• Please visit and share your knowledge at our sister communities:
  • If you have not, please join our official Homebrewing Facebook Group!

    Homebrewing Facebook Group

Starter or not to Starter??????

Homebrew Talk

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

DSMbrewer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2010
Messages
83
Reaction score
0
Location
Des Moines
That is the question......after a longer than should have been hiatus from brewing, I still have the ? in the back of my diluted mind......should I make starters for my beers or keep on with the smack packs? 1056 has been my friend since my reincarnation into the brewing world and my ferments have been really good...I like big IPA's and I'm usually OG in the 1.080 range and FG in the 1.015 to 1.010 range with just smackin the pack and pitchin it..Seem to be lotsa schools of thought on this one.....any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.....Merry Christmas BTW..........
 
a starter will give you a larger initial cell count which should equal happier yeast. happier yeast make a cleaner beer (especially with that strain).
 
bought a starter kit from my LHBS... making it now, shall be pitching this time tommorow.
 
Yup, thought it would be cool to boil in the flask and had a huge boilover... into the saucepan it went.
 
a starter will give you a larger initial cell count which should equal happier yeast. happier yeast make a cleaner beer (especially with that strain).

True, but depending on what yeast he's using I'd probably just pitch 2 smack packs. These days I've given up on starters unless I'm using some specialty yeast that's hard to get a hold of or more expensive. I'd rather spend a few extra bucks on a 2nd pack then spend the time doing a starter, but that's just me.

If you're using dry yeast I'd definatley just spend the extra $1.60 for a second pack rather than fart around with a starter.
 
I think the OG would determine if a starter is needed or not. I have brewed 60 batches very successfully without a starter, but all under 1.070
 
If you time your starter right, you'll start seeing airlock activity within 4 hours of pitching your starter. A very satisfying finish to a long day of brewing.
 
Sheesh, I'm in the middle of this very same decision tree.

I'm making the jump into 10 gallon batches and most of my brews are around 1.06. I'm also using dry yeast lately.

I've had people telling me not to make starters with dry yeast but nobody has hard and fast numbers as to why.

If I'm making 5 gallons of 1.06 beer with S-04 and I use a 2L starter of 1.04 og starter, what's happening? Is this overpitch bogeyman?

How can I calculate the cell count?

Wyeast's calculator says that 1.06 beer needs 6 million/ml, but that 1.061 needs double that rate. Is it ok to float around in between?

I've been searching the forum and I can't seem to find anything beyond opinions without citations.
 
Unless I'm using dry yeast, I always make a starter. I have not had a stuck fermentation since doing so. Well, there is one exception. My last Saison using WY3724 stuck at 1.035, but that is typical for that strain.
 
I'm with ya manoaction.......all opinion without data to back it up......I'm prone to go to Mr. Malty and see how that works for the next few batches....gonna do a scotch wee heavy next for the winter time and will do a starter for that batch...I''ll report in
 
It's really a good idea to make starters when using ANY liguid yeast, smack pack, tube, or the jar of washed at the back of your fridge, for all beers above 1.020 OG...

The biggest reason I suggest folks make a starter is if you make one you'll have peace of mind.

And you won't be starting an "is my yeast dead" thread in a couple of days. (Which then one of us will answer with...."Had you made a starter..." :D

Making a starter first insures that your yeast is still alive and viable before you dump it in your beer. You will be less likely to start one of those "is my yeast dead?" threads that are on here every day.

You will also ensure that you have enough yeast usually the tubes and smack packs are a lot less yeast that you really should use for healthy fermentation.

Making a starter also usually means your beer will take off sooner, because the first thing that the little buggers do in the presence of wort (whether in a flask or in a fermenter) is have an orgy to reproduce enough cells to do the job...So it won't take such a long time in the fermenter since they started doing it in the flask.

Additionally it is better for the yeast to consume and reproduce incrementally rather than just dumping them into the fermenter...The yeast will be less stressed out than if you just dump them in.

Stressed out yeast can lead to a lot of off flavors...maybe even (though rare) the dreaded autolysis....Or the curse of 1.030....getting a stuck fermentation because the yeast have bit the dust.

So making a starter proves your yeast is still healthy, allows you to grow enough yeast to do the job, cuts down on lag time, and ensures that you will not get off flavors or stuck ferementations from stressed out yeast.

