Spike etching is off

[auburntsts]

. I just wish they mentioned it would be off when I bought it.

Don't have a dog in this fight, but do any of the other kettle brands list the tolerances of their internal volume markings on their websites? Also what's the industry avg tolerance for these type of markings and how critical is it to the brew that it be as accurate as possible? Finally since the etchings are standard and not an add-on, if you had known what the tolerance was and asked for no etching, would you have received a discount? If so how much?

Just trying to understand the issue as I gather info on building my own 3-vessel AG system.

 

[h22lude]

Don't have a dog in this fight, but do any of the other kettle brands list the tolerances of their internal volume markings on their websites? Also what's the industry avg tolerance for these type of markings and how critical is it to the brew that it be as accurate as possible? Finally since the etchings are standard and not an add-on, if you had known what the tolerance was and asked for no etching, would you have received a discount? If so how much?

Just trying to understand the issue as I gather info on building my own 3-vessel AG system.

Honestly, I don't know much about anything for other companies. I don't know if anyone lists it or not. I don't know if there is an industry standard. I just know about Spike since I bought from them and have first hand experience. If it were my website, I'd include that in the order page just so customers know. Anytime a product has an error range, I would think it would be smart to let the customer know.

Is 1/4 gallon critical to your set up? Overall, 1/4 gallon won't do much to change the beer. I personally just like to be as spot on as possible. I don't think being this anal about it makes better beer, I just like being exact with measurements. If it started to get to 1/2 gallon and more, then it may start to affect gravity which I think is possible with their 2.5% error range.

The etching is free so I don't think you would get a discount if you didn't get it. To me, it wasn't about getting a discount. I would have just gone a different direction (either added another port for a sight gauge or had a clean kettle and etched it myself).

 

[h22lude]

I just remeasured the etching.

I started actually looking at 4 gallons since I really don't use anything less than that.

4 gallons of water by weight (3785 grams) was 4.25 gallons in the kettle with my probe, element, dip tube and false bottom.
5 gallons of water was 5.25 gallons in the kettle
6 gallons of water was 6.25 gallons in the kettle
7 gallons of water was almost 7.5 (maybe 7.45) gallons in the kettle
8 gallons of water was 8.25 gallons in the kettle
9 gallons of water was 9.35 (between 9.25 and 9.5) gallons in the kettle

The parts in the kettle don't add .25 gallons but I'm ok with it being at .25. It actually makes it easy since it is pretty much right on the 1/4 gallon mark. What really pisses me off is the 9 gallon mark is off and the 7 gallon mark is even more off. If everything was .25 gallons off, it wouldn't be a big issue.

By no means am I saying Spike is a bad company. The welding on the TC ports are the best I have seen. The customer service is great. I just wish I knew the etchings would be off and even more important I wish I knew each gallon could be off from the next. I don't buy into the industry error standard. I just measured my Brew Bucket which has factory etching and every gallon and half gallon was spot on.

 

[MaryB]

RDWHAHB sheesh, 1/4 gallon is NOT going to make a difference in the long run!

 

[h22lude]

RDWHAHB sheesh, 1/4 gallon is NOT going to make a difference in the long run!

I don't know about you but when I pay close to $400 for a product, I want it to be perfect especially when part of that product is used for measuring. You may not care about being off 1/4 to 1/2 gallon but I do and I'm sure there are others that feel the same....which is why I posted this. I want those people that do care to be able to read this. Like I said, I'm not saying the quality of the kettle is bad. I just wish I knew the markings would be off as I wouldn't have gotten them. Some people like to be exact with their measurements. Others (like yourself) don't care as much.

 

[FunkedOut]

if you’re going to rely on weight for your water measurements, you should probably do so exclusively; not practical for a brew day.

your base lining of the kettle markings is missing temperature information.
A US gallon weighs ~3785 grams at 32*F.
Less at room temp, RI.
Even less at room temp, FL.
Even Less at mash temps.
Even less at boiling.

I guess I’m recommending to simply find a method that is practical for your brew day.
For me that means, getting close enough after mash, and after boil.
I trust the kettle markings to fill the pot, measure pre boil after mash and measure the wort after I remove the immersion chiller.

I did get lucky enough that my markings agree with a quart measuring cup from the kitchen.
Because of this thread, I decided to weigh what that quart measuring cup says is 32oz at room temp. It’s so far off of the 3785g, that weighing a pot with gallons of what is not worthwhile.

