Spike Conical- observations and best practices

[Blazinlow86]

I've got the barb but still made a pretty spectacular mess trying to dump under 15 PSI. Perhaps just cracking the butterfly valve is the key...go slow. Still going to reduce pressure next time I try this. I am really impressed by how cold I can crash in the freezer. 28.5 F is very doable and I believe the data says is as effective as a week or more at 35 F.

I've been reading some different boards today and think I will try doing a cool crash after diacetyl rest to floc the majority of the yeast. Then dump/harvest the yeast (I rarely use yeast other than US-05 these days), and then warm the beer back up to mid 60s for dry hopping. Then I will cold crash that down to sub 30F remove the hops and then finally carbonate and keg.

When you do the dump use a long hose and just crack the valve the tiniest amount. On mine if I'm remembering correctly even the first notch open on the valve is to much. If you do blow thru the cone just stop and wait a day to try again. Cheers

 

[HB2 HughBHomeBrew]

Have had a CF5 for about 9 months now and think it’s great; about 15 batches done. Would like to step things up with temp control for lagering, cold crashing etc. (so far “temp control” has just been keeping it inside where A/C is set to 68. Heat not really an issue here most of the year plus it stays inside. Planning to get TC from Spike without the heater part and the smallest Penguin chiller 1/3 HP.
Any comments/suggestions on that plan? I have looked at the great DIY chiller threads but am not going to try that. Also a basic question - good place to order the glycol? And the ratio of water to glycol? Penguin site says 50/50.

 

[Beardless]

I paid extra for the racking arm....
(Thought it was time to lighten things up)…..

View attachment 652082

That’s a beautiful racking arm.

 

[Beardless]

Have had a CF5 for about 9 months now and think it’s great; about 15 batches done. Would like to step things up with temp control for lagering, cold crashing etc. (so far “temp control” has just been keeping it inside where A/C is set to 68. Heat not really an issue here most of the year plus it stays inside. Planning to get TC from Spike without the heater part and the smallest Penguin chiller 1/3 HP.
Any comments/suggestions on that plan? I have looked at the great DIY chiller threads but am not going to try that. Also a basic question - good place to order the glycol? And the ratio of water to glycol? Penguin site says 50/50.

I bought everything without the heater and then grabbed the heater later so I could more efficiently raise temperature. Really depends on your situation. I ordered food grade glycol from amazon. If no one answers the ratio question I will look on the bottle (it said the recommendation on there) when I wake up.

 

[CodeSection]

Have had a CF5 for about 9 months now and think it’s great; about 15 batches done. Would like to step things up with temp control for lagering, cold crashing etc. (so far “temp control” has just been keeping it inside where A/C is set to 68. Heat not really an issue here most of the year plus it stays inside. Planning to get TC from Spike without the heater part and the smallest Penguin chiller 1/3 HP.
Any comments/suggestions on that plan? I have looked at the great DIY chiller threads but am not going to try that. Also a basic question - good place to order the glycol? And the ratio of water to glycol? Penguin site says 50/50.

There are members here that own a Penguin and from what I have read, they have had difficulty in reaching a lower crash temp. They have been getting 38F-40F. I own an IceMaster 100 and have been successful in reaching 36F. In AZ it is warm. The IceMaster 100 holds 8 gallons in its reservoir and the Penguin only holds 1.25 gallons in its reservoir. I suspect the recovery time in the Penguin contributes to why individuals may not be reaching their desired crashing temp.

I find it interesting that Penguin recommends a 50/50 split as a search on Google finds many listings that show that concentration is not needed. Here is a link that might be helpful https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propylene-glycol-d_363.html

Links on where to buy: https://www.morebeer.com/products/icemaster-100-glycol-chiller-stainless-bulkheads.html, https://www.morebeer.com/products/propylene-glycol-gal.html

 

[mongoose33]

Have had a CF5 for about 9 months now and think it’s great; about 15 batches done. Would like to step things up with temp control for lagering, cold crashing etc. (so far “temp control” has just been keeping it inside where A/C is set to 68. Heat not really an issue here most of the year plus it stays inside. Planning to get TC from Spike without the heater part and the smallest Penguin chiller 1/3 HP.
Any comments/suggestions on that plan? I have looked at the great DIY chiller threads but am not going to try that. Also a basic question - good place to order the glycol? And the ratio of water to glycol? Penguin site says 50/50.

