bbl brewhouse and 3 7bbl FVs in December of 2018 I think which is what forced me to say screw it and jump in.
Started looking at spaces in January of 2019. In my mind there was only one spot in my town that would work for what I wanted to do. The landlord there was great and I looked at a bunch of different locations but nothing seemed to be quite right. The pandemic hit and I stopped looking and just focused on the beers and branding side of things and trying to source more used equipment. Started looking at spaces again in a July and found one that, while not perfect, could work in maybe August. Signed the lease in November 2020. I had collected some more used fermenters, brite tanks, and an oversized HLT and had them in storage.

Due to the pandemic everything took longer to get going than normal. Got my federal approval in 3 days which was insane. Working with the city was a rollercoaster to say the least. I have some allies there though and my GC has been here for 35 years and is very well liked and respected by the building dept. probably started buildout in maybe end of Feb and again it took longer due to all sorts of Pandemic related issues. Opened the doors 9/10 with 6 beers on tap. We have 10 now. Four different styles in cans, etc. Blend of modern hop forward styles with a quick sour or two and real traditional German and English styles as well. #bierflavoredbier

 

[couchsending]

Speaking as a designer working in marketing for thirty years, and homebrewer for same. Also, I’m not referring to you specifically but anyone tackling this startup process.

There are so many large expenditures and hurdles to jump, don’t cut any corners with your branding. It’s critical to the success of the whole venture, your first impression, the face of your business. Find someone with experience, not a young designer who can just give you label designs that look good, but one who has experience with branding on a large scale. Yes it will cost more, but it’s not something you will likely change often (or need to if done right the first time).

This 100000%. It’s just as important as the beer if not more so these days (sadly). I have been fortunate with my other job to be involved in two global rebranding exercises and work with agencies that have done branding/creative work for Nike, Master Craft, and many others. My designer works for a large agency with offices all over the world and has clients like Coke and ESPN. She had spare time during the pandemic to do stuff on the side and I gave her almost a year so she could do it at her leisure. I had a pretty detailed plan and examples for what I wanted the overall look and feel to be and she helped me bring it to life.

Here are a couple of our label designs that reflect our overall identity pretty well. One set of labels and creative identity for our #bierflavoredbier and another set for our more modern/hoppy stuff. I have no desire to distribute anything in cans so the standard branding guidelines of making your product easily identifiable and consistent on the shelves didn’t apply. We don’t focus on the logo itself like most places do, instead the overall design aesthetic that reflects the liquid inside the can is the focus. The logo and branding is subtle by design. Might but be for everyone but it is very reflective of our brand.

 

[JAReeves]

All very helpful!!!! Thank you for your honesty and experiences!

I have a background in design; art, photography, design and printing were the family business. I managed to leverage that experience into several international marketing and design awards. From there I entered into the culinary arts world with a Cordon Bleu degree, but that was cut short by an accident. I have been teaching full time (including teaching art and design) since, but always have at least one side business to afford being a teacher. My wife has been a professional bookkeeper/office manager for decades and one of our daughters is a social media star (not my wheelhouse!). I have been turning all of my past culinary experience toward beer brewing and the food science behind it.

Since we want to go back to being self-employed full-time, with our passion and experience, a brewpub is a natural fit. Question is; if we build it, will they come? That's where we are at right now as we look at locations, (re)write the business plan and proposal, work on menu design, logo, branding, etc.

 

[lyonsmith]

Hey JA

I went from Homebrewer to Brewery Co-Owner. It's been really amazing. One thing I definitely want to comment on here is...

"Since we want to go back to being self-employed full-time, with our passion and experience, a brewpub is a natural fit. Question is; if we build it, will they come? That's where we are at right now as we look at locations, (re)write the business plan and proposal, work on menu design, logo, branding, etc."

If you build it, they may not come. We opened up in 2015 in a small place in our village in the Finger Lakes of NY (Big Tourist Area). We planned on drawing tourists and locals. We struggled terribly. Part of the reason was we were in the Village, but down a side street that didn't get a lot of traffic, and no matter how many people I talked to it was like pulling teeth to get people there. We were forced to close that location (**** Landlord), but built a new place out of the Village, but on the main road. We are three times bigger than we were, and haven't looked back.

Really do your homework on the location. You may be amazing, but still not be a big enough draw to your location.

 

[JAReeves]

Hey JA

I went from Homebrewer to Brewery Co-Owner. It's been really amazing. One thing I definitely want to comment on here is...