Doing it the other way gives repeatability, simplicity and accuracy.
I alway hit estimated volumes and gravitates within a few points.
Usually right on.

While I care about accuracy, I can honestly say that the weight of my water/wort/beer doesn’t seem to make a difference in the process or the finished beer. So I don’t care about the weight/density; just the volume it occupies.

 

[h22lude]

The weight of water doesn't change with temp. That is why it is more accurate to use for measuring. Well let me clarify, the weight of water does change but it is so small we wouldn't be able to measure it with any of the cheapo home scales. You would need a lab scale to measure the change. And I think you have it backwards. Boiling water weights more than cold water. But again, with just a gram scale we wouldn't see the difference.

For me, the most practical during brew day is either etching or sight gauge. This is why I wanted to calibrate the etchings, so I could use them on brew day. I use them to measure my strike water, preboil and post boil to make sure everything is going smooth.

 

[FunkedOut]

You’re right, the weight of a fixed amount of water doesn’t change with temp; it’s volume does.

I guess I could’ve phrased my last post better.
What I was trying to say is that if you take a container with a “1 US gallon” mark, you fill it with enough water until the water level hits that mark.
If you fill it with 32*F water, the water that container holds will weigh 3785 grams.
If you fill it to the same mark with room temperature water, it will weigh less.
etc.

The density of water is what is changing with temp.
Hold the weight constant, and the volume changes.
Hold the volume constant, and the weight changes.

Bottom line, etching and sight gauge are both ways to measure volume, not weight.
I think we’re saying the same thing.

 

[staticfritz]

4 gallons of water by weight (3785 grams) was 4.25 gallons in the kettle with my probe, element, dip tube and false bottom.

what's the water displacement of your "probe, element, dip tube and false bottom"????
how on earth would any kettle manufacturer be able to account for all the different random crap we install.
if your kettle is consistently off by 0.25ga, i'd say it's actually very accurate

 

[aeviaanah]

What's the water displacement of your "probe, element, dip tube and false bottom"????

How on earth would any kettle manufacturer be able to account for all the different random crap we install.

If your kettle is consistently off by 0.25ga, i'd say it's actually very accurate

+1

 

[BeardedBrews]

what's the water displacement of your "probe, element, dip tube and false bottom"????
how on earth would any kettle manufacturer be able to account for all the different random crap we install.
if your kettle is consistently off by 0.25ga, i'd say it's actually very accurate

You removed the part of his quote where he explicitly said his wasn't consistent and that he might have been fine if it had been.

There is very little water displacement from those parts, a HERMS coil is probably the only significant displacement part but you'd use a sight glass there. He is measuring after the 4 gallon mark anyway which means there shouldn't be any issues.

I'd say Spike was just lazy in their template, which really is a shame considering it isn't that hard to get right but is very hard to fix once it's wrong.

 

[h22lude]

You’re right, the weight of a fixed amount of water doesn’t change with temp; it’s volume does.

I guess I could’ve phrased my last post better.
What I was trying to say is that if you take a container with a “1 US gallon” mark, you fill it with enough water until the water level hits that mark.
If you fill it with 32*F water, the water that container holds will weigh 3785 grams.
If you fill it to the same mark with room temperature water, it will weigh less.
etc.

The density of water is what is changing with temp.
Hold the weight constant, and the volume changes.
Hold the volume constant, and the weight changes.

Bottom line, etching and sight gauge are both ways to measure volume, not weight.
I think we’re saying the same thing.

Right weight doesn't change with temp but volume does. Volume increases about 4% from room temp to boil. I don't know what temp they use to measure for the etching so I just assume room temp. If they use boiling, my etching would be off by even more (probably close to half gallon off).

what's the water displacement of your "probe, element, dip tube and false bottom"????
how on earth would any kettle manufacturer be able to account for all the different random crap we install.
if your kettle is consistently off by 0.25ga, i'd say it's actually very accurate

I don't know the exact figure but I can tell you it isn't a 1/4 gallon (read that as, the etchings are correct even with an empty kettle). I agree, they have no clue what we put into our kettle and I would be fine if it was consistently 1/4 gallon off but if you read my previous post I specifically say it isn't consistent. If it was, I would just subtract 1/4 gallon from the volume. With some markings being off, it is very annoying to figure out what is off and how much I actually have in the kettle.

You removed the part of his quote where he explicitly said his wasn't consistent and that he might have been fine if it had been.

