Starters with Dextrose?

[Hemi]

Anyone ever try making starters using dextrose oppose to DME or opinons on using such?

 

[DeathBrewer]

you want your starter acclimated for for your brew. use dme if you can.

 

[ajf]

The purpose of a starter is to produce a adequate number of healthy yeast cells to ferment your wort. For the yeast cells to multiply sufficiently and remain healthy, they require a healthy diet. Dextrose is not a healthy diet for yeast.

-a.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Do you let your children eat sugary cereals with extra sugar on top?

Then why would you feed that to your yeast.


Seriously, I don't think it makes much sense from a brewing standpoint, but if it saves you time or is more convenient for you, then go ahead, give it a try, and report back.

 

[Hemi]

Since keeping children from bouncing off the walls is generally a parents preference, I would definitely omit any additional sugar on their cereal...but my yeast bouncing off the walls is the objective . I'm out of DME and didn't use a starter on my last batch since this was the case. Later thought that since I have a nice amount of Dextrose as well as yeast nutrients, I see no realistic reason why this wouldn't make sense to use as a starter. If anyone has a "realistic" reason why this would be bad...I'm still up for opinions

 

[Nostrildamus]

Ahh hell, dump some Aunt Jemima's and Kool-Aid in there and let them go bonkers.

 

[Hemi]

Ahh hell, dump some Aunt Jemima's and Kool-Aid in there and let them go bonkers.

LOL...If making a Maple Nut Ale, Aunt Jemima may not be such a bad idea if high fructose corn syrup was slightly more fermentable

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Since keeping children from bouncing off the walls is generally a parents preference, I would definitely omit any additional sugar on their cereal...but my yeast bouncing off the walls is the objective . I'm out of DME and didn't use a starter on my last batch since this was the case. Later thought that since I have a nice amount of Dextrose as well as yeast nutrients, I see no realistic reason why this wouldn't make sense to use as a starter. If anyone has a "realistic" reason why this would be bad...I'm still up for opinions

The reasoning behind using wort is that as the yeast multiply, and then "bulk up and get stronger" they will be undergoing some natural selection. So... do you want the stronger yeast to be those that can consume a simple sugar such as dextrose? Or those that are more adept at eating through complex sugars found in beer, such as maltose?

"Simple sugar" and "complex sugar" by the way are scientific terms, it's not just a way of making my point. The sugars require different mechanisms to be broken down by the yeast.

But with that said, you already have a nearly pitchable quantity of yeast and I don't think the type of fermentable will matter much during the reproduction phase, only the fermentation phase. Therefore, you will almost certainly be able to get a good batch or two out of the dextrose starter... but I wouldn't chance it unless I didn't have another option. In other words, I guess it would work.. but I don't think it's ideal.

 

[Hemi]

The reasoning behind using wort is that as the yeast multiply, and then "bulk up and get stronger" they will be undergoing some natural selection. So... do you want the stronger yeast to be those that can consume a simple sugar such as dextrose? Or those that are more adept at eating through complex sugars found in beer, such as maltose?

"Simple sugar" and "complex sugar" by the way are scientific terms, it's not just a way of making my point. The sugars require different mechanisms to be broken down by the yeast.

But with that said, you already have a nearly pitchable quantity of yeast and I don't think the type of fermentable will matter much during the reproduction phase, only the fermentation phase. Therefore, you will almost certainly be able to get a good batch or two out of the dextrose starter... but I wouldn't chance it unless I didn't have another option. In other words, I guess it would work.. but I don't think it's ideal.

I can see your trail of thought and decided to check on what a scientist thought of this. Yeast love simple sugars such as dextrose (aka glucose) and fructose (fruit sugar) as well as honey and produce excellent flavored alcohols (both in beer and wine) and ALL encourage healthy yeast production which is why they are all used in wine as well as beer. Maltose is a yeast favorite with dextrose right beside it and fructose in third. I was very surprisingly fructose is not even close to a favorite as maltose and dextrose as it is the primary sugar found in wine.

In conclusion for anyone who is out of DME, Dextrose with or without yeast nutrients would make an excellent starter.

Thanks to those who participated!

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

I can see your trail of thought and decided to check on what a scientist thought of this. Yeast love simple sugars such as dextrose and fructose (fruit sugar) as well as honey and produce excellent flavored alcohols (both in beer and wine) and ALL encourage healthy yeast production which is why they are all used in wine as well as beer. Maltose is a yeast favorite with dextrose right beside it and fructose as a close third.

I don't disagree that they will produce "healthy" yeast. Nobody suggested they wouldn't be healthy. What we suggested is that they will not be as good for the fermentation of complex sugars. A population of a billion healthy yeast is one thing. A population of a billion healthy yeast that have become accustomed to fermenting maltose may be a different thing entirely. And until you've run some experiments, you won't really know the answer any better than I. After all, I have my doubts about scientists......