Also has to do with the actual pitch rates of the smack packs and tubes, and has to do with the data that Jamil Z has on his mr malty website.

I'll quote some of it, but really you should look at the stuff there;

http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

Ales & Lagers

The general consensus on pitching rates is that you want to pitch around 1 million cells of viable yeast, for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato. A little less for an ale, a little more for a lager. George Fix states about 1.5 million for a lager and 0.75 million for an ale in his book, An Analysis of Brewing Techniques. Other literature cites a slightly higher amount. I'm going with Fix's numbers and that is what the pitching calculator uses.
The Math

If you're curious, here is the simple math to calculate the number of cells needed. For an ale, you want to pitch around 0.75 million cells of viable yeast (0.75 million for an ale, 1.5 million for a lager), for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato.

(0.75 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato of the wort)

* There is about 3785 milliliters in a gallon. There are about 20,000 milliliters in 5.25 gallons.

* A degree Plato is about 1.004 of original gravity. Just divide the OG by 4 to get Plato (e.g., 1.048 is 12 degrees Plato).

So, for a 1.048 wort pitching into 5.25 gallons you need about 180 billion cells.

(750,000) X (20,000) X (12) = 180,000,000,000

As an easy to remember rough estimate, you need about 15 billion cells for each degree Plato or about 4 billion cells for each point of OG when pitching into a little over 5 gallons of wort. If you want a quick way of doing a back of the envelope estimate, that is really close to 0.75 billion cells for each point of gravity per gallon of wort. Double that to 1.5 billion for a lager.
Pitching From Tubes, Packs, or Dry Yeast

Both White Labs and Wyeast make fantastic products and you can't go wrong with either one. There are differences between their strains and each brand has pluses and minuses yet neither is better than the other across the board. Use the brand your local homebrew shop carries, if you need a way to decide.

A White Labs tube has between 70 and 120 billion cells of 100% viable yeast, depending on the yeast strain. Some cells are much larger than others and there are more or less per ml based on size. (The information on the White Labs web site stating 30 to 50 billion cells is out of date.) We can just assume there are around 100 billion very healthy yeast. You would need 2 tubes if you were pitching directly into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts.

A Wyeast Activator pack (the really big ones) and the pitchable tubes have an average of 100 billion cells of 100% viable yeast. The smaller packs are around 15-18 billion cells. You would need 2 of the large packs if you were pitching directly into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts. For the small packs, you'd need eleven of them!


But to make it easier he has a great pitch rate calculator http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

And according to his numbers on his calculator, really any beer above 1.020, you should be making a starter for.

Me personally when I use liquid yeast I just make a starter. I may not be as anal as some brewers and makes sure that I have the exact cellcount for whatever gravity beer I am making, but I do make one for the above reasons I mentioned, namely peace of mid, and a reduction in lag time.

Seriously, that's one way to insure you have clean tasting beer, not to stress out or underpitch your yeast.

The only reason NOT to make a starter is simple laziness....
 
Revy,
Again you rise to the challenge and surpass expectations in your knowledge of the brewing process!!!! Fine......I'll make a damn starter!!!!! My luck has been good so far with ferments, but I should not remain lazy......Merry Christmas to all and to all a good day!!
 
Aside from piece of mind, yeast will produce different flavors under different conditions and count/unit volume is a variable, too, just like DO and temperature and nutrients levels and SG, etc... Making a starter well typically involves using a spinner flask, ensuring adequate and continuous levels of DO and moderate levels of sugars - conditions ideal for healthy propagation (instead of fermentation.) The resulting healthy yeast will, in theory, produce fewer "off" flavors under fermentation conditions (assuming you are controlling for other variables.)

I used to think starters were not important...until I started using them. The difference in flavor has been striking. Recently, I read Yeast by Chris White and Jamil (a great read) and the reasons for treating yeast according to the "rules" are much clearer to me. This book makes yeast biology accessible to all and in addition includes a number of charts with empirical data from well controlled experiments that intuitively convey why certain home (or craft) brewer behaviors are desirable.

Of course, people have been making beer for thousands of years, so you can make good beer using your own processes, but to make consistently excellent and repeatable beer, using a starter is one of several practices that seems critical.
 
Sheesh, I'm in the middle of this very same decision tree.

I'm making the jump into 10 gallon batches and most of my brews are around 1.06. I'm also using dry yeast lately.