There is very little water displacement from those parts, a HERMS coil is probably the only significant displacement part but you'd use a sight glass there. He is measuring after the 4 gallon mark anyway which means there shouldn't be any issues.

I'd say Spike was just lazy in their template, which really is a shame considering it isn't that hard to get right but is very hard to fix once it's wrong.

Exactly!

If I remember correctly, the markings we're off even with nothing in the kettle. I understand once we add an element, dip tube, etc the volume increases but the etchings should be correct with nothing in the kettle. Being off by a consistent volume would be fine. Having random markings off by different amounts makes it very hard to figure out what the volume really is.

I did email them and they said the etching comes from their OEM, which I assume means they buy their kettles made by another company who puts the etchings on. No matter which company put them in, they were lazy. The kettle dimensions don't change. It should be very easy to get the etchings right. My brew bucket etchings are spot on. It can obviously be done.

 

[jekeane]

All my sight glasses were off on the the V2 spike kettles. Initially was a problem because I was getting 4.75 gallons into the fermenter instead of my desired 5.25. First couple brew days I figured it was a new boil off rate issue but then realized it was the sight glasses.

Became a problem to recalibrate again when I switched to a blichmann mash tun whose sight glass was true.

I moved on to a blichmann boil kettle for most of my brewing as well but still use my spike hlt and have a spike 20g boil kettle both with painters tape reminding me that the readings are off on the sight glass.

 

[h22lude]

All my sight glasses were off on the the V2 spike kettles. Initially was a problem because I was getting 4.75 gallons into the fermenter instead of my desired 5.25. First couple brew days I figured it was a new boil off rate issue but then realized it was the sight glasses.

Became a problem to recalibrate again when I switched to a blichmann mash tun whose sight glass was true.

I moved on to a blichmann boil kettle for most of my brewing as well but still use my spike hlt and have a spike 20g boil kettle both with painters tape reminding me that the readings are off on the sight glass.

To me, that is very frustrating. You paid good money for those kettles. They aren't cheap. If Blichmann can accurately mark the volumes, so can Spike. Some people may think I'm being too picky but i expect a higher level of craftsmanship when paying a higher price tag.

I may remove the etchings and go with a sight gauge from Bobby. That's what I had on my last kettle and I marked them myself. I just wish I knew so I could have had Spike put another TC port on for me.

 

[jekeane]

I am at the point where my volumes are set in my software so I only have to think about it on that one kettle for my preboil volume. It did make figuring out my initial volumes for the software a bit of a pain and I agree it's something that shouldn't happen.

Repeatability is my overall goal and I think accurate volumes / weights are pretty key to that so I don't think asking for accuracy is being to picky.

I do love all the look and feel of spikes welding and found value in that. Although none of my weld-less fittings have had an issue.

 

[h22lude]

What is making this a little tricky for me is I changed my process and bought the kettle at the same time. My grain absorption and boil off has changed. It will take a few batches to get back to the repeatability of my last kettle.

I agree. It would be the same situation if a scale was off by 2.5%. Some people would be ok with that but I wouldn't be. To me part of the fun is trying to get as close to my volume and gravity figures as possible. I brewed yesterday and finally goty preboil and post boil gravities to be exactly what I estimated. Typically I'm off by 2 or 3 points which is still good but getting them both spot on was great.

My weldless kettle worked fine. I went with Spike to remove the threads and for a good quality kettle. The welds are perfect and the kettle is great quality. I still think it is worth the money.

 

[postalbunny]

That's interesting... i just finished setting up my new herms hlt and boil kettle.

boil kettle -> i have noticed that with two elements, 1/2 RTD probe, a whirlpool port, and a pickup tube that my 20g kettle the markings inside are spot-on. However; the sightglass etchings were off by 1/2 gal.

My HLT which has two elements, center pickup tube, a 1/2 RTD probe, and a 14" coil... the markings were considerably off at various amounts (due to the coil only being in the middle).

However; i hadn't noticed too much as I knew my markings would be off and they would have no way to know the displacement of my gear so i went into this knowing i'd be measuring/marking the sight glasses. I ordered some of Bobby's vinyln decals and measured 1 gallon at a time marking off as I went.

Thinking back, it may have been easier to if had found a scale that could weigh the 20g. I could have just filled it up and opened the valve tp dump water until it met the next mark instead of bucketing water into the kettle one gal at at ime.

