Starter After Yeast Rinsing

[Pancoastbrewing]

So I rinsed yeast from a recent brew with the hope of brewing within a week or so. It’s been about 3 or 4 weeks, so I assume I will need to do a yeast starter just to be safe (or am I wasting time?).

My question is, how much yeast should I use in the starter and how big of a starter should I make? I have about 3 mason jars with maybe 1/4” or so of yeast in them. I was planning on using the yeast in one of those jars for the starter. Is a standard 1L starter too small for what I assume is a lot of yeast? Should I do a 2L starter? Any answers will be appreciated! Thanks!

 

[Robert65]

Not directly answering your question, but: in the future, do not rinse yeast. Though recommended in a lot of old homebrew books, it is extremely detrimental to yeast and also promotes infection. If you are worried about separating trub, just do the starter; trub doesn't propagate. Better yet, don't worry about the trub at all and just directly repitch a little more slurry. Again, the trub is inert.

 

[brownni5]

Lots of variables here. For instance, we don't know what the yeast came out of, what it's going into, or how "rinsed" it might be (or how much trub might be left). About 3? Pint or quart? Measure or estimate it to the ml for most accurate results.

If you're really interested, you should use a yeast starter calc. They should have something to account for harvested yeast.

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

Not directly answering your question, but: in the future, do not rinse yeast. Though recommended in a lot of old homebrew books, it is extremely detrimental to yeast and also promotes infection. If you are worried about separating trub, just do the starter; trub doesn't propagate. Better yet, don't worry about the trub at all and just directly repitch a little more slurry. Again, the trub is inert.

I’ve not heard about rinsing being very detrimental. Not saying you’re wrong at all, I just do it to save some cash (my LHBS has a pitiful selection of liquid yeast and online ordering is expensive with shipping). Plus I won my one and only brew competition award with a once-washed yeast. I am usually pretty good with sanitation.

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

Lots of variables here. For instance, we don't know what the yeast came out of, what it's going into, or how "rinsed" it might be (or how much trub might be left). About 3? Pint or quart? Measure or estimate it to the ml for most accurate results.

If you're really interested, you should use a yeast starter calc. They should have something to account for harvested yeast.

The yeast came out of a 5 gallon, 1.052 pale Ale that was pitched with wyeast American Ale II after doing a 1.5L starter. The finished beer came out pretty well and as intended style-wise. I rinsed with 1 gal sterile water and ended up collecting into (3) 24 oz mason jars. As I said, I collected about 1/4” or so of yeast slurry (I dumped some because I only had 3 jars). They’ve been refrigerated for less than a month. I have approximately 150 ml of yeast

 

[brownni5]

Again, more assumptions, but I'd do a starter. My calculator says you should have just over 100 billion cells. Maybe that's enough?
Of course, I like doing starters.

 

[brownni5]

I’ve not heard about rinsing being very detrimental. Not saying you’re wrong at all, I just do it to save some cash (my LHBS has a pitiful selection of liquid yeast and online ordering is expensive with shipping). Plus I won my one and only brew competition award with a once-washed yeast. I am usually pretty good with sanitation.

Robert65 didn't say don't reuse, he just suggested you don't need to wash/rinse. I quit doing it myself, mostly out of laziness, not because I noticed a problem.

 

[Abhishek Dewan]

Not directly answering your question, but: in the future, do not rinse yeast. Though recommended in a lot of old homebrew books, it is extremely detrimental to yeast and also promotes infection. If you are worried about separating trub, just do the starter; trub doesn't propagate. Better yet, don't worry about the trub at all and just directly repitch a little more slurry. Again, the trub is inert.

Totally agree.

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

Robert65 didn't say don't reuse, he just suggested you don't need to wash/rinse. I quit doing it myself, mostly out of laziness, not because I noticed a problem.

He did kinda say not to reuse haha. It’s fine I’m always open to other ways of doing things. I’m just not sure what other means there are available to the home brewer who wants to reuse yeast. It’s not like I brew everyday and immediately can repitch. I would love nothing more than to start with a new pack every time and just do a starter but it gets expensive when your LHBS has a poor selection. Rinsing is a pain.

Anyway, what starter size would you select? I’m just unsure about making too small of a starter for how much yeast I have. Although if I have around 100 billion, I’m guessing I can do any size?

 

[Robert65]

He did kinda say not to reuse haha.

No, I didn't say not to reuse, just not to rinse. I reuse. I've repitched up to 25 generations. Could go longer.

What is important is good sanitation and not rinsing. Replacing the beer the yeast made with water raises the pH, removing important protection against infection. It also subjects yeast to damaging osmotic shock. Further, it introduces oxygen. This signals yeast to start its life cycle. It will consume the reserves it built up before dormancy, but finding no food to consume, may starve; and it will not have the needed reserves when it finally does get pitched into wort, and will be unprepared for a normal, healthy, and ordered fermentation. Culture yeast is dependent on a predictable cycle provided by us, the human brewers who've shaped it by selection. It expects to be oxygenated, fed wort, reproduce, build up reserves, and then rest waiting for the start of the next cycle to be signalled. It has lost the genes that allow for adaptability. On the other hand, wild yeast and bacteria retain the ability to quickly seize any opportunity at any time and jump to a different part of their metabolic cycle whenever there is available food. So disruption of the culture yeast's life cycle renders it unable to outcompete potential infecting organisms. All in all, rinsing presents various means to weaken yeast, and favor competing organisms. Over multiple generations the cumulative effects are increasingly devastating, but even in one fermentation cycle, there is no advantage and to rinsing and it will only lead to a weaker and less ordered fermentation.

