Stainless Conical Fermenter from Bitter Creek Homebrew: Review ala Boerderij Kabouter

[drez77]

Concerning dry hopping: This lid is very easy to get on and off. If you are worried about contamination within the 4 seconds it takes to dump in some hops, then you could just crack the lid up half an inch and scoot them in there, then this lid would pose less open space than a cornie lid Neither is a worry unless you ferment in a bio ridden and infested bacteria lab.

I still like the cornie lid but that may also be because I am accustomed to using it for additions and what not. If you have not used one it may not be an issue.

I am also not sure how lifting the lid to put in a hop bag of hops will open less space than a cornie lid.

For me it would come down to price. The one feature that I like the most is the ability to close it up and throw a spudding valve on there and carbonate in the vessel.

How is the comparison going to work? Will you brew 2 batches and ferment both in different conical. I have skimmed this thread mainly looking at pictures so if I missed it I apologize.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Yeah, the other very cool option would be the ability to do pressurized fermentation in a conical for truly professional brewing control. That's some pretty sweet stuff! :rockin:

I am hoping to find a Blichmann fermentator and then brew two batches side by side. I haven't found a donor yet, but I have about 2 weeks till I brew my second batch that would go in the Blichmann.

 

[KevinP]

I agree no pissing but come on, nobody is making "snarky" comments and nothing has been said or implied regarding the quality being "crap." Rich has been hinting at comparable pricing to the Blichmanns and you say "lower" than. As HellenicHomeBrewer said the jury is waiting on a price. FWIW I spent a couple of years working for a company that sourced parts from China so I know first hand how much work Rich is putting into this. It can be very much like beating your head into a brick wall. I applaud the effort Rich has made on these as they are indeed quite beautiful looking! A person could dominate the stainless conical market bringing these in at low enough prices. I myself am eagerly waiting for official pricing. Pricing? Pricing? Pricing? Pricing?

Concerning buy US: It is true that these conicals are made in China, but you are still supporting Rich. I know some people are crazy about the buy American thing, but I for one would rather support a small shop owner who is trying to offer great and progressive products that are of better quality at a lower price. Blichmann is great and I owe several of their products, but just because they are a US company does not mean I will be loyal to them over Rich. I think he is working very hard to give us some great new products and options and deserves more than, 'yeh, its not made in (or assembled in the US, so his stuff is crap.' This conical is better produced IMO than the Blichmann with better features and will be at the same or lower price (I believe). If you want a US made fermenter of this quality at the same price, go make one yourself and start marketing it.

I don't want to start a pissing contest or get this moved to the debate forum. If you feel a need to buy only US made products go right ahead. Making snarky comments here doesn't do anyone any good.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I agree with your sentiments. Concerning pricing, Rich told me that he won't know the pricing until he is happy with the design and actually orders the first container of fermenters from China. I don't know anything about dealing with Chinese suppliers, but I do understand why there are no prices yet. Please be patient, I am sure Rich has everything put together.

For now, please just enjoy the pr0n, and we will get the skinny on the price later.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Hello everybody!

SuperiorBrew, a.k.a. Rich, the owner of Bitter Creek Homebrew Supply in Slinger Wisconsin is working toward bringing in high quality stainless conical fermenters from China. He started this thread at the beginning of the project.

He has graciously allowed me to be a guinea pig and use the fermenter for my next few batches to work out any kinks that may remain in the design. Rich has spent countless hours dealing with the supplier making sure that the quality is up to our standards and that every feature we could want is included in the fermenter.

Here is a list of features on this conical:

1. 16 gallon capacity (I have not measured yet, but that test is coming soon)
2. All stainless and polished
3. Welded legs
4. rotating racking arm
5. full 1" bottom dump
6. pressurizable up to 35 psi (you could carb in it if you cared to)
7. many more features that will be more apparent as this test progresses.

For now, I took a bunch of pictures and have tried to review the workmanship. In the coming days, I will fill the fermenter to test total capacity, pressure test it, and play with the dumps and venting options.

........


Without further ado...

Here is the beauty!

It has a taller slimmer profile than the Blichmann alternative. Here are the dimensions:
16 gal rated capacity
45" high w/o airlock
16" diameter
18" widest part of the clamp (upper right in my pic), can be turned any direction to fit into corner area

I really like the look of the legs. They are welded on, take no additional floor space, and look professional.

As you can see here, the shape allows it to fit very nicely in a fermentation chamber and allows a more efficient usage of available space. I tested it and I can fit the conical and two fermenters on the floor space.

..........

Onto the details.

