Very good point, I forgot to mention that I added a sight glass and extension tube to raise the gas manifold 8-10”. Even with that, it still could be a risk for 10 gal batches.
Spike Conical- observations and best practices
- Thread starter sheikyerbouti
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
Very good point, I forgot to mention that I added a sight glass and extension tube to raise the gas manifold 8-10”. Even with that, it still could be a risk for 10 gal batches.
OK back for more advice.
As mentioned before, when I got to my last few points of gravity I added my dry hops and sealed up the fermentor with the manifold. I flushed the headspace and let it self carbonate. Got to 15.5 PSI and held. A couple days later I took a gravity sample and seeing final gravity started cold crashing. Took 36 hours to get to my target 28.5F (aiming to get to Charlie Bamforth cold crashing range). Once reaching that temp I hooked up the carbonation stone and carbonated to 15 PSI. I think that is a little high but I am aiming for 3 volumes in the keg on this beer. Saturday I plan to keg.
OK...here is my concern. What I didn't do is dump the yeast or dry hops yet. Is this going to be an issue? Should I dump the yeast and dry hop from a pressurized CF before trying to keg or just leave it and dump after kegging?
On the dry hops there is a total of 1 pound of pellets in there now...
Here is a pic of a sample I just pulled. Pretty hazy stuff but I don't see hop particles that would be big enough to plug a pottet.
As mentioned before, when I got to my last few points of gravity I added my dry hops and sealed up the fermentor with the manifold. I flushed the headspace and let it self carbonate. Got to 15.5 PSI and held. A couple days later I took a gravity sample and seeing final gravity started cold crashing. Took 36 hours to get to my target 28.5F (aiming to get to Charlie Bamforth cold crashing range). Once reaching that temp I hooked up the carbonation stone and carbonated to 15 PSI. I think that is a little high but I am aiming for 3 volumes in the keg on this beer. Saturday I plan to keg.
OK...here is my concern. What I didn't do is dump the yeast or dry hops yet. Is this going to be an issue? Should I dump the yeast and dry hop from a pressurized CF before trying to keg or just leave it and dump after kegging?
On the dry hops there is a total of 1 pound of pellets in there now...
Here is a pic of a sample I just pulled. Pretty hazy stuff but I don't see hop particles that would be big enough to plug a pottet.
You're overthinking all this, IMO. I've NEVER dumped yeast or trub, and I've brewed some hazy IPAs. I always crash before transferring to keg, so most of the stuff that would clog poppets is at the bottom.
As long as what you're getting out isn't composed of large pieces, you should be fine.
BTW, I switched from a liquid out post fitting on the fermenter and used this jumper to transfer to keg:
But it was always slow. I switched to this, and now it goes much, much faster:
You're overthinking all this, IMO. I've NEVER dumped yeast or trub, and I've brewed some hazy IPAs. I always crash before transferring to keg, so most of the stuff that would clog poppets is at the bottom.
As long as what you're getting out isn't composed of large pieces, you should be fine.
BTW, I switched from a liquid out post fitting on the fermenter and used this jumper to transfer to keg:
View attachment 651606
But it was always slow. I switched to this, and now it goes much, much faster:
Awesome, thanks. I just went back and re-read various threads and kept finding recommendation to cold crash uncarbonated beer (order presented on Spike website is dump yeast, cold crash, then force carbonate). I pulled that sample and had a big uh oh reaction but am sure it is going to be fine.
(edited to add that 11 days grain to glass that sample was delicious)
Stand
Well-Known Member
I don't keep pressure while cold crashing, no. If I buy the spunding manifold I might, but I can't do that currently.
What I do is spund to 15psi with 5 gravity points left at the end of fermentation. I cold crash and then switch to gas. I expect to lose pressure, but this goes to 0 PSI. Thermal contraction doesn't explain that.
I do it this way because I lost a tank of CO2 already when the gasket in the lid contracted and lost its seal as it got cold.
Fermentrack sets ambient temp to 20 degrees when cold crashing. Maybe that is the problem?
It has happened twice, and I can't figure what I am doing wrong.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2013
- Messages
- 2,066
- Reaction score
- 2,729
The CF-10 shipped today, and I'm happy that it fit's in my fermentation fridge.
The only hiccup so far, (rather silly) is I can't seem to seat the lid gasket. I press it in according to instructions (flat side down) but it falls out when I try to attach the lid.
Any ideas?
Can't wait to fire up a batch in this beauty.
The only hiccup so far, (rather silly) is I can't seem to seat the lid gasket. I press it in according to instructions (flat side down) but it falls out when I try to attach the lid.
Any ideas?
Can't wait to fire up a batch in this beauty.
Put the gasket in the freezer for a while, it'll shrink, and stay put. I also use a little keg lube on the inside of the slot in the lid. It's sticky, and helps hold the gasket in there. Finally, make sure you have the flat side of the gasket in the slot in the lid, and the beveled side against the mouth of the fermenter.
Did you see this? I’ve not had issue seating the lid and have not had to do the freezer trick or use keg lube.
Edited to add...
https://spikebrewing.freshdesk.com/...00045928-lid-gasket-installation-instructions
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2013
- Messages
- 2,066
- Reaction score
- 2,729
Yes. Those instructions came with the unit.
Not sure why this flops out. I've installed with the flat side down.
Going to take the Mongoose advice and keg lube the gasket.
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2013
- Messages
- 2,066
- Reaction score
- 2,729
Generous keg lube was no help. It appears the lid gasket is really loose and sloppy.
I'll try freezing.
I'll try freezing.
CodeSection
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2018
- Messages
- 1,655
- Reaction score
- 818
I make freezing for 20-30 minutes and then a quick dip in Starsan as my routine process every time prior to reinstalling the gasket. It has never fallen out and I have never needed any lube.