Reuse yeast, definitely. Yeast generally take at least 3 generations to fully adapt from lab to actual brewery conditions and start performing at their best. Ensure good sanitation, store yeast under the beer it made, and directly repitch slurry without rinsing (rouse in a starter if necessary,) and you'll have better performance than starting with a new pack every time. If for some reason you do feel it is necessary to rinse to remove excessive trub, do it right at pitching time, when yeast needs oxygenation anyway. But I still feel it is just as effective to simply estimate a larger volume of slurry to make up for non yeast material mixed in.

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

No, I didn't say not to reuse, just not to rinse. I reuse. I've repitched up to 25 generations. Could go longer.

What is important is good sanitation and not rinsing. Replacing the beer the yeast made with water raises the pH, removing important protection against infection. It also subjects yeast to damaging osmotic shock. Further, it introduces oxygen. This signals yeast to start its life cycle. It will consume the reserves it built up before dormancy, but finding no food to consume, may starve; and it will not have the needed reserves when it finally does get pitched into wort, and will be unprepared for a normal, healthy, and ordered fermentation. Culture yeast is dependent on a predictable cycle provided by us, the human brewers who've shaped it by selection. It expects to be oxygenated, fed wort, reproduce, build up reserves, and then rest waiting for the start of the next cycle to be signalled. It has lost the genes that allow for adaptability. On the other hand, wild yeast and bacteria retain the ability to quickly seize any opportunity at any time and jump to a different part of their metabolic cycle whenever there is available food. So disruption of the culture yeast's life cycle renders it unable to outcompete potential infecting organisms. All in all, rinsing presents various means to weaken yeast, and favor competing organisms. Over multiple generations the cumulative effects are increasingly devastating, but even in one fermentation cycle, there is no advantage and to rinsing and it will only lead to a weaker and less ordered fermentation.

Reuse yeast, definitely. Yeast generally take at least 3 generations to fully adapt from lab to actual brewery conditions and start performing at their best. Ensure good sanitation, store yeast under the beer it made, and directly repitch slurry without rinsing (rouse in a starter if necessary,) and you'll have better performance than starting with a new pack every time. If for some reason you do feel it is necessary to rinse to remove excessive trub, do it right at pitching time, when yeast needs oxygenation anyway. But I still feel it is just as effective to simply estimate a larger volume of slurry to make up for non yeast material mixed in.

So essentially, I should rack off to a keg and leave enough beer behind to cover the yeast cake, keep chilled, then do a starter (which I assume would have to be a big starter), or just rinse/pitch that whole thing into the next brew?

Is that any different from just pitching directly onto an existing yeast cake? I thought that was a big no no?

 

[Robert65]

I leave enough beer in the fermenter to swirl up the slurry, and then transfer it to a sanitized jar or flask for storage. If you let it settle in the fermenter for a minute or two, you can leave a lot of trub behind. Then keep the slurry under the beer, loosely covered, and pitch as much of that as needed next time. I wouldn't even make a starter from it unless it had sat for a long time (what counts as a long time is will vary with the yeast.) As a general guideline for pitching rates, pitch about half the collected slurry for cold pitched lagers, a quarter for ales. If you're making a very high gravity beer or the slurry is old, you can pitch a little more.

 

[IslandLizard]

I leave enough beer in the fermenter to swirl up the slurry, and then transfer it to a sanitized jar or flask for storage. If you let it settle in the fermenter for a minute or two, you can leave a lot of trub behind. Then keep the slurry under the beer, loosely covered, and pitch as much of that as needed next time. I wouldn't even make a starter from it unless it had sat for a long time (what counts as a long time is will vary with the yeast.) As a general guideline for pitching rates, pitch about half the collected slurry for cold pitched lagers, a quarter for ales. If you're making a very high gravity beer or the slurry is old, you can pitch a little more.

That! ^

When using older slurries, or when in doubt about her vitality, you can always make a "vitality starter" on brew day. Well before you start brewing, remove slurry from fridge, decant, let warm up to room temps (or place in some lukewarm water), add starter wort (or some boiled and chilled batch wort @1.040 gravity). Let spin for 4 hours and pitch that into your well oxygenated batch of wort. I've had lift off in as little as 3 hours doing that.

Use a yeast calculator to estimate your cell count and how much to pitch:
BrewUnited's Yeast Calculator
Mr. Malty (especially the "pitch from slurry" tab)

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

Thanks everyone for the info. I made a 1.5L starter and put about 100ish ml of yeast into it. Looked very active this morning

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

Just a quick update. Did the 1.5L starter, let it settle out, refrigerated for a day, decanted yesterday before brewing and pitched into 5 gal 1.050 wort. Had bubbling within 3 hours and this morning (14 hours after pitching) had a solid 1" krausen and tons of blowoff activity. Definitely an active fermentation!