I get my glycol here: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MS8F1UW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

You'll be happy with the setup. Do realize that the penguin will throw off some heat, just as an air conditioner does, so if you're in an enclosed space, things may warm up.

Also--I agree with @Beardless about the heater. Yeah, you may not need it, but you'll likely want it. Being able to control both cooling and heating has been important for me. I do an accelerated lager ferm schedule that has me doing half the fermentation at 50 degrees, then I ramp up 4 degrees every 12 hours to 66 to finish. Easy to control things like that. Ordering the heater now will save you shipping later. Also, I presume you're getting the neoprene sleeve? You'll want that, too.

 

[eric19312]

Have had a CF5 for about 9 months now and think it’s great; about 15 batches done. Would like to step things up with temp control for lagering, cold crashing etc. (so far “temp control” has just been keeping it inside where A/C is set to 68. Heat not really an issue here most of the year plus it stays inside. Planning to get TC from Spike without the heater part and the smallest Penguin chiller 1/3 HP.
Any comments/suggestions on that plan? I have looked at the great DIY chiller threads but am not going to try that. Also a basic question - good place to order the glycol? And the ratio of water to glycol? Penguin site says 50/50.

You have mere experience with the conical than me but after considering temp control options I decided main advantage of glycol system (vs chamber/fridge/freezer solution) was ability to maintain multiple conicals at different temps.

 

[itsnotrequired]

getting clear beer: the racking arm made a huge difference for me. my usual mo is to do a single dump before i cold crash, with a 2" tc to barb fitting on the dump valve. dump nice and slow, until it looks clear at the top of the sight glass, then crash. dumping after crash runs the risk of kicking up sediment.

penguin glycol: i found i couldn't get below 34 f or so with the chiller until i wrapped the entire conical in a blanket. now i can get down to 30, no problem. i have the neoprene jacket and while it looks nice and helps with condensation, it isn't that great of an insulator.

 

[logdrum]

Have had a CF5 for about 9 months now and think it’s great; about 15 batches done. Would like to step things up with temp control for lagering, cold crashing etc. (so far “temp control” has just been keeping it inside where A/C is set to 68. Heat not really an issue here most of the year plus it stays inside. Planning to get TC from Spike without the heater part and the smallest Penguin chiller 1/3 HP.
Any comments/suggestions on that plan? I have looked at the great DIY chiller threads but am not going to try that. Also a basic question - good place to order the glycol? And the ratio of water to glycol? Penguin site says 50/50.

I have that chiller & put 1/2 gal of glycol in the reservoir with the balance distilled water, probably close to 60:40 water to glycol.

getting clear beer: the racking arm made a huge difference for me. my usual mo is to do a single dump before i cold crash, with a 2" tc to barb fitting on the dump valve. dump nice and slow, until it looks clear at the top of the sight glass, then crash. dumping after crash runs the risk of kicking up sediment.

penguin glycol: i found i couldn't get below 34 f or so with the chiller until i wrapped the entire conical in a blanket. now i can get down to 30, no problem. i have the neoprene jacket and while it looks nice and helps with condensation, it isn't that great of an insulator.

Could you attach a photo?

 

[logdrum]

Have had a CF5 for about 9 months now and think it’s great; about 15 batches done. Would like to step things up with temp control for lagering, cold crashing etc. (so far “temp control” has just been keeping it inside where A/C is set to 68. Heat not really an issue here most of the year plus it stays inside. Planning to get TC from Spike without the heater part and the smallest Penguin chiller 1/3 HP.
Any comments/suggestions on that plan? I have looked at the great DIY chiller threads but am not going to try that. Also a basic question - good place to order the glycol? And the ratio of water to glycol? Penguin site says 50/50.

