Split Boils

[rodwha]

I've asked before about split boils, and the responses were basically to try to proportionally split everything between pots (wort,hops, etc.). I don't want to split everything in this manner though.

What I'd like to do if it works well, and keeps my numbers fairly honest, is to do my main boil as my 60 min boil in which I do my bittering addition. But I'd like to boil my extract for 20 mins and do my flavor and aroma additions, and then combine it all at flameout.

Will this work? And would my IBU's be on target?

I'd likely boil for 60 mins the partial mash wort, which generally makes up 50-60% of my sugars, though this may change soon as I think I'm understanding water chemistry better, and have made a pot koozie to keep my mash temps straight, which I'll be testing out tomorrow.

If this won't give me honest numbers is there a way to figure them out?

 

[Yooper]

The issue with two differently sized boils is the dilution factor for the hops bittering.

For example, say you have a pot with 3 gallons for your main boil. Even if you add enough hops to have 100 IBUs in that pot, by the time you boil it, you may have 2 gallons left. Then, you'd add 3 gallons of no-IBU wort to it- so you'd have less than 45 IBUs as a max even possible.

That may work in low IBU beers, but not in beers like IPAs. So it would depend greatly on what you're making. You don't have to boil your extract- you can add it at flameout- but you can if you want to. Boiling it for 20 minutes is a fairly long time, though and I wouldn't do that. It also takes up a lot of room in the pot- you can boil a lot bigger volume if you just add the extract at the end of the boil.

It just seems really odd to me to boil some hops additions in one pot, along with extract, and add the bittering hops to the other pot. I don't see why that would be a preference, so I'm not understanding something here.

 

[Yreval]

I'd think the biggest complicating factor regarding the hop boils would be that the utilization factor of the hops depends on the gravity of the boil. You're already adding different hops to different pots (at different volumes) for different times, but make sure you don't forget that the wort in each pot will be different gravity.

I guess there's no reason specifically not to do it, but be sure do your extra algebra if you have a specific bitterness and gravity you want to land at. Palmer's How to Brew has some useful equations for both.

That said... what do you think the advantage of this is going to be? Why not just split your boil evenly? It doesn't seem like any more or less work, and it should be more straightforward to guarantee some consistency and land on target for your style.

 

[rodwha]

You (Yooper) had told me, which I hadn't known, that by boiling 4 gals and topping off to 6 gals in effect cut my IBU's by a third as I had diluted my wort with plain water. So I've been wanting to do what I can to cut that down, if not out, but without reducing my end volume. I was hoping that by doing it in such a way I'd get around this.

It's been suggested to split everything up in an even manner, and to hop them accordingly, but I didn't want to do that. It seems that's the only way though.

But I have found that I can get 6 gals to boil in my new pot when I put it across two burners and cover it. I may just bring my end volume back down to 5 gals though so as not to hassle myself so much.

Does adding the extract at flameout still mess up the IBU's if it's all accounted for in the calculator?

I've always added my LME at flameout, though I've often boiled the DME, but because I didn't have much wort, just steeping type grains, or not much base grain. I figured maybe using the extract to do my flavor/aroma additions it might keep me from reducing my IBU's so much.

 

[Yreval]

Does adding the extract at flameout still mess up the IBU's if it's all accounted for in the calculator?

If you add your extract at flame out, after you've boiled the hops, you should use the gravity of the wort before you add that extract as the gravity in your IBU calculator, rather than your total SG. The gravity of your wort without all that sugar will be different than the SG of your recipe, and the utilization of your hops will be different too.

Your IBU/SG ratio (if this interests you) still uses the total SG of the recipe, though.

 

[Yooper]

Regardless of prior information, IBUs are not dependent on wort gravity. John Palmer said he "got it wrong" in How to Brew. He did tell me that it may be a bit impacted by break material, but not all that much.

Anyway, adding the bulk extract at flame out is a great approach for several reasons- first, it gives you more room to boil more in the kettle you have as extract takes up a lot of room, and secondly it will help reduce maillard reactions like darkening and making a "cooked extract" flavor in the beer.

If you can do a nearly full boil by straddling two burners, that is a great way to do it.

 

[Yreval]

Regardless of prior information, IBUs are not dependent on wort gravity. John Palmer said he "got it wrong" in How to Brew. He did tell me that it may be a bit impacted by break material, but not all that much.

How to Brew has been my primary resource so far, and if that's true, I stand totally corrected. Sorry for any misinformation.

 

[Weezy]

+1 on Yoopers comment about wort gravity not being critical.

To add to what she was describing before about IBU dilution:
The point is that its generally held that you can't pack more than 100 IBUs into wort. So, when you boil a lower volume of wort with a hop schedule meant for a larger volume of wort, you need to worry about your IBUs not hitting the cap/ saturation point. It's just a simple ratio, so its easy to track.

