Spike etching is off

[h22lude]

They shoot for 2.5%? Or 25%?

2.5% at full volume. I don't think the pot size matters for the percentage but obviously the smaller the pot, the greater the error can be. I have a 15 gallon pot so my error is under their tolerance.

 

[augiedoggy]

I realize a quart is a lot (if im understanding .25 correctly?) But the reality is they would be off in just about every homebrewery unless the measurements are added after whatever hardware it being used inside of the kettles and displaces that liquid including ball valves and even hops and resulting trub.... I have found the embossed markings in my 16 gallon bayou classic kettles also dont match up with my sight glass readings but since they only cost me $125 each im not upset about it...

 

[triethylborane]

I realize a quart is a lot (if im understanding .25 correctly?) But the reality is they would be off in just about every homebrewery unless the measurements are added after whatever hardware it being used inside of the kettles and displaces that liquid including ball valves and even hops and resulting trub.... I have found the embossed markings in my 16 gallon bayou classic kettles also dont match up with my sight glass readings but since they only cost me $125 each im not upset about it...

True, though it would be helpful if they gave the tolerance info on their website. +/-2.5% at full volume, no attachments.

 

[h22lude]

I realize a quart is a lot (if im understanding .25 correctly?) But the reality is they would be off in just about every homebrewery unless the measurements are added after whatever hardware it being used inside of the kettles and displaces that liquid including ball valves and even hops and resulting trub.... I have found the embossed markings in my 16 gallon bayou classic kettles also dont match up with my sight glass readings but since they only cost me $125 each im not upset about it...

Yup, 1 quart.

Yeah I understand everyone has different parts in their kettles that will increase the volume but this quart is off with nothing in the kettle. I would think this would be correct and the error would be when adding anything to the kettle like an element or false bottom.

True, though it would be helpful if they gave the tolerance info on their website. +/-2.5% at full volume, no attachments.

Exactly. If I saw something like this on their site, I wouldn't have gotten the etching. I probably would have added another TC port (more money for them) and used a sight gauge.

 

[augiedoggy]

Well one good option would be to rmove them or at least remove the lines and add new ones. The etchings are pretty easy to remove with a little BKF and theres a tutorial here on how to add new ones using a 9v battery...

 

[h22lude]

Well one good option would be to rmove them or at least remove the lines and add new ones. The etchings are pretty easy to remove with a little BKF and theres a tutorial here on how to add new ones using a 9v battery...

Yeah I think I might try that. I read the tutorial the other day.

 

[Sconnie12]

Out of curiosity I filled my SS kettle up with .25gal of water. Below are the results. It really makes me scratch my head to what the heck you guys are talking about. The depth of the water is maybe a 1/8" deep and this is only a 10gal kettle. How would this little amount in any way ever affect your brewing?! :smack::smack: I lose more than this switching hoses during a brew day.

I was going to fill up to 2 gallons and see how the SS stacks up but realized it doesn't matter and would be a complete waste of time....

 

[schematix]

Out of curiosity I filled my SS kettle up with .25gal of water. Below are the results. It really makes me scratch my head to what the heck you guys are talking about. The depth of the water is maybe a 1/8" deep and this is only a 10gal kettle. How would this little amount in any way ever affect your brewing?! :smack::smack: I lose more than this switching hoses during a brew day.

I was going to fill up to 2 gallons and see how the SS stacks up but realized it doesn't matter and would be a complete waste of time....

what is that fitting in the picture? pick-up tube?

I had a day dream today using something like that for a simple whirlpool arm...

 

[Singletrack]

In general, volume markings on brewing equipment should be taken with a block of salt (aren't accurate). The same is true of cooking equipment. When I first started brewing, I acid-etched volume markings on my glass carboys by carefully measuring volume with a 2 quart measuring cup. Then, after the etching, I bought a good scale and decided to check volumes by weight, after adjusting water density in accordance with actual water temperature. Damn! My measurements were off. But what to do about it? Soon after, I bought a 16 gal BK, and the volume markings on the BK matched my carboy markings perfectly. (Both were "off" of course.) So, I decided to define my own volume units (bat-gal) that match my BK, and I brew by these units. If I get a recipe in real gal, I just convert to bat-gal. I use my own brewing software, so I can do whatever I want, including deciding my own units of measurement. You can too. Use your own numbering system to mark your equipment. Define a time measurement system with unequal increments between units to shorten the brew day -- or lengthen it, if you prefer. You are the brewer, and you are in charge. Take charge.