I put 1/2 gal of glycol in the reservoir & topped off w distilled water, probably close to 60:40 water:glycol. Glycol from Amazon

 

[Nate R]

Have had a CF5 for about 9 months now and think it’s great; about 15 batches done. Would like to step things up with temp control for lagering, cold crashing etc. (so far “temp control” has just been keeping it inside where A/C is set to 68. Heat not really an issue here most of the year plus it stays inside. Planning to get TC from Spike without the heater part and the smallest Penguin chiller 1/3 HP.
Any comments/suggestions on that plan? I have looked at the great DIY chiller threads but am not going to try that. Also a basic question - good place to order the glycol? And the ratio of water to glycol? Penguin site says 50/50.

Fwiw....
I have a cf5. Got the temp control package afterward. Did not get heater.
Wish i did get heater with it as mentioned above.

I have the penguin 1/3hp. It is a small size, but does have small footprint. It is a challange to get to 36. 39 to 40 is easy.
I do keep about a 5 degree diff on my penguin. i could set at 28 and probably do better.

Being so close to "black friday" sales you might want to wait for that. Also, look at the ss model. I kinda wish i went that route BUT the penguin is very compact and that fit my area best.

Ratio- for beer use you can probably get by with 25%.glycol. the 50/50 is like insurance to ensure nothing freezes. Best to go to 33% glycol, 67 distilled/ro water. You can top up with watet as you go.

 

[logdrum]

Fwiw....
I have a cf5. Got the temp control package afterward. Did not get heater.
Wish i did get heater with it as mentioned above.

I have the penguin 1/3hp. It is a small size, but does have small footprint. It is a challange to get to 36. 39 to 40 is easy.
I do keep about a 5 degree diff on my penguin. i could set at 28 and probably do better.

Being so close to "black friday" sales you might want to wait for that. Also, look at the ss model. I kinda wish i went that route BUT the penguin is very compact and that fit my area best.

Ratio- for beer use you can probably get by with 25%.glycol. the 50/50 is like insurance to ensure nothing freezes. Best to go to 33% glycol, 67 distilled/ro water. You can top up with watet as you go.

I put 1/2 gallon in so that I would have 2 full fills. I think there's a lot of wiggle room wrt to the ratio.

 

[HB2 HughBHomeBrew]

Fwiw....
I have a cf5. Got the temp control package afterward. Did not get heater.
Wish i did get heater with it as mentioned above.

Being so close to "black friday" sales you might want to wait for that. Also, look at the ss model. I kinda wish i went that route BUT the penguin is very compact and that fit my area best.
Ratio- for beer use you can probably get by with 25%.glycol. the 50/50 is like insurance to ensure nothing freezes. Best to go to 33% glycol, 67 distilled/ro water. You can top up with watet as you go.

Wait for Black Friday? Wait? What is this madness? I've already decided the next batch will be with the TC setup and I'm running a little low on Porter.

Thanks for all the great responses - I will probably get heater now from what you've said

 

[Gozie Boy]

Wait for Black Friday? Wait? What is this madness? I've already decided the next batch will be with the TC setup and I'm running a little low on Porter.

Thanks for all the great responses - I will probably get heater now from what you've said

+1 on the heater, especially as winter is upon us.

Also, I've had great performance with the Icemaster 100, and I think the larger reservoir helps to maintain a more consistent glycol temp. Achieved about 36-38F ferm temp this summer with a lager (ambient range was 75-85F). Icemaster recommends 20% PG, but this is too low, as I got a little ice formation when trying to get my temps down. The PG freeze point v temp curve shows that 30 - 33% should be plenty for our applications, and I will top off my reservoir with PG to get there. I was also using the tiny Spike pump that comes with the TC package (which is perfectly fine for ales), but will probably be replacing this with a larger capacity pump for my next application requiring maximum chilling, esp. when it gets warm again. [Glycol temp is not the issue, but translating that to the fermenter is less efficient than I'd like to see.] I'll also be looking to beef up my insulation beyond the neoprene jacket. I'd love to be able to achieve 30F.

 

[Jag75]

Right now my cf5 has about 11 psi and holding. My temp is 70f. If I drop the temp to say 55 and add co2 when the pressure drops back to about 11 will I get about 1.8 volumes? I figured I might have to add co2 a bit but it's been holding for about 4 days now .

 

[mongoose33]

Right now my cf5 has about 11 psi and holding. My temp is 70f. If I drop the temp to say 55 and add co2 when the pressure drops back to about 11 will I get about 1.8 volumes? I figured I might have to add co2 a bit but it's been holding for about 4 days now .

