StarSan paradox

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HomerJR

HomerJR

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Hey geniuses,

I'm trying to wrap my head around a very peculiar notion, the one that says StarSan kills bacteria on contact, but is actually a very tasty treat for yeasts to eat.

I'm not doubting it, as there are many stranger things in the universe, but I'm the kinda guy who likes to understand the things that happen around him.

So what's up with this? Can someone explain it? PLEASE???
 
HomerJR said:
Hey geniuses,

I'm trying to wrap my head around a very peculiar notion, the one that says StarSan kills bacteria on contact, but is actually a very tasty treat for yeasts to eat.

I'm not doubting it, as there are many stranger things in the universe, but I'm the kinda guy who likes to understand the things that happen around him.

So what's up with this? Can someone explain it? PLEASE???
Click to expand...

It's an acid sanitizer that kills with a low PH. When you add a large volume of liquid the Starsan gets diluted and breaks down.
 
The bacteria don't like the acidity. The yeast are OK with it to a point. The pH of beer is typ around 4, too low for most bacteria but OK for the yeasties. The pH of a proper Starsan solution is even lower than 4 (I want to say it's in the 2's but I'm not 100% sure on that, that info is available though).
 
So do we have verification that Starsan actually does turn into yeast food? I get that it kills bacteria but not yeast, but what about the second half of the OP's question? People seem to say that a lot, but I'm wondering if it's really true ... any biology types want to weigh in here?
 
Palefire said:
So do we have verification that Starsan actually does turn into yeast food? I get that it kills bacteria but not yeast, but what about the second half of the OP's question? People seem to say that a lot, but I'm wondering if it's really true ... any biology types want to weigh in here?
Click to expand...

Yeah, come on, people! We need to know whether yeast enjoy eating dodecylbenzenesulfonic and phosphoric acids (in proper concentrations of course)!!!!
 
If you dump yeast into a StarSan solution the yeast will die an acidic death but, when mixed with a large volume of wort (say 5 gallons) at a pH of ~5 (remember it ain't beer yet) it become a source of a phosphoric energy drink.
 
Yes, it turns into yeast food, and yes it is good for septic systems, and yes you shouldn't fear the foam.

Rather than speculate or operate from ignorance and fear, why don't you just go straight to the horses mouse.


March 29, 2007 - Sanitizing with Bleach and Star San
Charlie Talley from Five Star Chemicals tells us best practices in using household bleach and Star San in sanitizing equipment.

http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr03-29-07.mp3
Click to expand...

There also happens to be a sticky from Wortmonger who used to work for 5-star summarizing all the info on it as well,
 
Revvy said:
Rather than speculate or operate from ignorance and fear, why don't you just go straight to the horses mouse.
Click to expand...

Since when have horses had mice?
And what makes you think that these horses mice are actually all that sanitary? Ive heard bad things about rodents and some of the diseases they carry, but the fact that they belong to a horse, does this make them that much more sanitary?
 
Charlie, from 5-Star Chemicals explained this in a podcast (check out either http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com or http://www.basicbrewingradio.com.

Essentially, when added to Wort, or Beer, the PH of the starsan changes, and it stops being deadly to bacteria, and becomes something that they can metabolise. I cannot say off the top of my head what that number is.

You may also want to check out the 5-Star Chemical website: (never mind. I looked it up and it seems the website is changed. nothing to see there...)
 
yeast is a fungus not a bacteria. StarSan only works when it's PH is below 3. when you add the wart to the StarSan its PH goes up above the "active" level stopping its sanitizing ability.
 
JoeMama said:
Since when have horses had mice?
And what makes you think that these horses mice are actually all that sanitary? Ive heard bad things about rodents and some of the diseases they carry, but the fact that they belong to a horse, does this make them that much more sanitary?
Click to expand...

I think I have become a typing dyslexic.....I don't freakin know where the disconnect between my brain and my typing has been disconnected lately. But it's been happening a lot.