"Since we want to go back to being self-employed full-time, with our passion and experience, a brewpub is a natural fit. Question is; if we build it, will they come? That's where we are at right now as we look at locations, (re)write the business plan and proposal, work on menu design, logo, branding, etc."

If you build it, they may not come. We opened up in 2015 in a small place in our village in the Finger Lakes of NY (Big Tourist Area). We planned on drawing tourists and locals. We struggled terribly. Part of the reason was we were in the Village, but down a side street that didn't get a lot of traffic, and no matter how many people I talked to it was like pulling teeth to get people there. We were forced to close that location (**** Landlord), but built a new place out of the Village, but on the main road. We are three times bigger than we were, and haven't looked back.

Really do your homework on the location. You may be amazing, but still not be a big enough draw to your location.

This is one of our major concerns. Thank you!

 

[superiorsat]

I opened 7 weeks ago. Happy to tell you anything and everything you’d like to know.

How many barrels a week are you running through the taps now that you have 10 beers on tap ( also is it the tourist season now that you talk about?)? How many days a week and the hours you've been open? I assume you had an opening push due to the excitement of being new and if so has that faded? Seems like the new breweries that open around here are really cranking for the first few weeks or so. Do you have any Covid restrictions holding you back? Thanks.

 

[couchsending]

How many barrels a week are you running through the taps now that you have 10 beers on tap ( also is it the tourist season now that you talk about?)? How many days a week and the hours you've been open? I assume you had an opening push due to the excitement of being new and if so has that faded? Seems like the new breweries that open around here are really cranking for the first few weeks or so. Do you have any Covid restrictions holding you back? Thanks.

At the moment 4bbl/week out the door in draft, cans, growlers. No distro.

Yes we were busy for the first two weeks and then business slowed but we’ve had a bunch of great press since then and business has picked back up. Last two days were our busiest days so far and most days before that were better than the same day the week before.

Based on the data I was able to gather from other ski town breweries October will be by far our slowest month of the year, followed by May, then September. Tourist season doesn’t really start here until December with March being the busiest month most likely. And it’s not just tourists it’s 2nd, 3rd, 4th home owners that come for months at a time. Town can go from 8,000 to easily 100,000 on a busy weekend. Winter is busier than summer but lately, not by much. It’s as dead as dead gets in the town right now.

We’re closed Monday/Tuesday. Open 4-8 or 9 W-Friday. 11-9 sat, 11-6 Sunday. Those hours will probably change here and there depending on the seasons.

We have no Covid restrictions at all, other than we have a pretty small space. Max capacity is 49 but we only have 26 seats. Were trying to keep the capacity around 30 and so far so good. We’ve intentionally been keeping the promotions to word of mouth and just posting stuff on the Gram but never promoting it.

 

[Jaybird]

^^^ That should be your first step. Put your plan in writing. Figure out how much money you need to start, how much money you think you'll make, and how exactly you'll get from point A to point B.

I would encourage you to figure out how much money you need to start and then double it or triple it and you will probably be very close. I've been a part of and assisted with several startups. You also need to double the amount of time it's going to take to do the project.
Then now that you have tripled the amount of money you think you need double the amount of time that you think it's going to take you also need to cut in half the amount of profit you think you will make and double the amount of time you think it's going to take for you to make it. I know this sounds very bleak. But it is a very very good close representation of any brand new startup. At least all of the ones that I've been a part of. And once all of that was put into play and you put all the numbers on paper and make that your goal you will be successful. Every single one of the startups that I've been a part of have been successful keeping this matrix in mind.

Cheers
Jay

 

[superiorsat]

At the moment 4bbl/week out the door in draft, cans, growlers. No distro.

Yes we were busy for the first two weeks and then business slowed but we’ve had a bunch of great press since then and business has picked back up. Last two days were our busiest days so far and most days before that were better than the same day the week before.

Based on the data I was able to gather from other ski town breweries October will be by far our slowest month of the year, followed by May, then September. Tourist season doesn’t really start here until December with March being the busiest month most likely. And it’s not just tourists it’s 2nd, 3rd, 4th home owners that come for months at a time. Town can go from 8,000 to easily 100,000 on a busy weekend. Winter is busier than summer but lately, not by much. It’s as dead as dead gets in the town right now.

We’re closed Monday/Tuesday. Open 4-8 or 9 W-Friday. 11-9 sat, 11-6 Sunday. Those hours will probably change here and there depending on the seasons.

We have no Covid restrictions at all, other than we have a pretty small space. Max capacity is 49 but we only have 26 seats. Were trying to keep the capacity around 30 and so far so good. We’ve intentionally been keeping the promotions to word of mouth and just posting stuff on the Gram but never promoting it.