I recall a couple of years ago when these fermenters first came up on this forum that the quality was very high as these newer pictures still show but better.
The 7 gallon I recall held something like 8 1/2 or 9 gallons, more than the listed volume.
The larger 16 gallon might also hold more than the listed 16 gallons also, this would be good to know after a real water test was done.
I must add as back then I asked about having a larger capacity fermenter and was told they can make any size requested. With this I was happy as i'm wanting a fermenter that will after all the yeast, trub, spillage and what can not be racked off and still be able to have a net of three fully filled 5 gallon corny's for a net of 15 gallons for my efforts. Not 13 1/2 or 14 gallons net. If this net volume with brewing stouts which will have a larger volume of trub and yeast to dump out. That was my request to meet the the net volume from these larger fermenters. The shipping time as well the final price was also a factor asked by many members. After hearing about issues with importing and delays this fermenter went dead app two years ago until coming alive again now. Maybe with the past history behind us and China importing so many other items now these fermenter will come thru like all the other imported items. I wish you the best of luck this second go around as they blow away the Blichmann's is my opinion. Last time I mentioned that I got some replies for making this same statement, I know i'll get them again.

Back the first time a couple years ago I had a question and the answer to this reply was they can make them taller if requested and that it wasn't a problem. This had me happy and waiting as I never got the real volume measurements of the 16 gallon as it might be larger than 16 gallons like the 7 gallon fermenter holding 8 1/2 to 9 gallon instead of 7. I recall the importer was asking should he have those frementers cut down to 7 gallon in size. These volumes are off memory but I know they were more than the 7 gallon fermenter. JMO's here not to start any flame wars agains Blichmann and their faithful owners.
The only thing that worries me is the seal if it can be replaced quickly or any other material made in the USA that can be cut and butt welded with a hot wire.
I have done this with 3/8" round belts and trimmed the flashing after having a hot melted smash together. Again JMO's here.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I don't think I have anything going on tonight so I might be able to do the water test. I can't image the gasket being difficult to replace. McMaster has all sorts of silicone gaskets. This one is 1/4" square.

 

[SuperiorBrew]

IIRC it held 16g filled right to the brim and 2 more gallons in the domed lid.

 

[Hugh_Jass]

When racking from the conical to a corney, is it possible to never expose the beer to an uncontrolled environment?
I'm thinking
sanitize keg and purge with co2
pressurize conical
attach hose to valve on conical and attach other end to product side of keg
open pressure valve on keg and open valve on conical.

Am I missing something?

 

[kal]

Not to beat the China vs US made debate even more but Blichmann doesn't use 100% US sourced parts either. I asked John when I imported three of his 20 gallon Boilermaker pots to Canada for duty/tax disclosures reasons and he told me that "the pots are about 60-70% US content."

Nice looking fermenter though guys. Very nice looking. Those welds are fantastic!
Keep us informed.

Kal

 

[slimer]

Looks like a rocket ship.

 

[RonRock]

Looks like it would be easy to build a section that clamps onto the fermenter to add volume. Seems like a possible option.

 

[Clayton]

When racking from the conical to a corney, is it possible to never expose the beer to an uncontrolled environment?
I'm thinking
sanitize keg and purge with co2
pressurize conical
attach hose to valve on conical and attach other end to product side of keg
open pressure valve on keg and open valve on conical.

Am I missing something?

i do that now with carboys in to kegs.
i use a medical vacume pump and hook it to the IN on the keg and then hook OUT to my racking cane with a carboy cap
it works so damn good and is fast.

 

[springer]

When racking from the conical to a corney, is it possible to never expose the beer to an uncontrolled environment?
I'm thinking
sanitize keg and purge with co2
pressurize conical
attach hose to valve on conical and attach other end to product side of keg
open pressure valve on keg and open valve on conical.

Am I missing something?

yes it can be done if the conical can take pressure. I am sure even the cheap ones can made to accept enough pressure to transfer the beer however I don't think I would want to try carbing in one that isn't capable of handling 30 psi

 

[ChshreCat]

Think you could've taken the pictures without drooling on 'em?

 

[thantos]

Hi all,
First let me start off with saying that this reply is in NO way a "Flame" or meant to be "Snarky" or any other form of negativity. I just think that there are few things that should be pointed out as concerns where SS fermenters are concerned and a few things that caught my eye on these.

Everyone always get excited when they see the Stainless Steel (Myself included) but what I never see or hear anyone ask is what type is it? There are allot of different types of SS, some of them are good for the purpose of beer making and fermenting and some are not. I would be asking what type of SS is this made from and is there a mill certification available. The most common types of SS for food grade use are 304L & 316L and just to clarify there many different types of 304 & 316 SS out there. 304, 304L, 304LI, 304LS are just a few examples.

304 stainless is a low carbon (0.08% max) version of basic 18-8 also known as 302.

Type 304L has a carbon content of 0.03% or less. This alloy can be used in the as-welded condition without becoming susceptible to intergranular corrosion.