Or maybe it's a;

freudian_slip.jpg


;)
 
Alright, that makes sense. Yeast consume phosphorus, and since the pH of the StarSan solution has been diluted to essentially that of the boiled wort, it's safe for the li'l guys to eat.

Thanks to Homercidal and Revvy. Revvy, there was never any fear, and only a small amount of ignorance, which has since been corrected.
 
I use StarSan. I don't fear the foam. But asking the guy who makes and sells the product does not seem like the scientific way to answer this question. Like asking the ShamWow guy if it really holds 12 times its weight in liquid....OF COURSE IT DOES!
 
freddyb said:
I use StarSan. I don't fear the foam. But asking the guy who makes and sells the product does not seem like the scientific way to answer this question. Like asking the ShamWow guy if it really holds 12 times its weight in liquid....OF COURSE IT DOES!
Click to expand...

Really, so the fact that Charlie Talley is a chemist who actually developed starsan and several other chemicals in his several decades in the industrial chemical and cleaning industry means he's no better than a paid hack actor shilling crappy products on television?

A chemist is not "scientific" enough for you?????????

Did you even listen to the podcast?

So what the guy has to walk on water of something for you to believe him????

:rolleyes:
 
freddyb said:
I use StarSan. I don't fear the foam. But asking the guy who makes and sells the product does not seem like the scientific way to answer this question. Like asking the ShamWow guy if it really holds 12 times its weight in liquid....OF COURSE IT DOES!
Click to expand...

And yet, in the podcast, he devotes more time to explaining the use of commonly available products than he does his own?

Ohhhhh, I see. Diversion is his sales tactic then.

Or, could it be that he's a straight forward guy conveying facts about chemical properties. IIRC, Five Star doesn't sell to the public and HB use is a very new market for them.
 
I listened to the brewing network podcast maybe 6 months ago or so. My recollection was that Talley said when starsan eventually breaks down (actually, the phosphorous-rich soap part of the formula), those by-products in turn become yeast food. It's been a while, but that was the gist I took away from it at least.
 
Revvy said:
Really, so the fact that Charlie Talley is a chemist who actually developed starsan and several other chemicals in his several decades in the industrial chemical and cleaning industry means he's no better than a paid hack actor shilling crappy products on television?

A chemist is not "scientific" enough for you?????????

Did you even listen to the podcast?

So what the guy has to walk on water of something for you to believe him????

:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Don't get your panties in a bunch.:mug: I absolutely believe him or I would not use the product. I don't doubt his expertise or his motivation. Just saying that for those who doubt, or would like to find our more about the products that touch their beer, asking the guy who stands to gain the most from promoting the product is not the thread-ending conclusive proof that would put a mind at ease.

Skepticism in moderation is one of the most useful tools in all of science.
 
Revvy said:
So what the guy has to walk on water of something for you to believe him????
Click to expand...

Well, if he walked on wort (or even beer) and cooked, Id almost consider turning gay... (Almost that is)
 
freddyb said:
Don't get your panties in a bunch.:mug: I absolutely believe him or I would not use the product. I don't doubt his expertise or his motivation. Just saying that for those who doubt, or would like to find our more about the products that touch their beer, asking the guy who stands to gain the most from promoting the product is not the thread-ending conclusive proof that would put a mind at ease.

Skepticism in moderation is one of the most useful tools in all of science.
Click to expand...

actually he touts a mix bleach water and vinegar (when done correctly) is a very effective no rinse sanitizer . I think he spent more time on that then his own product.
 
Revvy said:
Really, so the fact that Charlie Talley is a chemist who actually developed starsan and several other chemicals in his several decades in the industrial chemical and cleaning industry means he's no better than a paid hack actor shilling crappy products on television?

A chemist is not "scientific" enough for you?????????

Did you even listen to the podcast?

So what the guy has to walk on water of something for you to believe him????

:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I like Star San and PBW just fine, but Star San's marketing material for 5.2 is flat out misleading.
 
remilard said:
I like Star San and PBW just fine, but Star San's marketing material for 5.2 is flat out misleading.
Click to expand...