 

[wepeeler]

Finally made the switch to All Grain (BIAB) last night. Picked up a 15 gallon SS Brew Tech kettle and decided to boil 5 gallons the night prior to determine boil off rate. Etchings on it are off 1/2 gallon as well. I emailed them, but haven't heard back yet. This isn't the end of the world, as I know the exact volume I put into the kettle, but its frustrating to know that a nearly $300 piece of equipment isn't accurate. It literally only has a few jobs, and one of them is to accurately measure volume. Just saying...

 

[Gadjobrinus]

That's a bummer, especially when you're just coming into all grain, wepeeler. Enough variables to worry about and I agree with you - this shouldn't be happening on a $300 vessel. I'm not sure what's being done but I suspect - many with more experience will hopefully chime in, perhaps you know - that this is a mass manufacturing issue offshore, and it's just screwed up manufacturing. They're good guys and I stand by their welding and their end, but as a company, they shouldn't be putting up with this either - on behelf of us, and them, in their reputation.

Maybe try giving them a call?

 

[h22lude]

That's a bummer, especially when you're just coming into all grain, wepeeler. Enough variables to worry about and I agree with you - this shouldn't be happening on a $300 vessel. I'm not sure what's being done but I suspect - many with more experience will hopefully chime in, perhaps you know - that this is a mass manufacturing issue offshore, and it's just screwed up manufacturing. They're good guys and I stand by their welding and their end, but as a company, they shouldn't be putting up with this either - on behelf of us, and them, in their reputation.

Maybe try giving them a call?

The etchings are put on by the kettle manufacturer (which is a Chinese company). If I were selling custom kettles for $300+, I would want my customers to have accurate etchings. I expect etching to be off on a $50 kettle. Not $300+. I haven't done anything to fix mine. I still love the kettle. The welding is top notch. But I am still annoyed the etching is off.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

The etchings are put on by the kettle manufacturer (which is a Chinese company). If I were selling custom kettles for $300+, I would want my customers to have accurate etchings. I expect etching to be off on a $50 kettle. Not $300+. I haven't done anything to fix mine. I still love the kettle. The welding is top notch. But I am still annoyed the etching is off.

Yeah, I agree with you. I marked up the sightglasses on my BK and HLT, and don't really care as much on my HLT, which only has the etchings. I acidify the liquor in the HLT based on what I know I added.

I do really like these guys and, like you, find the welding absolutely beautiful. But it's inexcusable, at $300, to have volume off by so wide a margin even though I've just kind of learned to deal with it. And surely this manufacturing screwup has been known now for some time.

 

[wepeeler]

That's a bummer, especially when you're just coming into all grain, wepeeler. Enough variables to worry about and I agree with you - this shouldn't be happening on a $300 vessel. I'm not sure what's being done but I suspect - many with more experience will hopefully chime in, perhaps you know - that this is a mass manufacturing issue offshore, and it's just screwed up manufacturing. They're good guys and I stand by their welding and their end, but as a company, they shouldn't be putting up with this either - on behelf of us, and them, in their reputation.

Maybe try giving them a call?

Like I said, it's not a HUGE deal, because I measure out exactly what goes into the kettle, but for the price, it should be accurate. I posted more to follow up on the OP and to see if other people experienced this with SS. I've been told awhile back that they had some issues with the markings but was assured they fixed the problem. Apparently not. Still waiting on a return email. Doesn't seem to be a phone number anywhere on their website...

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Like I said, it's not a HUGE deal, because I measure out exactly what goes into the kettle, but for the price, it should be accurate. I posted more to follow up on the OP and to see if other people experienced this with SS. I've been told awhile back that they had some issues with the markings but was assured they fixed the problem. Apparently not. Still waiting on a return email. Doesn't seem to be a phone number anywhere on their website...

Wepeeler, sorry about that, I thought there was a number either on their site or with their e-mails, but I stand corrected. I just have e-mails as well, including the invoices they submit when you're ready to buy. In my experience, they were good in getting back to me, so hopefully you'l hear soon. Good luck.

 

[SpikeBrewing]

For the record this looks to be an issue with another company’s kettle and not a Spike kettle. Since this issue was brought to our attention last year we have updated our on site QC procedure to ensure etching accuracy.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

For the record this looks to be an issue with another company’s kettle and not a Spike kettle. Since this issue was brought to our attention last year we have updated our on site QC procedure to ensure etching accuracy.

Sorry, a bit confused, guys. I'd thought all your vessels were bought from a 3rd party manufacturer, they did the volume etchings, and you guys finished the vessels with your (beautiful) welding. I guess I am confused between what is "another company's kettle" and a "Spike kettle."