"Maltose is a yeast favorite". That's a really weird phrase. My science background tells me that it is borderline nonsensical. Wouldn't that depend on which strain of yeast you were using? I hear some strains of yeast prefer lactose, while beer yeasts won't ferment it at all. So the statement is just pure silliness. So... are you sure that the scientist knew what he was talking about? It sounds like a bunch of awfully vague statements...

Yeast love simple sugars such as dextrose and fructose (fruit sugar) as well as honey and produce excellent flavored alcohols (both in beer and wine)...

Have you ever actually tasted alcohol made from straight dextrose with nothing else added? I wouldn't call it "excellent flavor". Oh.. and honey is only about 2/3rds simple sugar. That, in part, is why a mead can take a year or more to finish fermenting

I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not saying using dextrose wouldn't work. I am sure it WOULD work. But a hammer works as a screwdriver too. Doesn't mean it will yield the best results...

 

[Hemi]

I don't disagree that they will produce "healthy" yeast. Nobody suggested they wouldn't be healthy.

scroll up

What we suggested is that they will not be as good for the fermentation of complex sugars.

Not trying to say your wrong as Maltose is slightly better for yeast metabolism however there are NO other complex "carbohydrates" better for this other then the simple sugar dextrose which once again Maltose is only "slightly" when looking at the yeasts respiration.

"Maltose is a yeast favorite". That's a really weird phrase. My science background tells me that it is borderline nonsensical.

Your science background is right as this was put into layman's terms not scientific. The scientific answer your probably looking for would be Maltose and dextrose is best for yeast metabolism and yeast respiration. Yeast are made of 2 glucose molecules (dextrose) so dextrose is great for healthy cell production.

Wouldn't that depend on which strain of yeast you were using? I hear some strains of yeast prefer lactose, while beer yeasts won't ferment it at all. So the statement is just pure silliness. So... are you sure that the scientist knew what he was talking about? It sounds like a bunch of awfully vague statements...

Well actually to say cheese is made using yeast is sorta silly as cheese is made from bacterium not yeast (fungus). Not to say other types of fungus is not important to some types of cheese as there is obviously such a thing as blue cheese .

I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not saying using dextrose wouldn't work. I am sure it WOULD work. But a hammer works as a screwdriver too. Doesn't mean it will yield the best results...

I like your analogy, however maybe a more accurate one would be the difference between using a Dewalt screw driver and a Black and Decker

Once again this forum is made to possibly open up other brewing techniques and discuss potentially false opinions and techniques on a friendly level, not to call anyone out for not knowing what they are talking about. I'm definitely gonna try it myself using a control sample to confirm the scientific facts.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Once again this forum is made to possibly open up other brewing techniques and discuss potentially false opinions and techniques on a friendly level, not to call anyone out for not knowing what they are talking about. I'm definitely gonna try it myself using a control sample to confirm the scientific facts.

Ok... so you're saying you're really interested in determining whether a Black and Decker will work when you have a shiny new DeWalt sitting in the workshop?

More power to ya! I'll definitely be interested to hear the results!!!

 

[Hemi]

Ok... so you're saying you're really interested in determining whether a Black and Decker will work when you have a shiny new DeWalt sitting in the workshop?

More power to ya! I'll definitely be interested to hear the results!!!

Now we are on the same page! The DeWalt is 20 miles away and I want to know if this perfectly good Black and Decker screw driver can actually be used as a screw driver . If so I see little sense not using it .

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Take it a step farther. See whether TABLE sugar will work. You don't have to worry about the taste ruining your beer... just pour off most of the liquid before adding the yeast to the beer.

 

[brewt00l]

Back to the topic...there are lots of online resources that mention using dextrose for your starter and lots that recommend avoiding it. John Palmer suggests the following:

A key condition to this recommendation is that the composition of the starter wort and the main wort must be very similar if the starter is pitched at or near peak activity. Why? Because the yeast in the starter wort have produced a specific set of enzymes for that wort's sugar profile. If those yeast are then pitched to a different wort, with a different relative percentage of sugars, the yeast will be impaired and the fermentation may be affected. Kind of like trying to change boats in mid-stream. This is especially true for starter worts made from extract that includes refined sugars. Yeast that has been eating sucrose, glucose/dextrose, or fructose will quit making the enzyme that allows it to eat maltose - the main sugar of brewer's wort.

If you make your starter using a malt extract that includes refined sugar, it is better to wait until the yeast have finished fermenting and settled out before pitching to the main wort. Why? Because towards the end of fermentation, yeast build up their glycogen and trehalose reserves; kind of like a bear storing fat for the winter. Glycogen and trehalose are two carbohydrates that act as food reserves for the yeast cell. Yeast slowly feed off these reserves when other food is not present, and use this food extensively to fuel the synthesis of essential lipids, sterols, and unsaturated fatty acids when pitched to an oxygenated wort.

