Starter really done already?

[Mothman]

I made my first starter yesterday around noon.

I followed the amounts as per this calculator http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php, boiled up the right amount of DME (used amber, because I happened to ahve some) in the right amount of water, cooled, poured into sanitized jug, shook the bejesus out of it, poured in the yeast (Wyeast 1335), swirled, covered with sanitized foil, and set it aside.

The only thing that didn't really go to plan was the nutrient pack in the smack pack didn't open, so when I pitched the yeast I poured a bit of the contents of the nutrients in with it. Figured it wasn't necessary, but also figured it couldn't hurt.

In my mind I pictured the starter being active starting maybe around supper time and maybe taking a few days to finish up, after which I'd put it in the fridge waiting for my brew day a couple weeks from then.

However, next time I remembered to give it a swirl was around 3 pm I think (so about 2.5-3 hrs later), and at that time, there was already a thick band of flocculated yeast at the bottom, and no visible activity at all in the starter.

I swirled it, and proceeded to swirl again every couple hours until I went to bed. Each time I looked at it, it was as still as can be, with the band of yeast rebuilt on the bottom. Same thing this morning.

Immediately after swirling, of course it all looks milky, but once settled, there is a thick yeast band at the bottom, and the "beer" on top is relatively clear (though somewhat dark, due to having used amber DME)

So... is it possible that it's done? Does it make sense that the yeast could have done their thing, producing no evidence of krausen, and flocculated, within those first 2 or 3 hours??

Or... is it more likely that it actually hasn't started yet?

Never having done a starter... and due to the fact that I brew my beers in a bucket, and I can't see what wort looks like pre-, and during-fermentation... I don't really know what it should look like at various stages.


Assuming it really did do it's thing, and it's done, I guess I should put it into the fridge now? It'll be there for around 3 weeks. Any problem with that?

 

[Dcpcooks]

Three hours is very fast for completion. 12-18 hours is about right for an average starter.

No harm in waiting it out. You can stick it in the fridge and let the yeast settle. Then you can pour off the spent wort and let it warm up during brew day.

Cheers

 

[Mothman]

Does the fact that yeast is falling out to the bottom indicate that it successfully "did it's thing"?

Again, not having experience viewing wort immediately after pitching yeast, or while actively fermenting, I don't know if yeast always settles out soon after pitching, and then stirs itself up once it gets active? Or if it stays in suspension from the start, and only settles out once it goes dormant, and the fact that I never saw it in suspension in the starter is just that I missed looking at that point in time?

Guess basically I'm wondering if there's a possibility that the yeast I poured into the starter, just sank to the bottom and it's just sat there every since, thumbing it's nose at me. lol

 

[flars]

How old was the yeast? Reduced viability due to age may extend the time the yeast will ferment the starter wort. Keep aerating. Aeration won't cause any problems even if the yeast fermented the wort quickly.

 

[Mothman]

The pack was manufactured July 19, 2017.

The yeast calculator estimated approx. 60% viability.

I'm happy to let it continue to do it's thing, I'm in no hurry. Just looking for some reassurance that it actually is / was / will do it's thing. lol I would have expected that if it was still actively fermenting, I'd see SOME activity, and not see so much of the yeast laying at the bottom of the jug.

I've read a lot that yeast are very good at what they do, and it's hard to F- them up too badly... but as this is my first kick at a new process (the starter), and as it didn't display expected behaviour (expected to me, the noob), I can't help have new-guy doubts.

How do I know, whether today, tomorrow, or a week from now, that the yeast did actually go through fermentation/growth?

Do I need take a gravity reading? Or can I tell visually, just based on the fact that the yeast has fallen out to the bottom of the jug?

If it's helpful, I can take pic of it, once it's settled, when I get home from work.

 

[ba-brewer]

You can do a gravity reading to see if the yeast did anything. If you are doing just shaking for aeration then I would give a day or two. Growth is slower and lower than using a stir plate.

When you shook it did it foam up like there was co2 in suspension?

Also how big was the starter and what was the gravity?

 

[Mothman]

So, on returning home, I see there is now, finally, some signs of life.

I've got a bit of bubbling going on, not a lot, but some, so all seems like it is probably going to be just fine. RDWHAHB, right?

ba-brewer, to answer your question, in case others are following, yes, when I shake, I do get foaming. Whether it's due to CO2 in suspension or not, I don't know.

The starter is 1.5L, 150 g of DME, OG measured with a refractometer was 9.5 brix (1.038).

As it seems like I do have activity now, I guess my question becomes, how do I know/decide when it's gone long enough, and move it to the fridge?

 

[mongoose33]

The best way to do a starter is on a stir plate. This helps oxygen diffuse into the starter, which supports the development of yeast cell walls and encourages replication.