 

[SpikeBrewing]

Finally made the switch to All Grain (BIAB) last night. Picked up a 15 gallon SS Brew Tech kettle and decided to boil 5 gallons the night prior to determine boil off rate. Etchings on it are off 1/2 gallon as well. I emailed them, but haven't heard back yet. This isn't the end of the world, as I know the exact volume I put into the kettle, but its frustrating to know that a nearly $300 piece of equipment isn't accurate. It literally only has a few jobs, and one of them is to accurately measure volume. Just saying...

Sorry, a bit confused, guys. I'd thought all your vessels were bought from a 3rd party manufacturer, they did the volume etchings, and you guys finished the vessels with your (beautiful) welding. I guess I am confused between what is "another company's kettle" and a "Spike kettle."

The issue that revived this thread was with an Ss Brew Tech kettle not a Spike kettle. We have not seen any etching issues in about 6mo.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I apologize. As the thread is about your vessels I just completely spaced he was talking about BrewTech. I'm glad you guys got the manufacturing issue resolved, because you do such top-shelf work and this issue sullied it some, imo.

 

[wepeeler]

The issue that revived this thread was with an Ss Brew Tech kettle not a Spike kettle. We have not seen any etching issues in about 6mo.

I should have gotten a Spike kettle. Didn't even know about you guys

 

[h22lude]

For the record this looks to be an issue with another company’s kettle and not a Spike kettle. Since this issue was brought to our attention last year we have updated our on site QC procedure to ensure etching accuracy.

This is great to hear. Thanks for chiming in. I am going to put an edit on my original post just letting people know QC has been taking action.

Edit: Looks like I can't edit my original posts. Might be an issue with HBT not allowing edits after a certain amount of months.

 

[wepeeler]

Wepeeler, sorry about that, I thought there was a number either on their site or with their e-mails, but I stand corrected. I just have e-mails as well, including the invoices they submit when you're ready to buy. In my experience, they were good in getting back to me, so hopefully you'l hear soon. Good luck.

Emailed them last Friday. Got a response Monoday asking for a picture with a tape measure along the inside of the kettle over the etchings. Sent the picture back Monday. No response. Emailed them a reminder with the picture yesterday (Tuesday). No response. Can't say I'm digging my SS experience...

*Update*
Great customer service. Seriously. The guy I had been emailing was talking over my situation with his QC team. They decided they would either offer me a $50 refund to keep the kettle or swap out for a new one. They even shipped the new kettle without me first returning the defective one! I offered my credit card as collateral and they told me, "we trust you here." Word. Quality customer service right there.

 

[augiedoggy]

Emailed them last Friday. Got a response Monoday asking for a picture with a tape measure along the inside of the kettle over the etchings. Sent the picture back Monday. No response. Emailed them a reminder with the picture yesterday (Tuesday). No response. Can't say I'm digging my SS experience...

*Update*
Great customer service. Seriously. The guy I had been emailing was talking over my situation with his QC team. They decided they would either offer me a $50 refund to keep the kettle or swap out for a new one. They even shipped the new kettle without me first returning the defective one! I offered my credit card as collateral and they told me, "we trust you here." Word. Quality customer service right there.

You can bet this thread and others like it likely had some influence on that..

 

[bbohanon]

All I can say is I love my Spike CF15. Great company and quality.

 

[augiedoggy]

I apologize. As the thread is about your vessels I just completely spaced he was talking about BrewTech. I'm glad you guys got the manufacturing issue resolved, because you do such top-shelf work and this issue sullied it some, imo.

Curious, Did you buy your kettles last year then and just get around to using them? I thought you just discovered this issue?

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Curious, Did you buy your kettles last year then and just get around to using them? I thought you just discovered this issue?

I'm sorry, Augie, I have a bad memory so can't recall when I got them. Certainly several months now and no, I used them right away. I measured them well before my first brew and discovered the variances off, then marked the sight glasses by pouring in gallon by gallon.

 

[wepeeler]

You can bet this thread and others like it likely had some influence on that..

Word of mouth can be a killer or a game changer.

 

[brewbama]

For what it’s worth, I have a kettle from another mfr and either the marks are slightly off or the gallon containers of water I’ve been using have more than a gallon in them. I usually end with slightly more volume per the kettle marking than intended. I use the markings as an indicator vs a verbatim volume mark.