Also, you could just remove the etchings and add your own in real gal. Too much "charge" isn't for everyone.

 

[h22lude]

Out of curiosity I filled my SS kettle up with .25gal of water. Below are the results. It really makes me scratch my head to what the heck you guys are talking about. The depth of the water is maybe a 1/8" deep and this is only a 10gal kettle. How would this little amount in any way ever affect your brewing?! :smack::smack: I lose more than this switching hoses during a brew day.

I was going to fill up to 2 gallons and see how the SS stacks up but realized it doesn't matter and would be a complete waste of time....

If I had to guess, you don't measure correctly. I have a 15 gallon pot and my 1/4 gallon marks are about 1/2". You saying you lose a quart to tubing confirms this.

I'm glad you don't find 1/4 gallon to be anything to worry about. If you find it a complete waste of time, why are you in this thread. Next time, just skip over it and don't post anything in it.

In general, volume markings on brewing equipment should be taken with a block of salt (aren't accurate). The same is true of cooking equipment. When I first started brewing, I acid-etched volume markings on my glass carboys by carefully measuring volume with a 2 quart measuring cup. Then, after the etching, I bought a good scale and decided to check volumes by weight, after adjusting water density in accordance with actual water temperature. Damn! My measurements were off. But what to do about it? Soon after, I bought a 16 gal BK, and the volume markings on the BK matched my carboy markings perfectly. (Both were "off" of course.) So, I decided to define my own volume units (bat-gal) that match my BK, and I brew by these units. If I get a recipe in real gal, I just convert to bat-gal. I use my own brewing software, so I can do whatever I want, including deciding my own units of measurement. You can too. Use your own numbering system to mark your equipment. Define a time measurement system with unequal increments between units to shorten the brew day -- or lengthen it, if you prefer. You are the brewer, and you are in charge. Take charge.


Also, you could just remove the etchings and add your own in real gal. Too much "charge" isn't for everyone.

When I first started brewing I checked my bucket using a 2 cup measuring cup. The markings were way off. Well I figured out that even if the measuring cup is accurate, your eyes aren't. Even the smallest amount off each 2 cups adds up over time in 5 gallons. That is why I started measuring my water at room temp. Everything else I have has been measured using weight and is correct which is why I would have liked this to match. Overall, 1/4 gallon off isn't bad. I just wish they mentioned it would be off when I bought it.

I may redo it at some point.

And just to be clear, yes I am OCD about my measurements being spot on. I like being as accurate as possible. It may not affect anything but I like doing it. I'm not so much upset that the etching is off because I can fix it. I'm more upset that they know it will be off and don't tell customers. They obviously have a standard in place that gives them +/- 2.5% error which means they know it is going to be off.

 

[auburntsts]

. I just wish they mentioned it would be off when I bought it.

Don't have a dog in this fight, but do any of the other kettle brands list the tolerances of their internal volume markings on their websites? Also what's the industry avg tolerance for these type of markings and how critical is it to the brew that it be as accurate as possible? Finally since the etchings are standard and not an add-on, if you had known what the tolerance was and asked for no etching, would you have received a discount? If so how much?

Just trying to understand the issue as I gather info on building my own 3-vessel AG system.

 

[h22lude]

Don't have a dog in this fight, but do any of the other kettle brands list the tolerances of their internal volume markings on their websites? Also what's the industry avg tolerance for these type of markings and how critical is it to the brew that it be as accurate as possible? Finally since the etchings are standard and not an add-on, if you had known what the tolerance was and asked for no etching, would you have received a discount? If so how much?

Just trying to understand the issue as I gather info on building my own 3-vessel AG system.

Honestly, I don't know much about anything for other companies. I don't know if anyone lists it or not. I don't know if there is an industry standard. I just know about Spike since I bought from them and have first hand experience. If it were my website, I'd include that in the order page just so customers know. Anytime a product has an error range, I would think it would be smart to let the customer know.

Is 1/4 gallon critical to your set up? Overall, 1/4 gallon won't do much to change the beer. I personally just like to be as spot on as possible. I don't think being this anal about it makes better beer, I just like being exact with measurements. If it started to get to 1/2 gallon and more, then it may start to affect gravity which I think is possible with their 2.5% error range.

The etching is free so I don't think you would get a discount if you didn't get it. To me, it wasn't about getting a discount. I would have just gone a different direction (either added another port for a sight gauge or had a clean kettle and etched it myself).