I've had people telling me not to make starters with dry yeast but nobody has hard and fast numbers as to why.

If I'm making 5 gallons of 1.06 beer with S-04 and I use a 2L starter of 1.04 og starter, what's happening? Is this overpitch bogeyman?

How can I calculate the cell count?

Wyeast's calculator says that 1.06 beer needs 6 million/ml, but that 1.061 needs double that rate. Is it ok to float around in between?

I've been searching the forum and I can't seem to find anything beyond opinions without citations.

Have you visited mrmalty.com?
 
Thanks for the help and the references to MrMalty. I'm sold on doing starters for liquid.

My main question is that I've been specifically warned off from doing starters with dry yeast. As I said, I'm using s-04. Is this just because of the cell count being too high? Is it true that over pitching the yeast will cause it to die a young death and that it won't clean up after itself?

Hooray for liquid starters, but what is the snag about dry starters and how much of it should I believe.
 
I started using starters a few batches ago, mainly because I was using rinsed yeast from previous batches, but on my last batch I didn't and I wouldn't say it was a stuck fermentation but it didn't finish as much as I would have liked.

Now, with dry yeast the consensus is DON'T make a starter? Is that because the cell count is already high enough? What about hydrating the dry stuff? Or do you just pitch as is?
 
Well let me see if I got this math correct.

750,000 cell rate
10 gallons = 37854 ml
1.064 beer = 16 plato

(750,000)*(37854)*(16)= 4.54*10^11 cells

One packet of 11.5 gram S-04 has 6*10^9 cells per gram. 11.5 grams makes it 6.9*10^10.
http://www.fermentis.com/fo/pdf/HB/EN/Safale_S-04_HB.pdf

Even if I used 2 packs, that only puts me at 1.38*10^11.

At this point, my math seems way off. The calculator has much different numbers than I do.

I'm apparently miscalculating the cell count of a dry yeast pack.
 
mrmalty accounts for dry yeast packets as well (both small and the 11.5 g packets) and you are correct about starters. You don't need a starter for a dried yeast. When I use dried yeast, I usually do a short rehydration in boiled and cooled distilled water. Some people will "proof" the yeast with a small amount of DME (Palmer's Learn to Brew has a section about this) but I have never tried it
 
winvarin, I really appreciate your input, but I need us to speak in numbers and citations rather than "usually I do" or "i've heard."

Fermentis says that 6.9*10^10 cells (69 billion) of yeast are in an 11.5 gram pack.
http://www.fermentis.com/fo/pdf/HB/EN/Safale_S-04_HB.pdf

A reverse working of the MrMalty calculator seems to suggest they believe a pack has 2*10^11 (200 billion). What gives?
 
Making a starter for liquid yeast is a must for me... this way I know the yeastee beastee's are still viable.

My last batch of beer was a Bavarian Dunkel and I made a huge starter following Mr. Malty... according to my beersmith notes, I made a 6L starter for it and the fermentation took off!! I had never seen a beer start fermenting so quickly.
 
This thread has been hijacked to only discussing dry starters, as it has been settled that liquid starters are the cat's meow.
 
done this 100 times. Never failed. DONE!

I too have pitched it dry into the wort and it made beer, I've made starters from dry yeast and it made beer, I've even brewed naked and I still made beer.

Knowing that it will probably work and know what will work best and why it works best are two different things.
 
naked brewing......I must try that......so since my question about making a starter has been answered, would you recommend buying a stir plate? Just shake it baby? your thoughts..........
 
I think the big reason for not making starters with dry yeast is cost/labor. A packet of dry yeast is usually $2-$3, while a vial of liquid yeast is ~$7-$8. You're probably going to use $3 worth of DME to grow your $2 packet of dried yeast, and you are only going to get, at most, 50% growth. So it's just more cost effective to buy another pack or two of Fermentis.
 
I too have pitched it dry into the wort and it made beer, I've made starters from dry yeast and it made beer, I've even brewed naked and I still made beer.

Knowing that it will probably work and know what will work best and why it works best are two different things.

Yeah, last batch I made was supposed to be OG 1.038, FG 1.007.
My results were OG 1.044, FG 1.019.

Ok, not that much of a difference. I just threw in one dry packet of S-04.
Seems like I could have had it ferment a bit more, maybe if I hydrated.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top