That's what the chart says:

 

[Jag75]

What I'm wanting is to carb my stout to about 1.8 while in my cf5 then keg and hook up right away to gas blend. I just wasnt sure if a fermenter had to have a constant co2 push or if I could use what the fermenter is building up to aid it.

I dont have a spunding valve

 

[Vale71]

What I'm wanting is to carb my stout to about 1.8 while in my cf5 then keg and hook up right away to gas blend. I just wasnt sure if a fermenter had to have a constant co2 push or if I could use what the fermenter is putting building up to aid it.

??? Maybe I'm particularly dense today but I didn't really understand the question?

 

[Jag75]

??? Maybe I'm particularly dense today but I didn't really understand the question?

Sorry I'm confusing with my excellent grammar lol. I dont have a spunding valve. I attached my gas manifold and have built up 11 psi . I was just curious if that build up would carb up the beer enough to get to 1.8 volumes . I see you guys talking about spunding valves and carb stones . I dont have those . I just didnt know if I could carb to the amount desired without them.

 

[eric19312]

At 70F and 11 PSI you have about 1.3 volumes CO2 dissolved. If you reduce temp to 50F and let things settle down you should have about the same dissolved CO2 but now you will be closer to 7 PSI, If you pump the head space back up to 11 PSI on gas and hold it here long enough you will end up with your 1.8 volumes in the beer. This would not take as long as set and forget force carbing a keg from typical un pressurized 70 ferment (that would start out with only about 0.7 volumes so you are already ahead by 0.5 volumes, but it will take some time. And there is no reason without the carb stone that it would happen any faster in the CF than it would in a keg. Well maybe surface area geometry might be different but really you might as well transfer to the keg and hook it up to 11 PSI and 50F there.

 

[Vale71]

Sorry I'm confusing with my excellent grammar lol. I dont have a spunding valve. I attached my gas manifold and have built up 11 psi . I was just curious if that build up would carb up the beer enough to get to 1.8 volumes . I see you guys talking about spunding valves and carb stones . I dont have those . I just didnt know if I could carb to the amount desired without them.

Force carbing in a pressurized fermenter works just like in a keg. So yes, if you set the target pressure and leave the CO2 connected for long enough your beer will be carbed to the desired level.

 

[Jag75]

Ok thanks guys

 

[Gozie Boy]

+1 on the heater, especially as winter is upon us.

Also, I've had great performance with the Icemaster 100, and I think the larger reservoir helps to maintain a more consistent glycol temp. Achieved about 36-38F ferm temp this summer with a lager (ambient range was 75-85F). Icemaster recommends 20% PG, but this is too low, as I got a little ice formation when trying to get my temps down. The PG freeze point v temp curve shows that 30 - 33% should be plenty for our applications, and I will top off my reservoir with PG to get there. I was also using the tiny Spike pump that comes with the TC package (which is perfectly fine for ales), but will probably be replacing this with a larger capacity pump for my next application requiring maximum chilling, esp. when it gets warm again. [Glycol temp is not the issue, but translating that to the fermenter is less efficient than I'd like to see.] I'll also be looking to beef up my insulation beyond the neoprene jacket. I'd love to be able to achieve 30F.

=====
I have now taken a considerable amount of time to go through most of the comments in this discussion (not all, it's a long read!). I see that the issue of minimizing cold crash temp has been addressed a few times, and I have seen the good efforts by some to wrap up every in^2 of exposed fermenter surface with better insulation, and yet the comments still suggested that going much below about 36F (using glycol chillers) was a challenge. Has anyone had subsequent experience/results with this? Has anyone tried a larger glycol pump than what Spike provides? Thought I would ask before spending money on an experiment that others may have tried.

 

[eric19312]

I cold crashed my first batch at 28.5F. In a freezer.

 

[CodeSection]

=====
I have now taken a considerable amount of time to go through most of the comments in this discussion (not all, it's a long read!). I see that the issue of minimizing cold crash temp has been addressed a few times, and I have seen the good efforts by some to wrap up every in^2 of exposed fermenter surface with better insulation, and yet the comments still suggested that going much below about 36F (using glycol chillers) was a challenge. Has anyone had subsequent experience/results with this? Has anyone tried a larger glycol pump than what Spike provides? Thought I would ask before spending money on an experiment that others may have tried.