 

[h22lude]

I just remeasured the etching.

I started actually looking at 4 gallons since I really don't use anything less than that.

4 gallons of water by weight (3785 grams) was 4.25 gallons in the kettle with my probe, element, dip tube and false bottom.
5 gallons of water was 5.25 gallons in the kettle
6 gallons of water was 6.25 gallons in the kettle
7 gallons of water was almost 7.5 (maybe 7.45) gallons in the kettle
8 gallons of water was 8.25 gallons in the kettle
9 gallons of water was 9.35 (between 9.25 and 9.5) gallons in the kettle

The parts in the kettle don't add .25 gallons but I'm ok with it being at .25. It actually makes it easy since it is pretty much right on the 1/4 gallon mark. What really pisses me off is the 9 gallon mark is off and the 7 gallon mark is even more off. If everything was .25 gallons off, it wouldn't be a big issue.

By no means am I saying Spike is a bad company. The welding on the TC ports are the best I have seen. The customer service is great. I just wish I knew the etchings would be off and even more important I wish I knew each gallon could be off from the next. I don't buy into the industry error standard. I just measured my Brew Bucket which has factory etching and every gallon and half gallon was spot on.

 

[MaryB]

RDWHAHB sheesh, 1/4 gallon is NOT going to make a difference in the long run!

 

[h22lude]

RDWHAHB sheesh, 1/4 gallon is NOT going to make a difference in the long run!

I don't know about you but when I pay close to $400 for a product, I want it to be perfect especially when part of that product is used for measuring. You may not care about being off 1/4 to 1/2 gallon but I do and I'm sure there are others that feel the same....which is why I posted this. I want those people that do care to be able to read this. Like I said, I'm not saying the quality of the kettle is bad. I just wish I knew the markings would be off as I wouldn't have gotten them. Some people like to be exact with their measurements. Others (like yourself) don't care as much.

 

[FunkedOut]

if you’re going to rely on weight for your water measurements, you should probably do so exclusively; not practical for a brew day.

your base lining of the kettle markings is missing temperature information.
A US gallon weighs ~3785 grams at 32*F.
Less at room temp, RI.
Even less at room temp, FL.
Even Less at mash temps.
Even less at boiling.

I guess I’m recommending to simply find a method that is practical for your brew day.
For me that means, getting close enough after mash, and after boil.
I trust the kettle markings to fill the pot, measure pre boil after mash and measure the wort after I remove the immersion chiller.

I did get lucky enough that my markings agree with a quart measuring cup from the kitchen.
Because of this thread, I decided to weigh what that quart measuring cup says is 32oz at room temp. It’s so far off of the 3785g, that weighing a pot with gallons of what is not worthwhile.

Doing it the other way gives repeatability, simplicity and accuracy.
I alway hit estimated volumes and gravitates within a few points.
Usually right on.

While I care about accuracy, I can honestly say that the weight of my water/wort/beer doesn’t seem to make a difference in the process or the finished beer. So I don’t care about the weight/density; just the volume it occupies.

 

[h22lude]

The weight of water doesn't change with temp. That is why it is more accurate to use for measuring. Well let me clarify, the weight of water does change but it is so small we wouldn't be able to measure it with any of the cheapo home scales. You would need a lab scale to measure the change. And I think you have it backwards. Boiling water weights more than cold water. But again, with just a gram scale we wouldn't see the difference.

For me, the most practical during brew day is either etching or sight gauge. This is why I wanted to calibrate the etchings, so I could use them on brew day. I use them to measure my strike water, preboil and post boil to make sure everything is going smooth.

 

[FunkedOut]

You’re right, the weight of a fixed amount of water doesn’t change with temp; it’s volume does.

I guess I could’ve phrased my last post better.
What I was trying to say is that if you take a container with a “1 US gallon” mark, you fill it with enough water until the water level hits that mark.
If you fill it with 32*F water, the water that container holds will weigh 3785 grams.
If you fill it to the same mark with room temperature water, it will weigh less.
etc.

The density of water is what is changing with temp.
Hold the weight constant, and the volume changes.
Hold the volume constant, and the weight changes.

Bottom line, etching and sight gauge are both ways to measure volume, not weight.
I think we’re saying the same thing.

