[SPOILERS] Star Wars - The Force Awakens / Rogue One

[Homercidal]

27ages of discussion so I hope this hasn't been mentioned.

Has the idea of Rey being a force baby been discussed? Ala Anakin immaculate conception via midichlorians. I just don't want to think JJ went with Luke being her father, I guess the force-baby route feels contrived as well but I don't think Luke or Anakin were ever actually the "chosen ones" who brought balance to the force. If the Jedi truly believe in the concept of "balance" there needs to be the rule of 2 sith and then the Jedi to balance.

When Anakin flipped and killed all of the Jedi, the force swung dramatically towards the Sith. When Luke converted Anakin back to the side of light and Anakin killed Palpatine. The balance of the force swung back dramatically and left a hole in the dark side for Snoke and the Knights of Ren to fill.

I want to think that Rey and Finn will end up representing two sides of the same "neutral" coin and bring true balance to the force.

One could argue that Annakin brought "balance" to the force. When he is very young there are lots of Jedi, but only 2 sith (as is normal).

After Palpatine and Annakin slaughter the Jedi, there are really only 2 jedi left, and they go into hiding.

Of course, this allows the Empire to grow, but technically the Empire isn't part of the force.

 

[TallDan]

One could argue that Annakin brought "balance" to the force. When he is very young there are lots of Jedi, but only 2 sith (as is normal).

That's exactly what he did, and it's amazing to me that supposedly wise jedi didn't understand that prophecy. Let's see, we have an entire council of jedi, apparently dozens in training and we haven't seen any sign of sith in years... Sounds unbalanced. Do we really want balance? That either means a sudden explosion of sith surfacing, or what happened, a lot of jedi being wiped out.

 

[Homercidal]

That's exactly what he did, and it's amazing to me that supposedly wise jedi didn't understand that prophecy. Let's see, we have an entire council of jedi, apparently dozens in training and we haven't seen any sign of sith in years... Sounds unbalanced. Do we really want balance? That either means a sudden explosion of sith surfacing, or what happened, a lot of jedi being wiped out.

The Jedi council in interesting simply because of it's existence. Consider that a person strong in the force, who chooses to follow the path of the Dark Side, will be relatively easy to deal with if necessary, but most likely it will remain a minor, local problem.

But instead, a group is formed to find and train people with a reasonable proclivity to use the Force. So, as a result a great number of these people are trained in the use of the Force and with training their abilities grow so that they are powerful enough to be a true problem for the Jedi themselves.

The Jedi are already aware that the Dark Side is attractive to the inexperienced and impatient. It's easier to use and appears stronger. It's inevitable that some of the people they train are going to fall to the Dark Side. So it's almost as if they are setting up their own demise simply by existing.

 

[TallDan]

Well, let's also look at it this way:

We have some very obvious connotations of the dark side being evil and the light side being good, but is it that obvious for someone in the star wars universe? Clearly to a lot of people in the galaxy the empire, while maybe somewhat corrupt, isn't all that bad, otherwise they wouldn't have the manpower to build and operate a death star.

In other words, in the movies, we see all of the star wars universe from the perspective of jedi and their allies. From a completely objective standpoint, the sith may not be all that evil and the jedi may not be all that good.

 

[masonsjax]

I always assumed balance to the force meant dominance by the light side. The presence of sith is what disrupts the balance.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

The Jedi council in interesting simply because of it's existence. Consider that a person strong in the force, who chooses to follow the path of the Dark Side, will be relatively easy to deal with if necessary, but most likely it will remain a minor, local problem.

But instead, a group is formed to find and train people with a reasonable proclivity to use the Force. So, as a result a great number of these people are trained in the use of the Force and with training their abilities grow so that they are powerful enough to be a true problem for the Jedi themselves.

The Jedi are already aware that the Dark Side is attractive to the inexperienced and impatient. It's easier to use and appears stronger. It's inevitable that some of the people they train are going to fall to the Dark Side. So it's almost as if they are setting up their own demise simply by existing.

I hope they deal with that concept in the coming movies. Some super old master-stroke by the original Jedi or some Sith Lord who infiltrated the original Jedi to create a prophecy of "The One who will bring balance", or leave out the Sith Lord and the original Jedi masters realized that true balance would either be even number of Jedi/Sith or none at all.