That would be Five Star's marketing material but, yes, not as effective as they'd like us to believe based on tested application result. It is still effective but, just not as specifically as they market it as being.
 
Palefire said:
So do we have verification that Starsan actually does turn into yeast food? I get that it kills bacteria but not yeast, but what about the second half of the OP's question? People seem to say that a lot, but I'm wondering if it's really true ... any biology types want to weigh in here?
Click to expand...

Yes. Listen to the podcast with Charles Tally, inventory of Star-San. He explains how it breaks down into phosphate, which yeast will consume as a source of phosphorus.

The podcast is like 90 mins long though.
 
springer said:
actually he touts a mix bleach water and vinegar (when done correctly) is a very effective no rinse sanitizer . I think he spent more time on that then his own product.
Click to expand...

Wonder why more folks haven't gone that route instead of buying starsan?

I think the foam hypnotises people.
 
malkore said:
Yes. Listen to the podcast with Charles Tally, inventory of Star-San. He explains how it breaks down into phosphate, which yeast will consume as a source of phosphorus.

The podcast is like 90 mins long though.
Click to expand...

Yes, it turns into yeast food, and yes it is good for septic systems, and yes you shouldn't fear the foam.

Rather than speculate or operate from ignorance and fear, why don't you just go straight to the horses mouse.

Quote:
March 29, 2007 - Sanitizing with Bleach and Star San
Charlie Talley from Five Star Chemicals tells us best practices in using household bleach and Star San in sanitizing equipment.

http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr03-29-07.mp3
Click to expand...


Cool, thanks guys. I'm a believer!
 
HSM said:
Wonder why more folks haven't gone that route instead of buying starsan?

I think the foam hypnotises people.
Click to expand...

Well as much as it is good to use in a pinch like in the OP's situation, if he had had bleach, or to firebomb if an infection is present, the problem with using bleach on a regular basis, while at the same time using municipal water, certain minerals in whatever water you use and certain plastics, is that you could build up chloramines in your brewing systems, which could contirbute to off flavors in your beer.

In some situations they work cumulatively by having little bits of chlorine in different parts of the brewing process that your beer may come in contact with, and it builds up and bammo plastic band aid flavor.

It's best to avoid chlorine as much as possible, and in the case of sanitizing ONLY in the most dire situations, like where you know for sure you have an infection.....we call it slash and burning.

I try to limit the amount of contact my gear comes to chlorine and chlorine products.

Chloramines are funny that way, some folks aren't affected, and in other situations the right combination causes it.

So it's best to reduce contact, especially with plastic gear, as much as possible.
 
Revvy said:
Rather than speculate or operate from ignorance and fear, why don't you just go straight to the horses mouse.

There also happens to be a sticky from Wortmonger who used to work for 5-star summarizing all the info on it as well,
Click to expand...

Revy,

I think it may be time to up your dose of Ginko Biloba and B complex vitamins ;)

I used to work with Charlie at Five Star, not Wortmonger.

:mug:
 
Ive been wondering about this myself, i tend to get the "bubble/foam" effect from using starsan ... was wondering if that if i didnt get it all out if it would effect my brew. But from what im reading here, it sounds like if in small amounts it actually gets nutralised by the yeast. Am I reading this correctly?
 
FireNightFly said:
Ive been wondering about this myself, i tend to get the "bubble/foam" effect from using starsan ... was wondering if that if i didnt get it all out if it would effect my brew. But from what im reading here, it sounds like if in small amounts it actually gets nutralised by the yeast. Am I reading this correctly?
Click to expand...
RE: the foam, there are ways to deal with the foam (or just not fear it). I try to do what I can to not get the foam in the first place or just fill the carboy the night before and let it settle, no foam.
 
FireNightFly said:
Ive been wondering about this myself, i tend to get the "bubble/foam" effect from using starsan ... was wondering if that if i didnt get it all out if it would effect my brew. But from what im reading here, it sounds like if in small amounts it actually gets nutralised by the yeast. Am I reading this correctly?
Click to expand...

Replace "neutralized" with "metabolized".
 

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