Say you have a 5 gal recipe with 60 IBUs, but want to boil only 2.5 gallons. The IBUs that you're going to try to pack into that 2.5 gallon boil is:

5 gal x 60 IBU / 2.5 gal = 120 IBUs (no good)

 

[rodwha]

According to the calculator (I forgot to adjust for top off) my IBU's went from 102 to 93. But using the formula you gave I tried to stash 111.6 IBU's into 5 gals, which just won't quite cut it. So if I did it correctly I actually came out with closer to 83 IBU's (100 X 5 / 6).

I quit boiling my LME when I did burn it as I obviously hadn't stirred fast/hard enough. And then reading of how it darkens as well…

As I found out yesterday I can easily boil 5 gals IF I use my spoon to prop the lid open a bit on one edge, which, of course, heats up my spoon! But I found that I was nearing a boil over with the lid completely on despite being an 32 qt pot. I'd really like to keep the lid off though.

I may try wrapping an old towel around my pot to act as an insulator and see if that helps any (keeping the bottom edge well away from the burners).

I've also been considering bending the lid on one edge, but I hate to do such.

It required about 1.25 gals of top off plus 6 lbs of LME and maybe 12 oz of water/dry yeast to reach ~6 gals.

 

[Yooper]

According to the calculator (I forgot to adjust for top off) my IBU's went from 102 to 93. But using the formula you gave I tried to stash 111.6 IBU's into 5 gals, which just won't quite cut it. So if I did it correctly I actually came out with closer to 83 IBU's (100 X 5 / 6).

I quit boiling my LME when I did burn it as I obviously hadn't stirred fast/hard enough. And then reading of how it darkens as well…

As I found out yesterday I can easily boil 5 gals IF I use my spoon to prop the lid open a bit on one edge, which, of course, heats up my spoon! But I found that I was nearing a boil over with the lid completely on despite being an 32 qt pot. I'd really like to keep the lid off though.

I may try wrapping an old towel around my pot to act as an insulator and see if that helps any (keeping the bottom edge well away from the burners).

I've also been considering bending the lid on one edge, but I hate to do such.

It required about 1.25 gals of top off plus 6 lbs of LME and maybe 12 oz of water/dry yeast to reach ~6 gals.

You definitely don't want to boil with a lid on. Not just to avoid boilovers, but to avoid keeping in the DMS precursors, although with 100% extract it may not be as critical.

Boil as much as you can, getting a rolling boil (this is the critical part), without a lid. If you must, you can keep the lid half on but even that is not recommended.

 

[rodwha]

My lid was mostly on, and about half of my recipe is grain.

I'm guessing I'll likely get a bit of cream corn in my IPA?

 

[Yooper]

My lid was mostly on, and about half of my recipe is grain.

I'm guessing I'll likely get a bit of cream corn in my IPA?

Maybe, but maybe not. You definitely don't want to have the lid on, but you may have had enough steam escape to be ok.

 

[rodwha]

I guess I'll find out in about 2 months…

I'm trying a 5 and then 6 gal boil now with a towel folded into 3 and wrapped around the pot with the base about 2" or so above the bottom of the pot.

 

[Yooper]

I guess I'll find out in about 2 months…

I'm trying a 5 and then 6 gal boil now with a towel folded into 3 and wrapped around the pot with the base about 2" or so above the bottom of the pot.

I've seen some photos on the forum of insulated pots- using something like hot water heater insulation or the like. It think it was called 'reflectix' or another word close to that.

 

[rodwha]

So I've noticed that with a towel wrapped around my pot I can get 5 gals to boil fairly well, not a vigorous nasty boil, but it boils. I heated up another gal in another pot and added it and it a very faint weak boil in two places, obviously the hot spots from the two burners.

That's not boiling well enough is it? If not it seems I'm stuck with a 5 gal boil, and will reconsider my batch sizes to be 5 gals instead.

 

[rodwha]

The lid on holding back DMS has me wondering if I were to modify what I have (a tamale steamer) it would hold in enough heat yet let out enough DMS, which is to, somehow, put tabs on the steamer plate, which drops down into the pot, so that it will hold tight to the rim.

This is it:

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[Weezy]

You're better off following Yooper's advice and looking into reflectix insulation to wrap the sides of your pot.
http://www.reflectixinc.com/basepage.asp?Page=Double+Reflective+Insulation&pageIndex=622

You can certainly leave the lid on yo help it get to a boil quicker, but then take it off.

 

[rodwha]

I've sent Reflectix an email asking questions. I see my local HomeDepot sells rolls of it for a descent price (~$17).

I can't seem to pull the lid off too far before my boil dies down to a very weak boil, and I even reduced my boil and batch size a little.

 

[rodwha]

This is what the reply email stated:

"Reflectix can only withstand a temperature of 180 degrees F. In your outlined usage the temp would be too high. We would not recommend using Reflectix in your application."