One thing we never get to see (yet) are the Sith training stables, we see the Jedi temple and training programs in 1-3 but apparently Palpatine had a group of disciples waiting in the wings as a threat to Vader to keep him in line (it's interesting hen you read about the accepted in between canon of the Palpatine/Vader relationship which is far more adversarial than 4 and 5 make it seem).

One thing I was slightly sad about was when I realized Snoke was another Sith Lord. I thought it'd be more interesting to watch the First Orders leader be a political and military leader rather than a religious leader like Palpatine (if you consider the Sith and the Dark Side as a type of religion). Palpatine was a religious zealot that butted heads with Vader and the political leadership of the empire, the 2nd Death Star was a pet project that Palpatine forced through I'm spit of the protests of Vader and senior leadership.

Maybe they think we wouldn't find the story interesting if we had a leader like Thrawn who had no force abilities but was a brilliant strategist.

 

[Homercidal]

I think it was just easier and opened more possibilities if they didn't include any of the books as canon. I thought Thrawn was a great adversary in the books, but I'm not sure he's as compelling as a Sith lord, or an antagonist with family connections. At least to the majority of SW fans, anyway.

I didn't know until recently there was an adversarial relationship between Sith and Pupil, but apparently there HAS to be. For starters, being bad is simply a fact of being for any Sith hopeful. Second, you can only become a Sith Lord by killing your mentor. I'm not sure why any Sith Lord would ever want to take a student, actually!

I'm curious to know how there came to be a new Sith Lord when Vader killed Palpatine and he himself died immediately thereafter. Is there a story that covers the time between ROTJ and TFA? It almost seems as though the "always two" sith rule is slightly flexible...

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

One thing we never get to see (yet) are the Sith training stables, we see the Jedi temple and training programs in 1-3 but apparently Palpatine had a group of disciples waiting in the wings as a threat to Vader to keep him in line (it's interesting hen you read about the accepted in between canon of the Palpatine/Vader relationship which is far more adversarial than 4 and 5 make it seem).

Well the important thing is that this could have nothing to do with the Sith. Just because osmsone is a dark side force user, doesn't mean they're sith. Sith are a specific order of Dark Side users. We have in canon, non-Sith dark side force users, the Inquisitors from Rebels.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Well the important thing is that this could have nothing to do with the Sith. Just because osmsone is a dark side force user, doesn't mean they're sith. Sith are a specific order of Dark Side users. We have in canon, non-Sith dark side force users, the Inquisitors from Rebels.

It makes you wonder though if those non-affiliated factions of force users factor into the "balance" of the force. Or because we've only ever been shown the Jedi vs. Sith conflict does that mean they're the only ones who truly matter? I really hope we meet some new force users in 8-9 simply so we can see a wider range of characters and how they fit themselves into the greater conflict.

 

[Homercidal]

Well the important thing is that this could have nothing to do with the Sith. Just because osmsone is a dark side force user, doesn't mean they're sith. Sith are a specific order of Dark Side users. We have in canon, non-Sith dark side force users, the Inquisitors from Rebels.

It makes you wonder though if those non-affiliated factions of force users factor into the "balance" of the force. Or because we've only ever been shown the Jedi vs. Sith conflict does that mean they're the only ones who truly matter? I really hope we meet some new force users in 8-9 simply so we can see a wider range of characters and how they fit themselves into the greater conflict.

Good question. Sith are specifically trained and accepted into the "club" known as the Sith.

It's interesting to note that Snoke isn't mentioned as being a Sith Lord. The Knights of Ren are a separate order of Dark Side users. So it's possible that the Sith ARE extinct, but that other Dark Side users can form relationships like Snoke and Kylo.

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

It makes you wonder though if those non-affiliated factions of force users factor into the "balance" of the force. Or because we've only ever been shown the Jedi vs. Sith conflict does that mean they're the only ones who truly matter? I really hope we meet some new force users in 8-9 simply so we can see a wider range of characters and how they fit themselves into the greater conflict.

Well we already have one new force sensitive. Maz Katana. Also clearly a light side user as well.

I always imagined to be honest how great a movie would be having a force user either light or dark who was just a normal worker. Like a mercenary, or assassin, or something similar.

 

[JonM]

Apparently there was a scene that didn't make it into the movie where Maz Kanata, in an effort to get away from the Storm Troopers, used the Force to pull the ceiling down on them.

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

Good question. Sith are specifically trained and accepted into the "club" known as the Sith.

It's interesting to note that Snoke isn't mentioned as being a Sith Lord. The Knights of Ren are a separate order of Dark Side users. So it's possible that the Sith ARE extinct, but that other Dark Side users can form relationships like Snoke and Kylo.

The sith were specific order of darkside users. I'm assuming that the Sith would have pissed off other darkside users as well because of the order of 2. And they manipulated other darkside users with the promise of Sith Lordship, like Asajj Ventress.

I do think it will be interesting to see and I think Luke's role in episode 8 would be the indicator. Maybe he wanted to leave long enough for the Jedi council to disband and instead of training in the "way of the jedi" he'll teach the way of the light side and train more people with less central control and power.

 

[j1n]

 

[kombat]

What gives you the idea that Maz Kanata is Force-sensitive? I've seen it twice and must have missed the cues, as I didn't get that at all.

 

[JonM]

She talks about the Force in a way that suggests she understands it more than just hearing about it, she feels that the light saber is calling out to Rey, etc.

 

[Homercidal]

She talks about the Force in a way that suggests she understands it more than just hearing about it, she feels that the light saber is calling out to Rey, etc.

Agreed. She seemed to me to be at least sensitive to the Force. Plus she took the time and effort and money to get Luke's lightsaber. Judging by her profession I'd say she has more than a casual interest in him, and I'd place that interest in wanting to assist not just the rebellion, but in advancing the tenants of the Light.

 

[JonM]

Wookiepedia says she's Force sensitive but never trained as a Jedi.

 

[masonsjax]

"I'm no jedi, but I know the force".

I also had heard the rumor about the cut scene with her pulling down the tavern using the force. I think she's a force user.

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

What gives you the idea that Maz Kanata is Force-sensitive? I've seen it twice and must have missed the cues, as I didn't get that at all.

It's in the Force Awakens Visual Dictionary. She kept her force abilities hidden until the Emperor died.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1465438165/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

You can see her page in the preview.

And there were other things like the deleted scene of her using force pull. And the way she knew the lightsaber called to Rey, and her sensing of the Awakening in the force and the feel of the ebb and flow of dark and light side.

 

[JonM]

That deleted scene where she pulls the ceiling down will reportedly be on the Blu-Ray.

 

[Homercidal]

That deleted scene where she pulls the ceiling down will reportedly be on the Blu-Ray.

And Han will probably reach for his blaster before Kylo Ren stabs him through with his lightsaber...

Oh wait, I forgot Lucas doesn't have creative control anymore!

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

And Han will probably reach for his blaster before Kylo Ren stabs him through with his lightsaber...

Oh wait, I forgot Lucas doesn't have creative control anymore!

I was waiting for Han to pull out a thermal detonator and blow Kylo up, but then we'd have to argue if Han was going to blow his son up before or after being stabbed.

 

[brewy]

The Vader from Spaceball's looks more dangerous then KYLO REN..... ☺. And the "I'm your father story" is not new.... 😆 And kill the Death Star... new? No....☺ Sorry and Snoke .... with out words 😂 Vader and the Imperator this was hugh evil. 😕 just the speech to the mass of people was frightening... like speech in WW2😯

 

[JonM]

Thanks for your ... timely input.

 

[Homercidal]

FWIW I read the other day that Abrams says Rey's parents were not in TFA. So out the window with Leia, Han, Luke.

Maybe The Force knocked up some other chick?

Maybe Boba Fett had some down time and met a willing partner at the Space Diner and they rocketed off to a Motel (that charges by the Parsec) to put the Big Bang Theory to test?

Do we really know everything that R2 hides under that horny metal shell of his??

Ever wonder how C3-PO got the nickname "Goldenrod"?

Perhaps Padme didn't ACTUALLY die in Episode III! Maybe it was all a ruse to protect her from Anniken and the Sith! Maybe she had a secret love affair with Obi Wan. (or Yoda...?)

 

[JonM]

But then he walked that comment back saying something like "Rey didn't become aware of the identity of her parents in Ep. VII" or something like that.

 

[drainbamage]

But then he walked that comment back saying something like "Rey didn't become aware of the identity of her parents in Ep. VII" or something like that.

Yeah, they backpedaled on it. Which could mean that her parents aren't physically in the movie, or just that we don't *find out* who they are yet.

 

[Pyg]

I am going to go out on a limb and say she is Mace Windu's kid.
He must have survived the fall and lived out his years someplace.

 

[JonM]

You know, if Lando got together with a white lady, their offspring would probably have a complexion like Rashida Jones, so I'm not ruling him out either.