 

[staticfritz]

4 gallons of water by weight (3785 grams) was 4.25 gallons in the kettle with my probe, element, dip tube and false bottom.

what's the water displacement of your "probe, element, dip tube and false bottom"????
how on earth would any kettle manufacturer be able to account for all the different random crap we install.
if your kettle is consistently off by 0.25ga, i'd say it's actually very accurate

 

[aeviaanah]

What's the water displacement of your "probe, element, dip tube and false bottom"????

How on earth would any kettle manufacturer be able to account for all the different random crap we install.

If your kettle is consistently off by 0.25ga, i'd say it's actually very accurate

+1

 

[BeardedBrews]

what's the water displacement of your "probe, element, dip tube and false bottom"????
how on earth would any kettle manufacturer be able to account for all the different random crap we install.
if your kettle is consistently off by 0.25ga, i'd say it's actually very accurate

You removed the part of his quote where he explicitly said his wasn't consistent and that he might have been fine if it had been.

There is very little water displacement from those parts, a HERMS coil is probably the only significant displacement part but you'd use a sight glass there. He is measuring after the 4 gallon mark anyway which means there shouldn't be any issues.

I'd say Spike was just lazy in their template, which really is a shame considering it isn't that hard to get right but is very hard to fix once it's wrong.

 

[h22lude]

You’re right, the weight of a fixed amount of water doesn’t change with temp; it’s volume does.

I guess I could’ve phrased my last post better.
What I was trying to say is that if you take a container with a “1 US gallon” mark, you fill it with enough water until the water level hits that mark.
If you fill it with 32*F water, the water that container holds will weigh 3785 grams.
If you fill it to the same mark with room temperature water, it will weigh less.
etc.

The density of water is what is changing with temp.
Hold the weight constant, and the volume changes.
Hold the volume constant, and the weight changes.

Bottom line, etching and sight gauge are both ways to measure volume, not weight.
I think we’re saying the same thing.

Right weight doesn't change with temp but volume does. Volume increases about 4% from room temp to boil. I don't know what temp they use to measure for the etching so I just assume room temp. If they use boiling, my etching would be off by even more (probably close to half gallon off).

what's the water displacement of your "probe, element, dip tube and false bottom"????
how on earth would any kettle manufacturer be able to account for all the different random crap we install.
if your kettle is consistently off by 0.25ga, i'd say it's actually very accurate

I don't know the exact figure but I can tell you it isn't a 1/4 gallon (read that as, the etchings are correct even with an empty kettle). I agree, they have no clue what we put into our kettle and I would be fine if it was consistently 1/4 gallon off but if you read my previous post I specifically say it isn't consistent. If it was, I would just subtract 1/4 gallon from the volume. With some markings being off, it is very annoying to figure out what is off and how much I actually have in the kettle.

You removed the part of his quote where he explicitly said his wasn't consistent and that he might have been fine if it had been.

There is very little water displacement from those parts, a HERMS coil is probably the only significant displacement part but you'd use a sight glass there. He is measuring after the 4 gallon mark anyway which means there shouldn't be any issues.

I'd say Spike was just lazy in their template, which really is a shame considering it isn't that hard to get right but is very hard to fix once it's wrong.

Exactly!

If I remember correctly, the markings we're off even with nothing in the kettle. I understand once we add an element, dip tube, etc the volume increases but the etchings should be correct with nothing in the kettle. Being off by a consistent volume would be fine. Having random markings off by different amounts makes it very hard to figure out what the volume really is.

I did email them and they said the etching comes from their OEM, which I assume means they buy their kettles made by another company who puts the etchings on. No matter which company put them in, they were lazy. The kettle dimensions don't change. It should be very easy to get the etchings right. My brew bucket etchings are spot on. It can obviously be done.

 

[jekeane]

All my sight glasses were off on the the V2 spike kettles. Initially was a problem because I was getting 4.75 gallons into the fermenter instead of my desired 5.25. First couple brew days I figured it was a new boil off rate issue but then realized it was the sight glasses.

Became a problem to recalibrate again when I switched to a blichmann mash tun whose sight glass was true.

I moved on to a blichmann boil kettle for most of my brewing as well but still use my spike hlt and have a spike 20g boil kettle both with painters tape reminding me that the readings are off on the sight glass.

 

[h22lude]

All my sight glasses were off on the the V2 spike kettles. Initially was a problem because I was getting 4.75 gallons into the fermenter instead of my desired 5.25. First couple brew days I figured it was a new boil off rate issue but then realized it was the sight glasses.

Became a problem to recalibrate again when I switched to a blichmann mash tun whose sight glass was true.