If you don't have a stir plate, then shaking the starter as often as you reasonably can is a substitute.

Much like pitching yeast into wort to make beer, it takes a while for the yeast to get going. The number DCPCooks gives--12-18 hours--is the one I generally consider as how long I should have a starter going before either crashing it or pitching into the wort.

I did a starter Friday night--the yeast went in at 9:30pm. I pitched it the next afternoon at 1pm, so it was 15 1/2 hours.

If you do not shake or put on a stir plate, until the yeast get going enough to create a bubbling and roiling of the starter wort, it's just going to settle to the bottom.

When I pitched my yeast at 1pm Saturday, there was little evidence of activity for a good 9 or 10 hours before it really got going. So I wouldn't have expected yours to go faster than that--especially since you didn't add much of the nutrient pack (and btw, use that every time).

So--keep shaking as it's going so as to get as much oxygen into the starter as you can. You're making new yeast cells, and they need oxygen to do that.

**************

Many people--most?--will crash the starter in the refrigerator so as to get the yeast to settle out on the bottom. Then they'll decant as much of the remaining "beer" as they can, and pitch the rest into the wort.

Or you can just pitch it right in, which is what I've been doing lately. Can't taste any difference in the result, and I don't have to go through the crashing and decanting thing. It drops the OG by about a point, but that doesn't hurt anything. And I think it takes off sooner as I try to get it to be the same temp as the wort.

YMMV.

 

[ba-brewer]

if you shake it a little and that causes it to really foam up like if you shook up a warm beer, then the yeast was working and there is CO2 in suspension. If you have to work to make it foam up like the first time then the yeast is not that active.

You should make sure the wort turns milky/cloudy before you let it settle out. I would give it at least 24hrs from the point it looks active.

 

[Mothman]

OK so to make sure I'm understanding, once it gets active (now, hopefully), it shouldn't settle out at room temperature like it was before? It should stay milky with yeast in suspension?

Then in a day or so, into the fridge, that stops the yeast and causes them to drop out again, but there will be more yeast than there was before.

Am I understanding correctly?

 

[ba-brewer]

yes you got it.

There may be some that does flocculate out but the wort/beer/growth medium should be quite cloudy. Keeps swirling shaking.

 

[Mothman]

So maybe this is a dumb question... But starter calculators give an estimated final cell count... But if I'm shutting down down the yeast while it's still going, am I actually achieving the estimated amount?

 

[ba-brewer]

It is all an estimate, just go with what the calculator tells you.

I like the calculator you used as it will identify if you are outside of best practices for making a starter. If you have a field that turns red make adjustments.

 

[Mothman]

ba-brewer, thanks for the patience with all these questions.

I understand the calculators are estimates... but what I'm trying to understand is, how do I know when my starter has achieved what the calculators are estimating it's going to achieve?

I see a lot of people say their starters are pretty much done within the first 24 hrs or so. If I had put mine in the fridge at the 24 hr mark, I'm guessing I wouldn't have achieved very much, considering it really only started showing signs of life at around the 24 hr mark.

So now that it's active, how do I decide how long to give it before I shut it down? Given that I'm not brewing for another couple weeks (I know I made the starter way earlier than I needed to) I will be refrigerating the starter... just need to know how to decide when to do that.

Do I wait now for signs of fermentation to stop, let it ferment out?

 

[mongoose33]

I think the issue is not having shaken or oxygenated the starter wort; not putting most of the nutrient packet also didn't help.

So I'd expect it to be slow. After maybe 30 hours, I'd put it in the fridge. And keep shaking it.

 

[flars]

ba-brewer, thanks for the patience with all these questions.

I understand the calculators are estimates... but what I'm trying to understand is, how do I know when my starter has achieved what the calculators are estimating it's going to achieve?

I see a lot of people say their starters are pretty much done within the first 24 hrs or so. If I had put mine in the fridge at the 24 hr mark, I'm guessing I wouldn't have achieved very much, considering it really only started showing signs of life at around the 24 hr mark.

So now that it's active, how do I decide how long to give it before I shut it down? Given that I'm not brewing for another couple weeks (I know I made the starter way earlier than I needed to) I will be refrigerating the starter... just need to know how to decide when to do that.

Do I wait now for signs of fermentation to stop, let it ferment out?

Take your starter flask off the stir plate every 6 to 8 hours or so and swirl it. No foam formation means CO2 is no longer being produced. The yeast is inactive and the starter is fermented out.

 

[Dcpcooks]

The bulk of the yeast will floc out when it's done with growth. On a stir plate that's harder to see as it's still swirling. It should be easier to see without a stir plate but it will also take longer to go through the growth phase with out the stir plate.