Congratulations! It sounds like you are off to a great start. Is 10 where you are stopping tap wise or just building your way up as you go?

 

[lyonsmith]

I second what Jaybird said. You don't know what you don't know, and that stuff is going to hold up everything/ cost more money. Every brewery owner I've ever talked to cited the "triple your time for startup and money investment" and it was absolutely true in our case as well.

 

[NewJersey]

In my opinion a one barrel system can effectively supply a brew pub, but not a brewery that focuses on mostly beer and shipping beer.
But I also think the world needs more brew pubs and fewer micro breweries. I have had some crappy micro brews. Once was enough. Won't get it again. But places that make both good food and good beer will earn my return business. And my recommendation.

1bbl is just 2 kegs. Maybe ok, for lower sellers, but even a decently busy brewpub can kick double that over the weekend for their flagships

 

[JAReeves]

I am still in the planning stages, but a long-term pizza-pub around the corner has a 7 barrel system, and all of their pours are from the brite/serving tanks. I am looking at 7BBL because it can still do 3.5BBL without complications for experimental or seasonal brews. I expect to use kegs, though.

 

[rhorwitz]

I am still in the planning stages, but a long-term pizza-pub around the corner has a 7 barrel system, and all of their pours are from the brite/serving tanks. I am looking at 7BBL because it can still do 3.5BBL without complications for experimental or seasonal brews. I expect to use kegs, though.

Several years ago my wife and I wanted to do the same with a brew pub. We consulted a equipment vendor who told us that they do not recommend anything less than a 7 bbl system. They had several used 2 and 3 bbl system that they took on trade-in. That was back in 2011, I think the climate has changed and there is more interest in boutique beers made by nano breweries. However, the thought of brewing 3 times a week to keep the lights on certainly kills my passion. Good luck! BTW- Make a detailed business plan.

 

[lyonsmith]

If you aren't already, join up on probrewer.com. It's an excellent resource for new and used equipment, and hundreds of people who were in your shoes at one point or another. Also, if all this stuff hasn't scared you off, research the people you are getting your equipment from. I got totally boned when I bought my equipment, because the "American" reseller was really Canadian. I had no legal recourse to get my money back, or deliver on the agreed upon equipment. Emptor caveat, big time!

 

[lyonsmith]

I run two 2bbl systems with 3 "4bbl" fermenters. That way I can double batch into 1, or half batch specialty beers. I've outgrown them in 1 year. Taking delivery of two 8bbl Fermenters any day now. No distribution, just out of my taps and a couple of farmer's markets (woohoo NY Farm Brewery License!). Also, did away with the HLT's with two high end commercial instant tankless hot water heaters run in series, so my old HLT's are extra kettles. All direct fire. My linchpin is my mash tuns, but I will make do until I can upgrade again...

 

[rhorwitz]

I run two 2bbl systems with 3 "4bbl" fermenters. That way I can double batch into 1, or half batch specialty beers. I've outgrown them in 1 year. Taking delivery of two 8bbl Fermenters any day now. No distribution, just out of my taps and a couple of farmer's markets (woohoo NY Farm Brewery License!). Also, did away with the HLT's with two high end commercial instant tankless hot water heaters run in series, so my old HLT's are extra kettles. All direct fire. My linchpin is my mash tuns, but I will make do until I can upgrade again...

Tankless heaters instead of a HLT? electrical no doubt? Are those 8bbls jacketed? Is moving up to a glycol system really costly? Really excited for you.

Rick

 

[lyonsmith]

Tankless heaters instead of a HLT? electrical no doubt? Are those 8bbls jacketed? Is moving up to a glycol system really costly? Really excited for you.

Rick

Thanks!

I've been running jacketed tanks from the start. Temperature control is key, and you will never truly know the joy of jacketed tanks until you set your ETC to 68 degrees and go home for the day after brewing knowing that you will walk in in the morning to exactly that.
My glycol system is a Homebrewed setup of a long draw power pack glycol system. The double pump setup. I'm actually going to be chopping it up and trying a bigger glycol bath (from about 17-20 gallons to 50, same submerged refrigerant coils with individual small sump pumps to push to each tank. I've tried rigging etcs to fire solenoid valves and pumps. Not being an electrical engineer, and getting into needing relays... Nope. No thanks.
My tankless water heaters are LP. Much cheaper than my electric here. Also my burners (four 100000 btu burners) run LP, heat for the building and the tasting room hot water tank.