Full text:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-6.html

Choice is yours....

 

[Hemi]

Take it a step farther. See whether TABLE sugar will work. You don't have to worry about the taste ruining your beer... just pour off most of the liquid before adding the yeast to the beer.

Would make an interesting additional experiment as sucrose is only slightly more fermentable then lactose but I wouldn't mind seeing the differences first hand as I'm always interested in improving my techniques and fermentation education. I need to get some more Erlenmeyer Flasks and a microscope! Hell might as well go the whole nine yards and get me lab coat and beer hat :rockin:

 

[brewt00l]

Btw if sourcing DME is an issue & you don't want to go the dextrose route, look in your local grocery store for malta goya. Search a few forums for it and you can read folks experience using it for starters.

 

[Hemi]

Because the yeast in the starter wort have produced a specific set of enzymes for that wort's sugar profile. If those yeast are then pitched to a different wort, with a different relative percentage of sugars, the yeast will be impaired and the fermentation may be affected.

I've always enjoyed John Palmer's views on fermentation and generally take what he says as accurately scientific as most of the brewing world does. This explanation makes a lot of sense and appreciate your reference. If this is true yeasts would have to start developing enzymes that could break down maltose after being accustom to glucose or sucrose (wonder how long this process takes and if yeast born with the same enzyme the parent last used for digestion). I think this will be an interesting experiment using maltose starter as a control, dextrose and sucrose and pitching into 4 different gallon jugs, one not having a starter at all and see how the yeast respiration is effected. I'm thinking the maltose starter will definitely win, dextrose in second, table sugar a distant third and no starter almost right next to using table sugar.

With this said the yeasts will develop the proper enzymes to digest the sugars they are offered, so the question would be will dextrose be better then no starter. As John Palmer briefly explains, yeast build up their glycogen and trehalose reserves therefore it would be best to wait for your starter to have finished fermentation if they have been eating anything that included refined sugar.

Thank you for finding that!

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Now we are on the same page! The DeWalt is 20 miles away and I want to know if this perfectly good Black and Decker screw driver can actually be used as a screw driver . If so I see little sense not using it .

I would just pee on it.

 

[brewt00l]

I I think this will be an interesting experiment using maltose starter as a control, dextrose and sucrose and pitching into 4 different gallon jugs, one not having a starter at all and see how the yeast respiration is effected. I'm thinking the maltose starter will definitely win, dextrose in second, table sugar a distant third and no starter almost right next to using table sugar.

Sounds like an interesting experiment and I would definitely like to hear the results.

 

[ajf]

If anyone has a "realistic" reason why this would be bad...I'm still up for opinions

I'm sorry you feel that way. I tried it myself sometime in the early 1980s, and the result was a total disaster. It took forever for the brew to start fermenting, and never got close to the FG that I wanted.

As far as I'm concerned, that's a very "realistic" reason for my reply.

Palmer seems to have come up with at least one explanation, but the internet didn't exist in those days.

-a.

 

[DeathBrewer]

i believe the problem has already been discussed many times on this thread. beer is not being properly acclimated, beer is becoming accustomed to simple sugars, beer is not producing the proper enzymes.

pretty much all mean the same thing. experimentation isn't going to change this fact, but if dextrose is all you have, it will work.

 

[Hemi]

i believe the problem has already been discussed many times on this thread. beer is not being properly acclimated, beer is becoming accustomed to simple sugars, beer is not producing the proper enzymes.

pretty much all mean the same thing. experimentation isn't going to change this fact, but if dextrose is all you have, it will work.

Yes Death, on page 2 Brewt00l has located the information which compliments your response with the reasons why. So for those of us who like to learn and understand the facts and science of fermentation, we feel that much smarter

And Ajf no worries as I was vague when I said opinions but do appreciate you chiming in.

 

[Muss]

Because towards the end of fermentation, yeast build up their glycogen and trehalose reserves; kind of like a bear storing fat for the winter. Glycogen and trehalose are two carbohydrates that act as food reserves for the yeast cell. Yeast slowly feed off these reserves when other food is not present, and use this food extensively to fuel the synthesis of essential lipids, sterols, and unsaturated fatty acids when pitched to an oxygenated wort.

OMG yeast cells are smart little buggers aren't they!

 

[DeathBrewer]

Yes Death, on page 2 Brewt00l has located the information which compliments your response with the reasons why. So for those of us who like to learn and understand the facts and science of fermentation, we feel that much smarter

And Ajf no worries as I was vague when I said opinions but do appreciate you chiming in.

yeah, sorry for the vague answers...i didn't feel like looking it all up :cross: