[SPOILERS] Star Wars - The Force Awakens / Rogue One

[olotti]

Yes. But that doesn't mean that Snoke has to be Plagueis.

Snoke is (by the movie's presentation though who knows there could be a puppet master) the master. Ren was in training. Killing Han was the thing he had to do to become a sith lord. Similar to how Luke had to face Vader and not turn to become a Jedi Knight.

Agree, yeah I'm not saying he is plagius but it wouldn't surprise me if he was. I can see that kylo ren killing his father would've been the last thing he had to do to completely convert him to the dark side, I don't think he's sith level yet but doing this completely converts him to the dark side like anakin going after his mentor. However I'm surprised that ren almost got his but kicked by a guy who'd never even held a light saber before, that should've been a one sided affair but can't kill of fin right away.

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

Agree, yeah I'm not saying he is plagius but it wouldn't surprise me if he was. I can see that kylo ren killing his father would've been the last thing he had to do to completely convert him to the dark side, I don't think he's sith level yet but doing this completely converts him to the dark side like anakin going after his mentor. However I'm surprised that ren almost got his but kicked by a guy who'd never even held a light saber before, that should've been a one sided affair but can't kill of fin right away.

Well what confuses me about Ren's battle (and I'm sure it was on purpose to show a flaw) was he could have just bested Finn with a force push or choke. Instead he opted for the violent kill. Kind of similar with Rey but he knows Rey has the force and is very powerful with it and he likely fears she's more powerful than him.

 

[Ridire]

I was disappointed that Spock and Kirk didn't have a more prominent role in the new film...

 

[Barley_Bob]

The pacing of the movie was a bit too intense. While it kept the film from being as boring as II and III, it also limited character development of the new characters, and limited the amount of storybuilding. There was so much ground to cover in 2 hours and 15 minutes that everything kind of felt crammed-in at times. If the movie was an hour longer, I think it really could have filled in some of the holes and built up the characters better.
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This is my biggest problem with the movie by far. There was a moment, like, half way through where I looked at Rey and realized she still hadn't found 5 minutes to take a shower and change her clothes. Come on. Because it's so fast paced, you never get to see the characters grapple with what's happening to them. It works sometimes. The few slow moments are more dramatic because they're actually slow, but it would be way better with some extra time added just for pacing. Those few slow moments, by the way, are totally lionized by Kylo Ren, making him the most developed new character by far.

The other things I didn't like were -
1. Captain Phasma. Seriously, what a waste of Gwendaline Christie.
2. Poe's ridiculous sequence where he blows up like half a dozen tie fighters and several storm troopers in mere seconds.
3. Poe in general. He's a great pilot, and that's all we've got for such an important character. He should have died.
3. Death Star III. I really was just not invested in one more canyon run.

But the movie was very good. All the new main characters were good, although Rey was somewhat bland by the end. She needs a lot more fleshing out. I liked Kylo Ren, and my favorite was Finn. The lightsaber battles were great, and the aerial combat was a lot of fun.

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

What I didn't like about the story was the whole death planet thing - again. Oh my god, for the third time they've blown up the giant weapon. Seriously, this was like Robot Chicken was doing a satire. Please, please, don't build another giant round mega weapon.

Yes, but the idea of the first order mimicking the Empire would indicate their desire to have a similar weapon and succeed where the Empire failed. And you could argue that they did. As they wiped out a system, and then got out of there with minimal casualties to leadership. Snoke, Ren, the General (forget his name) and Phasma are all alive (unless Phasma is only in episode VIII as a flash back she's confirmed to return) It had a failure but that failure required a good amount of work to take care of.

I do agree that it's reached critical mass. I think they should focus instead on other plot lines. I'd even go with something different like a super fast and effective transport that lets Ren go where he wants to super fast and be extra devastating.

 

[olotti]

Well what confuses me about Ren's battle (and I'm sure it was on purpose to show a flaw) was he could have just bested Finn with a force push or choke. Instead he opted for the violent kill. Kind of similar with Rey but he knows Rey has the force and is very powerful with it and he likely fears she's more powerful than him.

That's what makes kylo ren's character interesting to me, like anakin you see the pull between good and evil throughout the movie and somehow in the battle between Rae and Finn the light sabers were cutting trees in half but somehow ren couldn't best Finn with his back turned to him, but I get why. I think like others have said in you tube clips I've watched Ren was not only physically weakend in the last fight but also mentally weakened.

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

I don't buy him being Physically weak since he overtook Rey and Finn. What I think is he was filled with rage and so on so forth. Especially seeing someone with a Skywalker lightsaber, especially one that people thought was lost. To him logic left and rage took over. Logic would have had him take down Finn quickly by throwing him to a tree and taking the saber from him. But he wasn't thinking logically. Which I think is more to your last point.

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

1. Captain Phasma. Seriously, what a waste of Gwendaline Christie.

I don't really want to address the other points as they're mostly opinions and opinions are just that.

But Christie is on for the nextfilm. Maybe it will only be as a flashback, but I doubt it. My guess is she went in the compactor and escaped and then escaped the planet in disgrace.

 

[Barley_Bob]

I don't really want to address the other points as they're mostly opinions and opinions are just that.

But Christie is on for the nextfilm. Maybe it will only be as a flashback, but I doubt it. My guess is she went in the compactor and escaped and then escaped the planet in disgrace.

Well, this is a thread for opinions and theories, so address observations at will!

I've heard she'll be back and I agree with your assessment, but they need to make some serious lemonade out of this lemon.

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

You'd like a more fleshed out character rather than one who's entirety essentially came talking about Finn. I hope Phasma becomes a bounty hunter or gets back into it with the military and gets her battle with Finn that she deserves.

 

[Barley_Bob]

You'd like a more fleshed out character rather than one who's entirety essentially came talking about Finn. I hope Phasma becomes a bounty hunter or gets back into it with the military and gets her battle with Finn that she deserves.

If Ren is off to finish his training with Snoke, then maybe she'll be the main villain of the next film. That would be really great, actually.

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

Benicio Del Toro will be playing a villain in the next film. My guess is a bounty hunter/jabba type or maybe a general.

I'm thinking Phasma is kind of a secondary villain, more like Finn's villain if you would. The Boba Fett to Han Solo type. Though personally I hope it's more fleshed out than Boba Fett and I certainly hope she gets a more proper death than Fett did.

 

[Ridire]

OK, after digesting this (I just saw it yesterday) I have put my finger on a few things that I didn't like. It was an entertaining movie, but I don't think I thought as highly of it as most I've heard discuss it.

1. I hate when the director/writer assumes that the viewer is too dumb to understand context so they have characters say things that are ridiculous so as to spell it out. An example: Snoke says something to Kylo Ren that includes the words "...your father, Han Solo...". Did he really think that Ren did not know that Solo was his father, so he had to specify that he meant Solo by "father"? Do you say to your friend, "...your dad, you know, Tom..."? I think it would have been obvious to the viewer that when Han tells Leia "he was here...our son was here..." and then he has the face off with Ren later on, that Solo is the father. Another example is that we had to hear, at least 3 times, what a great pilot Poe is, including the awkward, misplaced dialog of Fin during the battle (following the fairly preposterous display of piloting abilities by Poe).

2. As others have said, it was too fast. There were no stops, no slow moments that allowed us to understand the characters. It was almost like a shoot 'em up movie. Entertaining because of the action but I don't think the plot or the characters were developed very well.

3. Along the same lines as #2, I felt the characters were forced to evolve way too fast. It was like they wanted us to have the backstory of 15 characters all thrown out and as complete as you would have after a full trilogy. Are we really to believe that Rey went from no knowledge of the force to just figuring out that she could use the Jedi mind trick with no training or teaching? It was like watching the alien in the movie Species evolve over the span of an hour.

4. I thought Carrie Fisher, in general, was horrible, and Harrison Ford only marginally better. I suppose I can cut them a little bit of a break, as their characters were central to the plot, but they could have spent a little less time on them. I also didn't buy into Han reverting back to his smuggling ways after Ren turned to the dark side.

 

[eadavis80]

Here is my take on The Force Awakens:


The set design was great. IT was so nice to see people act on location and in front of physical props rather than in front of a green screen. The lack of CGI was arguably my favorite thing.

I really liked Han Solo and Leia in the film. I think they were believable and good characters. I actually got a little emotional (amazing, I know) when I saw the old characters on screen.

Han carried the movie, dialogue wise to me. I loved his dialogue especially when he was sandwiched between two parties that he screwed over in the past when he was on the cargo ship. Han is a great movie character and I have always liked his sly wit.

I did like Finn, but I liked him more once he and Han shared the screen together. I fear that without Han in the next movie, I won't like Finn as much. Finn and Han were great foil characters.

Everyone in Hollywood should try to hire Mark Hammil's agent. He did not voice a syllable and probably got $15 million for that role. Actually, I think he signed a 3-movie deal, so he'll obviously be more involved in episodes 8 and 9, but from now on whenever someone does the silent treatment, I'll be like, 'He was all Luke.’

I COULD NOT STAND the Supreme Being. I think it was horrible. I'm talking Jar Jar level of disgust here. Now, I know it was just a hologram, but just to see some big ugly jobber ogre looking thing and even his name sounds like something a 4th grader came up with. Palpantine is probably my favorite character from the first six movies, so I was severely disappointed with what appears to be his replacement - unless he didn't really die in Jedi and she stuff that shot out of the Death Star was some dark side force and he could reincarnate himself. It's possible because remember in Sith his whole thing was telling Anakin how he could teach Anakin how to save people from dying.

Not a big fan of Ren. I felt she was no different than the protagonists from Divergent or Hunger Games - the strong willed female. She wasn't bad, but I didn't think she was distinct at all. I've seen that character a lot - her name is Catniss.

Ky-Lo was fair at best. I kind of like how he removed his helmet and seemed more 'human’ but I also thought he was kind of a tool. I did like when he got all passed and started using his light saber to destroy the computer panel. What I didn't like though was his 'death' was just so anti-climatic. He was left in that frozen forest and then the next thing was that planet got destroyed. I remember someone saying they had to go get him, so I can't fathom he's dead, but I thought there was a lack of closure there - probably deliberate, but I didn't like it.

I thought they did a great job making a lot of subtle references to the old movies - like Han referring to the trash compactor and even some individual scenes were very paralleled to the original trilogy.

I loved the 'new cantina' part with all those creatures. Well done.

I also liked how it didn't take itself too seriously - like when Ren uses the Force on the Storm Trooper to make him drop his weapon and he's all like “I will drop my weapon.” I think it's good that STar Wars can laugh at itself at times.

I did not like how easy it was for the Resistance to blow up the planet. The thing can destroy 5 planets with the press of a button, but Han and Cherie with a few sticky grenades and a handful of X-Wings can go in there and blow it up after they take 5 minutes to make a plan?! Kind of job.

Do you think Ren is Luke's daughter? Obi Wan off-spring? When she had the flashback with Luke's light saber and then they used Luke's theme song when she used it. If so, Luke is a pretty job father, but hey - he didn't have a good father either. The reason I think she COULD be offspring/related to Obi Wan is because Ren used the Jedi Mindtrick just like Obi Wan did in EP. IV with the storm troopers when he said, “These aren't the druids you're looking for.”

I did like the new Droid a lot more than I thought I would.

I liked Cherie and I liked how they showcased his kick ass cross bow.

 

[Ridire]

Just one correction...Ren is the "bad guy", not the girl. Rey is the girl.

EDIT: and how could Rey be Obi-wan's offspring? At the time this movie is set, Obi-Wan has been dead some 40 years...

 

[eadavis80]

Maybe 'offpsring is the wrong word - but maybe someone from the Kenobi family. Sorry about the typo on the female character.

 

[Ridire]

Maybe 'offpsring is the wrong word - but maybe someone from the Kenobi family. Sorry about the typo on the female character.

Ah, got it. I thought you meant his daughter. But you're suggesting maybe a granddaughter or something.

 

[kombat]

3. Along the same lines as #2, I felt the characters were forced to evolve way too fast.

I disagree, I think they spent adequate time fleshing out the newer characters (Rey, Finn, Poe, Kylo Ren), at the expense of those we already knew (Leia, Solo, Chewie). I would have liked to learn more about General Nux and Phasma, but there are 2 more movies coming.

Are we really to believe that Rey went from no knowledge of the force to just figuring out that she could use the Jedi mind trick with no training or teaching?

Maybe she has had training and teaching. There's speculation that Luke Skywalker is her father, and she's already had some training, but had her memory wiped for her protection when she was dropped off on Jaakku.

But then again, I was also 100% convinced that The Matrix Revolutions was going to reveal that they'd been living in a second, "Blue" Matrix the whole time.

4. I thought Carrie Fisher, in general, was horrible, and Harrison Ford only marginally better.

Fisher was a weak point, for sure, but at least her scenes were quite limited. And I thought Ford was fine. Maybe my standards have just been lowered after 3 movies of horrible Anakin actors.

 

[Ridire]

Maybe my standards have just been lowered after 3 movies of horrible Anakin actors.

And maybe mine have been raised too high because I so much wanted this to revert to the awesomeness of the original trilogy. I think I also suffer from the fact that I was so young when the originals came out that my perception of them is skewed towards thinking they are better than they probably really are.

But this was a vast improvement over the prequels, in my opinion. I will give it that.

Harrison Ford had his moments, but I thought he generally was a weak link.

 

[kombat]

The set design was great. IT was so nice to see people act on location and in front of physical props rather than in front of a green screen. The lack of CGI was arguably my favorite thing.

Agreed 100%. I loved that the explosions they were running away from were clearly actual explosions. It didn't look like a video game to me, like the first 3 did.

I did like when [Kylo Ren] got all passed and started using his light saber to destroy the computer panel.

LOL, that was one of my favorite parts, too. It seemed very sincere and passionate, and then he paused for a second, and then calmly asked, "Is there anything else?" before getting even worse news.

What I didn't like though was his 'death' was just so anti-climatic.

Oh don't worry, he's not dead.

I also liked how it didn't take itself too seriously - like when Ren [you mean Rey] uses the Force on the Storm Trooper to make him drop his weapon and he's all like “I will drop my weapon.”

Interesting trivia - the actor who played that storm trooper was none other than Daniel Craig. James Bond himself.

 

[Cyclman]

I am a huge Star Wars fan, thought they did a great job on the film, but maybe it is just one too many. There have already been epic space fights (not in TFA), epic light saber battles (not in TFA), great characters, etc. in the previous films. I think the next problem is this "generation" of films is too video-game, too fast-paced, it's like they assume all audiences have ADD. (The plus side of this is that the video game will be incredible). A Hitchcock style storyline, getting deep into the characters, might have been a new path making the new films distinct from the old (filmmakers "back in the day" could make a film intense with great story and acting, not just explosions). The problem is the previous films had "done it all" so what could the next three really outdo them on? I am of course not saying it shouldn't be an action movie, but balance of plot / action would be an improvement. It was certainly n entertaining film (going to see it for a 2nd time today), but lacked depth. Maybe after seeing the storyline again I'll change my view, but overall I agree with those that it was too fast paced and not an adequately profound story.

+1 on the Rey shower scene idea, that would add a new facet to Star Wars.

 

[eadavis80]

I think though - at the end of the day - one thing this movie did which is good for all Star Wars fans - was generate discussion. And, it really made me want to see what they'll do next. Remember, nobody knew after IV that Luke and Leia were related or that Vader was Luke's father. They've got a lot of questions to answer, but they've got plenty of time to do it!

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Remember, nobody knew after IV that Luke and Leia were related or that Vader was Luke's father. They've got a lot of questions to answer, but they've got plenty of time to do it!

Sad part is, a LOT of the general non-fan public STILL does not know this despite seeing all the previous movies.

 

[calebgk]

I'm with most of you on the pacing. Same story could have used an extra 30 minutes. But I was very pleased with it. Kylo Ren started as a badass, but kind of devolved into a angsty Force-brat. Stopping bolts mid-air to losing saber battle to a noob. I liked Chewie, specifically the humour, but also when Han dropped, Chewie be like "Imma tear sh*t up!"

Highlight for me, specifically - BB8's thumb's up. I'm still laughing.

 

[Homercidal]

+1 on the Rey shower scene idea, that would add a new facet to Star Wars.

Although I think she is very hot, I have no real interest in Rey sexually. This very much goes against my normal behaviour.

I thought she did a fantastic job in the role. I didn't find her awesome abilities to be terribly unusual for someone so powerful in the force. Many people with an unusual talent in the Force seem to be quite good at different things, and her upbringing with scavenging only helps her understand mechanics and people.

Ren was pretty good. I thought he was kind of whiney, but when you look back at Luke and Anniken that kind of behaviour tends to run in people of that age, and I think it's part of the process of turning someone to the Dark Side to make them think they can simply take what they want and the world owes them everything.

Looking forward to more character development in the next movie. I think more time will be spent focusing on the relationships between characters just as ESB did with Luke and Yoda.

Trying to find another day to see this one again.

 

[Punity]

I'm with most of you on the pacing. Same story could have used an extra 30 minutes. But I was very pleased with it. Kylo Ren started as a badass, but kind of devolved into a angsty Force-brat. Stopping bolts mid-air to losing saber battle to a noob. I liked Chewie, specifically the humour, but also when Han dropped, Chewie be like "Imma tear sh*t up!"

Highlight for me, specifically - BB8's thumb's up. I'm still laughing.

I thought they did a great job of mimicking Anakins decent into the dark side. Now I know he was defeated by Obi much better fighter then Rey/Fn but still he was supposed to be the most powerful and could have easily taken out Obi but let rage and passion cloud his judgement much like Ren.

 

[jddevinn]

When the "starkiller" fired at a bunch of planets at once and everyone was watching.... I was just sitting there thinking That's not how light works. Then when they attack the base, and make a huge effort to HL past the shields then pull up fast... I'm thinking why didn't they just kamikaze some fighters into the target? Also why is the "resistance" apparently less armed than the old "rebellion"? Most importantly where was Darth Jar Jar?!?

 

[hunter_le five]

Most importantly where was Darth Jar Jar?!?

Finally, someone is asking the important questions.

 

[drainbamage]

Also why is the "resistance" apparently less armed than the old "rebellion"?

I was wondering this as well. It has been presumably 30 or so years since the defeat of the Empire and the establishment of the new Republic...and these guys are still hunkered down in hidden bases with a handful of fighters to spare?

I haven't really read any of the Expanded Universe books in probably 15 years, but I know they're obviously branching off from that whole storyline. Is there any media out there that bridges the gap between the original trilogy and TFA?

 

[Ridire]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq559Vzc5MA[/ame]