Are you sure it was used to insulate the brew pot? I hate to go against the manufacturer's recommendations, but if it has worked well for others I don't see why not. But I'm also uncertain as to which of their products they had been using, and I asked about the double sided barrier as it was much less expensive than the other products listed.

 

[rodwha]

I asked a few more questions and got this response:

"If the product comes in contact with temperatures above 180 degrees F the polyethylene will start to melt and at a high enough temperature the product will burn."

I'd like to talk to those who have used Reflectix (spl?) on their brew pot.

 

[jbaysurfer]

I have a reflectix wrap on my Mash Tun. I can promise you that if you fire a burner underneath it, it will singe and melt...and could easily start a fire. I know this because I once forgot to remove the wrap before firing the burner...and now I have a new wrap on it.

It's not going to work for a boil kettle. If you went electric you'd have a better chance, but if it's rated to 180F you're still in treacherous waters trying to bring wort to a boil with it wrapped around the kettle.

 

[rodwha]

I like an electric stove as I like boiling in the house where it's cooler and there aren't any bugs. I also like how the house smells all day long!

They were adamant about not using it for this purpose. But many people seem to without incidence. I'm curious.

I've singed my towels I use.

 

[jbaysurfer]

I like an electric stove as I like boiling in the house where it's cooler and there aren't any bugs. I also like how the house smells all day long!

They were adamant about not using it for this purpose. But many people seem to without incidence. I'm curious.

I've singed my towels I use.

Almost all the pictures you've seen are wraps that get removed when the burner goes on. There are not "many people" using it that way without incidence if I had to wager. I'm telling you first hand. That stuff melts and burns. You've been warned.

PS, when I refer to going "electric" I'm referring to a hot water heating element INSIDE the kettle. Not a pot sitting on an electric burner.

 

[rodwha]

I'll certainly heed your warning as they themselves warned me too.

You are the only one I've read of having any sort of melting problems. There are a few that claim it works well for them. This is why I figured you meant electric as there's no flame, which brings me to the question of how using an internal heater, which will still bring the temp above their stated 180*, wouldn't still melt.

 

[jbaysurfer]

I'll certainly heed your warning as they themselves warned me too.

You are the only one I've read of having any sort of melting problems. There are a few that claim it works well for them. This is why I figured you meant electric as there's no flame, which brings me to the question of how using an internal heater, which will still bring the temp above their stated 180*, wouldn't still melt.

Electric burners put off incredible heat. The heating elements do too; one is INSIDE a layer of stainless, the other is not. Can you imagine any difference?

You asked for real world feedback and I gave it too you. Who else has? You have two points of view. One from a guy who's melted it (over propane burner as disclosed) and one from the manufacturer.

See if you can get someone to tell you it's ok and run with that advice. The alternative doesn't seem to sit well with you.

Edit: I gave you time to search the net. The very first post I found said this:

I bought some reflectix to better insulate my kettle during mashing. My system is an 11 gallon eBIAB so I don't have to worry about burner heat. I ended up using 4 layers and made cut outs for the heating element, ball valve and sight glass. I think overall it turned out pretty good. I'll post some pictures tonight.

The fired up the system this weekend and noticed a problem with the foil tape used to secure the insulation to the kettle. The glue on the tape seemed to melt and started to lose it bond with the kettle. The tape glue also oozed out and made a sticky puddle at the bottom of the kettle.

How did you guys secure your reflectix? Any tips or lessons that might help out.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/tips-insulating-kettle-reflectix-328532/

 

[rodwha]

Sorry you mistook my post or I came off too vague. I did say I'd take your advice but didn't understand. It's all good.

 

[jbaysurfer]

^ No worries. I just want ya to be safe. If you can figure something out with it more power too ya. I'd finish the edges with foil tape if you're going to try it. Better yet, line the whole exterior with it. Should deflect some of the direct head from the plastic. Also, I'd make it short so the bottom doesn't come to close to your burner.

I get a little edgy sometimes. Sorry if I came off that way.

 

[rodwha]

Sometimes manufacturers give themselves a large cushion of safety, and with as many people mentioning using as such I figured this may be one of those times. But if someone states they experienced a failure I'll heed the warning!

For now I'll keep doing what I'm doing (reduced my batch size back down to 5 gals so as to need less top off). We are renting so I'll likely have better luck in 1 1/2 years.

 

[jbaysurfer]

^ Cheers....and I don't want to stifle innovation, I just wanted to warn you! Again, my experience was with a propane burner, so the open flame thing might be an issue. My foil tape idea above might help, but if you're going that route you could just encase some fiberglass in foil anyway and not worry about that temp rating. There are also other materials out there.

Just so you know, it's basically bubble wrap with a very very thin foil coating on the exterior. The Foil tape is probably 5-10x the thickness of whatever foil finish is on the reflectix.