The reason this is important is that any time there is welding and polishing done on SS it changes the molecular make up of the metal and basically with out getting into a long boring topic, it brings the carbons to the surface of the welds heat affected zone and that is what causes your SS to rust or Rouge. In the pictures I can see light surface rust/rouge already starting to form as well there being lack of fusion/penetration (LF) (LP) in the welds from the polishing that has been done.
The next concern I have is I noticed allot of talk about the pressure rating of 35 PSI. Is this a Pressure rated vessel with an ASME cert saying it has been tested and can withstand that pressure with a +- safety factor? With the way the welds look I would be very careful about putting these under pressure with out something saying (on paper) they can handle the stated pressure. 35psi might not sound like much but if that fermenter ruptured @ 35psi it would be very bad maybe even life threatening. Just about everything we brew with is ASME rated (Corny kegs, beer kegs Co2, N2, Propane tanks/cylinders even beer bottles and cans) Like I said earlier not trying to bash anyone or thing just pointing out what I see and am concerned about. It is overall A very nice looking unit and I am not familiar with the other unit so its not a comparison. I would just hate to have someone spend allot of cash without asking a few questions and end up regretting it. Sorry if this was long winded !

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Good points to bring up thantos.

The conical is stainless 304. Food grade and I cannot see any surface rust or rouge. Maybe I don't know what I am looking for with stainless, but I have studied metallurgy and worked in the field with hard facing alloys and there is no rust on the unit now. After a few batches I cannot speak to, but it is clean at the start...

I pressurized it up to 30 psi and everything was tight and easy. I don't have any paper cert. but maybe Rich can chime in???

BTW-

I have this thing full of beer now. I don't know what to take pics of yet, but if you have any questions about the brewing process with this, let me know.

It was easy to fill and taking samples is awesome! It is soooooo easy to just feel bored and go check the gravity. Nice!

I will be dumping trub for the first time in a few days and will take pics of that... ask questions or for pics if you can think of anything for me to document.

 

[Darwin18]

This would definitely qualify as a nice toy...when do you think these will be made available?

 

[thantos]

Good points to bring up thantos.

The conical is stainless 304. Food grade and I cannot see any surface rust or rouge. Maybe I don't know what I am looking for with stainless, but I have studied metallurgy and worked in the field with hard facing alloys and there is no rust on the unit now. After a few batches I cannot speak to, but it is clean at the start...

I pressurized it up to 30 psi and everything was tight and easy. I don't have any paper cert. but maybe Rich can chime in???

BTW-

I have this thing full of beer now. I don't know what to take pics of yet, but if you have any questions about the brewing process with this, let me know.

It was easy to fill and taking samples is awesome! It is soooooo easy to just feel bored and go check the gravity. Nice!

I will be dumping trub for the first time in a few days and will take pics of that... ask questions or for pics if you can think of anything for me to document.

I have attached a couple marked up pics that show examples. Thanks for the kind words I figured I would get flamed for sure!

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

For some reason I can't see you links, they say they go to nowhere???

No reason you should be flamed. Your comments add to the review and are good things to know.

What are the possible problems that could arise from the defects you see?

 

[thantos]

Justin,
I fixed the picture, so just look above for my comments. I will try to give you the quickie explanation of SS and Rouging and what it leads too.

Rouging is a thin film, usually reddish-brown or golden in color, of iron oxide or hydroxide, typically on stainless steels. The contrast between this film and shiny metal accentuates this aesthetics problem. The rouge film typically wipes off easily with a light cloth but it reforms while the process fluid is in contact with the stainless steel. This problem is most chronic in the pharmaceutical industry, large scale breweries on the interior surfaces of high purity water (i.e., water for injection, WFI, RO, and DI) distillation units, storage tanks, distribution systems (piping, valves, pump housings, fittings, etc.) and process vessels and fermenters.

As stated, rouge is ferric oxide (i.e., rust), but the film may contain not only iron but also chromium and nickel compounds in various forms, and hence the film may vary in color and tenacity. Rouging is experienced more on Type 304/304L stainless steel than on Type 316/316L, and less on electropolished surfaces than mechanically polished surfaces. Particles of rust can become dislodged and be dispersed throughout a piping distribution system, often collecting on in-line filters.

The passive layer on the surface of stainless steels can breakdown by the interaction with the liquid process, which is devoid of ionic species, leading to rouging, or rust blooms. The ionic pull of the water is strong enough to strip the protective chromium oxide off the steel surface.

Another process, which is more damaging, is the creation and propagation of pits. Non-metallic inclusions, such as sulfides, oxides, etc., are an inherent result of alloy production. They are dispersed throughout the metal and are highly susceptible to attack by aggressive environments. Typically these inclusions are dissolved in a particular solution or environment and leave a micro-void behind. This void becomes an occluded cell where solution chemistry can be different from the bulk solution. The corrosion products within the now formed pit spill out onto the bulk metal surface producing localized rouging or rust blooms.