As you are aware, I've had success in easily getting to 36F with just Spike's jacket. Obviously, there are several factors that come into play. I believe we both agree the larger reservoir on the IceMaster 100 certainly helps getting lower than other manufactures.

How low are you trying to get? 32F? How high is your ABV? You would hate to have a "popcycle" form around the temp control coil....

 

[Gozie Boy]

About 4.5 - 5% ABV minimum, which has about a freeze point of about 28.5F (as you know Tfr is lower for higher gravity/higher alcohol beers, but lagers/pils are the main concern for this issue). I had thought about your point during my efforts, which is a good one, but sadly cannot see into the fermenter to see if this has occurred. With the Icemaster, the design limitation to achieve 32-34F ferm temps is less a function of the chiller unit itself (which has no problem getting the glycol supply down to whatever temp is needed), but more likely at the fermenter side. Possibilities include: environmental heat gain into the unit (mitigated by insulation), higher glycol rate to increase heat removal (larger pump), and the heat transfer (coil) design inside the fermenter (don't know how to improve this in an existing unit).

One way to check the pump issue would be to check the return temperature of the glycol. If it is relatively "warm" then perhaps a higher rate pump could be useful to extract more heat and lower the temp. If it is near the reservoir temp, then not so much. I will do this easy test with my next lager (better first step than buying a pump).

If the coil is getting out maximum heat with a given pump, then as you point out, trying to cool it further (e.g. with a lower glycol temp) will reach a point where beer could begin to freeze locally around the coil. One way around this might be to circulate the beer inside the fermenter, similar to adding a fan to a keezer to mitigate the laminated temperature profile inside the box. That could easily defeat the purpose of the cold crash if it in any way disturbed the solids we are trying to drop out, but maybe a slow rotation would not. This would require an ability to get a power line into the fermenter and some kind of very small pump or propeller (this is well down the list of things to attempt).

If higher pump capacity and/or glycol temp combined with better insulation cannot achieve lower temps, then perhaps a more efficient heat transfer mechanism (a different coil design -- maybe fins on the coil?) would help get us there, but I'm not going to tackle that project.

I don't mean to make a meal out of a snack on this issue, because c. 38F is certainly not the end of the world, but it would be nice to be able to get a little more bang 4 buck when desired out of all of this nice equipment and (not so small) expense.

 

[mongoose33]

=====
I have now taken a considerable amount of time to go through most of the comments in this discussion (not all, it's a long read!). I see that the issue of minimizing cold crash temp has been addressed a few times, and I have seen the good efforts by some to wrap up every in^2 of exposed fermenter surface with better insulation, and yet the comments still suggested that going much below about 36F (using glycol chillers) was a challenge. Has anyone had subsequent experience/results with this? Has anyone tried a larger glycol pump than what Spike provides? Thought I would ask before spending money on an experiment that others may have tried.

No on the larger pump, though I did some experimenting with throughput to see if it would make a difference. It didn't make a discernable difference.

My belief is that the beer around the cooling coil is pretty cold; near the outsides of the fermenter, warmer. Only if there's a significant difference in temps between cooling coil and surrounding beer are you going to get much. That's why temps drop fast in initial crashing, but slow as they reach 40 degrees. There's likely a little convection at that point, but only a little.

So--higher flow isn't going to get you much here, IMO.

 

[FswBG]

I have yet to build/buy a glycol chiller and have a porter that's finished fermenting in my CF5. Since I can't crash in the conical is there any issue with doing a closed transfer at room temp (70F)? Any tips on keeping foam down or anything I should be aware of beforehand?

 

[Jag75]

I have yet to build/buy a glycol chiller and have a porter that's finished fermenting in my CF5. Since I can't crash in the conical is there any issue with doing a closed transfer at room temp (70F)? Any tips on keeping foam down or anything I should be aware of beforehand?

I do closed transfers all the time from my cf5 @70F. Never an issue.

 

[Jag75]

I have a DIY chiller and haven't even cold crashed yet. I have a stout sitting at 55F carbing to about 1.8volumes then I'll transfer and hook to gas blend.