I moved on to a blichmann boil kettle for most of my brewing as well but still use my spike hlt and have a spike 20g boil kettle both with painters tape reminding me that the readings are off on the sight glass.

To me, that is very frustrating. You paid good money for those kettles. They aren't cheap. If Blichmann can accurately mark the volumes, so can Spike. Some people may think I'm being too picky but i expect a higher level of craftsmanship when paying a higher price tag.

I may remove the etchings and go with a sight gauge from Bobby. That's what I had on my last kettle and I marked them myself. I just wish I knew so I could have had Spike put another TC port on for me.

 

[jekeane]

I am at the point where my volumes are set in my software so I only have to think about it on that one kettle for my preboil volume. It did make figuring out my initial volumes for the software a bit of a pain and I agree it's something that shouldn't happen.

Repeatability is my overall goal and I think accurate volumes / weights are pretty key to that so I don't think asking for accuracy is being to picky.

I do love all the look and feel of spikes welding and found value in that. Although none of my weld-less fittings have had an issue.

 

[h22lude]

What is making this a little tricky for me is I changed my process and bought the kettle at the same time. My grain absorption and boil off has changed. It will take a few batches to get back to the repeatability of my last kettle.

I agree. It would be the same situation if a scale was off by 2.5%. Some people would be ok with that but I wouldn't be. To me part of the fun is trying to get as close to my volume and gravity figures as possible. I brewed yesterday and finally goty preboil and post boil gravities to be exactly what I estimated. Typically I'm off by 2 or 3 points which is still good but getting them both spot on was great.

My weldless kettle worked fine. I went with Spike to remove the threads and for a good quality kettle. The welds are perfect and the kettle is great quality. I still think it is worth the money.

 

[postalbunny]

That's interesting... i just finished setting up my new herms hlt and boil kettle.

boil kettle -> i have noticed that with two elements, 1/2 RTD probe, a whirlpool port, and a pickup tube that my 20g kettle the markings inside are spot-on. However; the sightglass etchings were off by 1/2 gal.

My HLT which has two elements, center pickup tube, a 1/2 RTD probe, and a 14" coil... the markings were considerably off at various amounts (due to the coil only being in the middle).

However; i hadn't noticed too much as I knew my markings would be off and they would have no way to know the displacement of my gear so i went into this knowing i'd be measuring/marking the sight glasses. I ordered some of Bobby's vinyln decals and measured 1 gallon at a time marking off as I went.

Thinking back, it may have been easier to if had found a scale that could weigh the 20g. I could have just filled it up and opened the valve tp dump water until it met the next mark instead of bucketing water into the kettle one gal at at ime.

 

[wepeeler]

Finally made the switch to All Grain (BIAB) last night. Picked up a 15 gallon SS Brew Tech kettle and decided to boil 5 gallons the night prior to determine boil off rate. Etchings on it are off 1/2 gallon as well. I emailed them, but haven't heard back yet. This isn't the end of the world, as I know the exact volume I put into the kettle, but its frustrating to know that a nearly $300 piece of equipment isn't accurate. It literally only has a few jobs, and one of them is to accurately measure volume. Just saying...

 

[user 246304]

That's a bummer, especially when you're just coming into all grain, wepeeler. Enough variables to worry about and I agree with you - this shouldn't be happening on a $300 vessel. I'm not sure what's being done but I suspect - many with more experience will hopefully chime in, perhaps you know - that this is a mass manufacturing issue offshore, and it's just screwed up manufacturing. They're good guys and I stand by their welding and their end, but as a company, they shouldn't be putting up with this either - on behelf of us, and them, in their reputation.

Maybe try giving them a call?

 

[h22lude]

That's a bummer, especially when you're just coming into all grain, wepeeler. Enough variables to worry about and I agree with you - this shouldn't be happening on a $300 vessel. I'm not sure what's being done but I suspect - many with more experience will hopefully chime in, perhaps you know - that this is a mass manufacturing issue offshore, and it's just screwed up manufacturing. They're good guys and I stand by their welding and their end, but as a company, they shouldn't be putting up with this either - on behelf of us, and them, in their reputation.

Maybe try giving them a call?

The etchings are put on by the kettle manufacturer (which is a Chinese company). If I were selling custom kettles for $300+, I would want my customers to have accurate etchings. I expect etching to be off on a $50 kettle. Not $300+. I haven't done anything to fix mine. I still love the kettle. The welding is top notch. But I am still annoyed the etching is off.