Sorry for the long boring post, I work in the pharmaceutical industry and SS, rouging, piping and fermenters are my area of expertise I guess you could say. I do realize that there is a big difference between the two areas but at the same time there really isn't if you know what I mean. Anyway hope this helps.
Gene

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

So is there a way to "season" the stainless to re-passivate the surface? Or is it a chemical change from the welding and the surface is no longer the same stainless?

Would wiping it clean between uses keep the rouge at bay? I will be cleaning this with PBW, and sanitizing with an acid rinse (Star-san) between uses, if that will help?

 

[thantos]

So is there a way to "season" the stainless to re-passivate the surface? Or is it a chemical change from the welding and the surface is no longer the same stainless?

The change is not so much a chemical as it is a molecular one. The heating and fusing/welding of SS is really what breaks down the natural passivization of SS. It is through a chemical passivization or electropolishing that it can be restored.

Here are some good articles on the subject. But it is like all things there are many views on what is needed and correct for certain applications. You will see that even some of these articles contradict each other. I have to warn you now its pretty long and boring stuff ! ! ! LOL..... You have been warned.

How To Passivate Stainless Steel Parts: MMSOnline.com

Passivating and Electropolishing Stainless Steel Parts

12045. Passivation of 304L Stainless Steel Welds

Keeping stainless steels stainless: How important is passivation for SS?

Would wiping it clean between uses keep the rouge at bay? I will be cleaning this with PBW, and sanitizing with an acid rinse (Star-san) between uses, if that will help?

Yes and no, the bad news is that once Rouging starts it will darn near never go away, unless treated with a very aggressive Chemical Passivation or Electropolishing. These are the two best methodes of removing the rouge film from a SS surface. The most two common reason for rouging to begin is;
1). From the Heat Affected Zone of the weld never having a passivization done after the welding process is complete.
2). The use of carbon tools for machining (mills & lathes using normal carbon bits), cutting (hack saws, band saws, jig saws, hole saws, all use carbon blades) and polishing (sand paper and abrasives are very high in carbon). Everything tool that touches the SS leaves a signature trace of carbon behind which is where it starts.

There are specialized tools for working with SS that have No or Minimal carbon in them but they are very expensive and really drive up the cost of SS fabrication.

Hope all this helps.

Gene

 

[samc]

thantos - interesting info. The real question is based upon what you say, would you buy this conical?

 

[thantos]

First things first..... I would need to know the cost of these. That would be a major factor ! ! ! Because to be honest I could probably build one in my shop for just the cost of materials.

Then....

My immediate answer is as a HOME BREWER no. I actually have a SS fermenter I am trying to sell because I never use it. Nothing against SS fermenters I just have found I prefer my 8 gallon glass carboys.

Now if I were to be doing this on a larger scale or going to open my own Micro brew Pub (like I had intended at one time, but got beat to the punch) Yes I would. I think I would address the quality issues with the welding before I purchased though.

Gene

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I will take some pictures after I transfer to kegs and clean the fermenter. Maybe that will give us a better idea of these rouge spots.

Anyway, is there anything anyone would like to see, or perhaps a more detailed review of any particular part or process?

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I just used the bottom dump last week and have pictures but not yet uploaded. I will get them up as soon as I can.

It works awesome. This thing is sooo awesome to use!!!! I need one. Anyway, the dump went great, I had a ton of compacted yeast and trub and it flowed out very easily. I didn't buy any extra fittings and just used the 5/8" nipple that was already installed but it worked great. Easy to dump and easy to take a clean sample with the rotating racking arm.

I will be buying some more kegs in the coming week or two, and then I should be able to transfer out of the conical and see how the cleaning goes. At that point I think this review will be done.

If anyone has any questions, please ask away.

So far, I would purchase this conical over a Blichmann if they were the same price. The larger capacity, ability to pressurize, and general construction seem better to me and tilt the scales IMO.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Ready to dump some yeast:

The process way very easy. The thick trub flowed nice and slow, it was easy to see when the trub ended and the lighter colored yeast started flowing, and again it was easy to see when the yeast cleared out and the beer was flowing.

What an awesome process and it took all of 6 minutes! I am in love with this thing.

 

[RonRock]

Are they available yet?

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I think Rich is waiting to here the full results and feedback to this review. I think he has all the details hashed out with the manufacturer and just needs to make the business decision to go forward or not.

The only feature I would want added would be a thermowell so I wouldn't have to add a weldless one.

This thing is the cat's meow.

 

[mmb]

Sounds like I need to start saving up my pennies.