 

[Mothman]

Thanks everyone.

The starter was still bubbling calmly this morning, so I'll leave it until after work and check again to see if it's settled, and if so I'll move it to the fridge.

 

[ba-brewer]

ba-brewer, thanks for the patience with all these questions.

I understand the calculators are estimates... but what I'm trying to understand is, how do I know when my starter has achieved what the calculators are estimating it's going to achieve?

I see a lot of people say their starters are pretty much done within the first 24 hrs or so. If I had put mine in the fridge at the 24 hr mark, I'm guessing I wouldn't have achieved very much, considering it really only started showing signs of life at around the 24 hr mark.

So now that it's active, how do I decide how long to give it before I shut it down? Given that I'm not brewing for another couple weeks (I know I made the starter way earlier than I needed to) I will be refrigerating the starter... just need to know how to decide when to do that.

Do I wait now for signs of fermentation to stop, let it ferment out?

I would guess the people that say they are done in 24hrs are using a stir plate. I am sure I read that if you use the intermittent shaking method you need 36 to 48 hours but I could not find it. The "White and Zainashelf Yeast book" says 24 to 48 hour for a starter. It also says some people allow the start to completely ferment out. I have a stir plate but I go by how the wort/beer looks more than time, when the foam is gone and there is yeast falling out I allow the starter to finish up off the stir plate.

If you do not plan to use the yeast for couple weeks I would stop shaking after 24hr to 36hrs of active fermentation and just wait for the yeast to naturally fall out before cold crashing. Even if you use a stir plate it is a good idea to allow the yeast to settle for a while before crashing so they can build up reserves.

I have allowed a starter to sit for 2 weeks before using, but in general it is better to use it sooner than later.

 

[kh54s10]

If by it is bubbling, you mean that an airlock is bubbling, take it off. The yeast need oxygen to reproduce. Cover the top of the starter vessel with a sanitized piece of aluminum foil. I would let a shake it when you think about it starter go at least 36 hours. With a stirplate it takes about 18 hours in most cases. The difference is that with a stirplate, oxygen is getting mixed in constantly. With intermittent shaking you give it a burst of oxygen then nothing then another burst etc.

 

[Upthewazzu]

I would guess the people that say they are done in 24hrs are using a stir plate. I am sure I read that if you use the intermittent shaking method you need 36 to 48 hours but I could not find it. The "White and Zainashelf Yeast book" says 24 to 48 hour for a starter. It also says some people allow the start to completely ferment out. I have a stir plate but I go by how the wort/beer looks more than time, when the foam is gone and there is yeast falling out I allow the starter to finish up off the stir plate.

Indeed, prior to getting a stir plate, I let it sit out on the counter for at least 48 hours, sometimes a little longer. Now, with a stir plate, it goes for 24 hours and then into the fridge.

 

[Mothman]

If by it is bubbling, you mean that an airlock is bubbling, take it off. The yeast need oxygen to reproduce. Cover the top of the starter vessel with a sanitized piece of aluminum foil. I would let a shake it when you think about it starter go at least 36 hours. With a stirplate it takes about 18 hours in most cases. The difference is that with a stirplate, oxygen is getting mixed in constantly. With intermittent shaking you give it a burst of oxygen then nothing then another burst etc.

Sorry, that wasn't very clear was it... no I don't have an air lock, just sanitized foil pushed down over the top. By "bubbling" I meant visible CO2 bubbling up through the starter.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

The first thing that comes to mind is...did you aerate the wort before pitching the yeast? I shake the trap out of it till it's frothing and foamy before pitching. That would give the starter a very slow start.

As far as duration, maybe I'm doing it wrong. I use a stir plate and I usually go 36 hours before cold crashing. My starters go nuts, many times foaming post the foil. It's usually still very frothy when I crash.

 

[Mothman]

Yes I aerated to a big froth before pitching. Don't know why it waited so long to get going, maybe the yeast pack hadn't been handled properly.

In any case, yesterday evening, the activity seemed to have stopped, or at least nearly stopped, and I moved it to the fridge. At the time I moved it to cold crash it was about 32 hrs since I first saw activity (but about 56 hrs after first pitching).

Nice thick layer of yeast on the bottom this morning, all appears good.

 

[Mothman]

Just thought I'd complete the story on this first attempt at a starter.

I finally managed to get brew day in yesterday.

I pulled the starter out of the fridge as I started heating my strike water.

When I was ready to pitch I carefully poured off most of the starter wort, swirled up the remainder, and pitched it.

I noticed the first occasional airlock bubble about 5 hours later and this morning it's going strong.

All seems to have gone well.