 

[superiorsat]

Also, did away with the HLT's with two high end commercial instant tankless hot water heaters run in series, so my old HLT's are extra kettles.

I would assume you are carbon filtering city water before the instant water heaters or something more complex like pumping from a RO CLT. What temp can you achieve with inline water heaters lets say in winter with cold ground water? Do they have a maximum setting or did you find a work around? Thanks.

 

[lyonsmith]

By using them in series, I can get the water to high 170s with a strong enough flow that I can rinse out my fermenters through the cip spray ball. They are set for 180, but I don't achieve that. But, I don't need to either.

 

[lyonsmith]

They are really designed for hotels or bigger commercial situations. It was a no brainer for me because my direct fire HLT's took nearly 2 hours to bring the water to mash temp in the morning. Now I can mash in in the time it takes me to Mill.

I don't treat my water at all. I've had no problems with the water at my location.

 

[superiorsat]

"They are really designed for hotels or bigger commercial situations."

Can you post brand and model as I would like to look into these. Thanks. Are they for your whole building including sinks and everything or just for the brewery operations?

Edit- I guess it would be a risk of scalding someone's hands at the bathroom sink unless they had a faucet that could be set like a shower does with the max temp blend valve. I would like to by pass the regular water heater if possible and the would also free up my 100 gallon HLT as a secondary brew kettle. I can set a timer so no big deal if I wanted to set the night before and it is ready to go when I want it. Just thinking forward for an expansion like you have done. I've got a 50 gallon pot with mesh basket that works for a MT that could run side by side double herms with my 100 gallon MT if I get to your situation at some point.

 

[lyonsmith]

Can you post brand and model as I would like to look into these. Thanks. Are they for your whole building including sinks and everything or just for the brewery operations?

They are Navien and I think the model is NPE-180S. I will try to remember to check when I get there today.

I only use those for my brewery water and my utility sink and keg washer. The tasting room has its own tank style water heater. These are set far too hot to use in the tasting room, and I don't want my folks to scald themselves. Also, in the brewery any water outlet that hooks up to them have signage that the water is a dangerous temperature. Safety first, kids!

 

[NewJersey]

I run two 2bbl systems with 3 "4bbl" fermenters. That way I can double batch into 1, or half batch specialty beers. I've outgrown them in 1 year. Taking delivery of two 8bbl Fermenters any day now. No distribution, just out of my taps and a couple of farmer's markets (woohoo NY Farm Brewery License!). Also, did away with the HLT's with two high end commercial instant tankless hot water heaters run in series, so my old HLT's are extra kettles. All direct fire. My linchpin is my mash tuns, but I will make do until I can upgrade again...

You're doing 8bbl DIRECT FIRE???!?!?!?!

 

[NewJersey]

They are Navien and I think the model is NPE-180S. I will try to remember to check when I get there today.

I only use those for my brewery water and my utility sink and keg washer. The tasting room has its own tank style water heater. These are set far too hot to use in the tasting room, and I don't want my folks to scald themselves. Also, in the brewery any water outlet that hooks up to them have signage that the water is a dangerous temperature. Safety first, kids!

I have that brand in my house and the highest it goes is 150⁰. Home and commercial are different I suppose

 

[lyonsmith]

You're doing 8bbl DIRECT FIRE???!?!?!?!

Yes, in 4 2bbl batches.

 

[NewJersey]

Yes, in 4 2bbl batches.

Why do you hate yourself so much??

 

[lyonsmith]

Why do you hate yourself so much??

Can't afford to upgrade my brewhouse yet. I can afford to work a twelve hour day to not run out of beer in the tasting room, = more money, = I can afford to upgrade my brewhouse sooner.

 

[bwible]

In my opinion a one barrel system can effectively supply a brew pub, but not a brewery that focuses on mostly beer and shipping beer.
But I also think the world needs more brew pubs and fewer micro breweries. I have had some crappy micro brews. Once was enough. Won't get it again. But places that make both good food and good beer will earn my return business. And my recommendation.

This was my exact thought. We have a local brewpub started by my neighbors. They started small with a 1 bbl system. They were brewing all the time. They grew it into a larger and much nicer brewpub. But they are still a brewpub. They do not bottle or can. They sell growlers for takeout. Despite the growth, they all still have their day jobs doing IT or whatever.

A mistake people make is they think a brewpub is a brewery with a restaurant attached. Its actually the other way around. A brewpub is a restaurant with a brewery attached. You need good food and a good menu. People will come for the food and you will sell beer.