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2013
- Messages
- 2,066
- Reaction score
- 2,729
Another small quandary...
For closed pressure transfer, how do you connect the 1.5" TC barb (1/2" ID silicone tubing) to the ball lock (with standard 1/4" MFL)
For closed pressure transfer, how do you connect the 1.5" TC barb (1/2" ID silicone tubing) to the ball lock (with standard 1/4" MFL)
Simple, you get a 1/4" TC barb and 1/4" silicone tubing plus either a QD with 1/4" barb or a 1/4" barb with MFL swivel nut.
Last edited:
How I do it is I use a camlock fitting on the racking valve, and then a female camlock with smaller barb on it. The parts I used to get the smaller barb:
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/hosebarb12mx38.htm
and
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/camd.htm
Can't recall the ID of tubing, either 5/16" or 3/8". It's connected via swivel nut to an MFL-equipped QD, i.e., something like this: https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/fflbarb38.htm
This is how I will be doing it:
https://www.brewhardware.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=FFLBarb12
And half inch racking hose
ZmannR2
Well-Known Member
Selling my Spike CIP ball if anyone wants it hit me up.....I have no need to clean in place anymore
ZmannR2
Well-Known Member
Hey why do you have your racking valve and sample port swapped?? They're in the wrong spots, you know that right?
ZmannR2
Well-Known Member
How is everyone cleaning their spunding valves? I had some krausen up in mine
ZmannR2
Well-Known Member
Shake it a bit or tap on the cap and the condensation will drip away enough to peak inside, especially with a flashlight shining through
My problem is a hear a leak on my clear cap when pressurized....curious if keg lube will stop it
Blazinlow86
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2016
- Messages
- 1,687
- Reaction score
- 743
Yes I'm experimenting with using the carb stone without the racking arm. I haven't noticed a difference fwiw. CheersHey why do you have your racking valve and sample port swapped?? They're in the wrong spots, you know that right?
CodeSection
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2018
- Messages
- 1,655
- Reaction score
- 818
Since I only bottle, I have been reluctant to start spunding or carbing in my CF10 as I did not want to increase my time spent using a counter pressure filler to bottle. Recently, someone suggested researching multi-head counter pressure fillers. That is a viable solution for me.
With that in mind, I have been reading about Spike's PRV. It appears many users have experienced it opening up and releasing pressure around 12 psi rather than at 15 psi. From my understanding, it uses a poppet design that could be contributing to this. Again, upon further readings, a diaphragm PRV appears to be superior to the poppet design.
So, I'm thinking of buying a 1.5" TC to Ball Lock GAS Post (https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/tc15blg.htm) to attach to Spike's 1.5" TC blow-ff cane when there is about 5-7 points still left to ferment. Then I'm thinking of attaching to the gas post, a BlowTie Diaphragm Spunding Valve Kit (https://www.morebeer.com/products/blowtie-diaphragm-spunding-valve-1.html).
In my mind, this setup will allow spunding and will entail the use of the better designed diaphragm PRV. If needed, I would then use Spike's carb stone attached to the racking port and carb after cold crashing.
What are your thoughts of the above setup as well as the process?
With that in mind, I have been reading about Spike's PRV. It appears many users have experienced it opening up and releasing pressure around 12 psi rather than at 15 psi. From my understanding, it uses a poppet design that could be contributing to this. Again, upon further readings, a diaphragm PRV appears to be superior to the poppet design.
So, I'm thinking of buying a 1.5" TC to Ball Lock GAS Post (https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/tc15blg.htm) to attach to Spike's 1.5" TC blow-ff cane when there is about 5-7 points still left to ferment. Then I'm thinking of attaching to the gas post, a BlowTie Diaphragm Spunding Valve Kit (https://www.morebeer.com/products/blowtie-diaphragm-spunding-valve-1.html).
In my mind, this setup will allow spunding and will entail the use of the better designed diaphragm PRV. If needed, I would then use Spike's carb stone attached to the racking port and carb after cold crashing.
What are your thoughts of the above setup as well as the process?
Last edited:
Any valve where the set pressure can be changed by the user is not equivalent to a PRV and cannot be considered a suitable substitute for this safety feature. I see that the valve you linked to can be adjusted all the way to 40 PSI which is a pressure that AFAIK Spike's fermenters are not rated for. If you set the valve to too high a pressure by mistake you risk incurring bodily harm as a consequence.
I can only recommend replacing Spike's PRV with this model which I found to be very reliable
https://www.morebeer.com/products/morebeer-pro-tank-prv-15-tc-1-bar.html
and then attaching an adjustable spunding valve if you think you might need to limit the actual pressure to less than 15 PSI.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2019
- Messages
- 160
- Reaction score
- 183
The engineer in me says “cold crashing shouldn’t make it drop that much”. But in my years I’ve been surprised by so many things (ie not a very good engineer). You said you already starsan sprayed everything under pressure?
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2019
- Messages
- 160
- Reaction score
- 183
I would write spike. Their customer service more often than not is superb. They’d likely send a replacement gasket free of charge if you email them and tell them your issue. Then you can see if that one works. Just my recommendation.
Thermal contraction of the wort is minimal and will also be partly compensated by the vessel shrinking too as its temperature drops. Pressure in the headspace will decrease a little due to the ideal gas law but most importantly as beer drops to a lower temperature CO2 solubility will increase and beer will start absorbing CO2 from the headspace considerably reducing CO2 density and therefore pressure (also according to ideal gas law). However this will take some time, whereas the drop merely due to the gas cooling down will be immediate and will cause what is commonly referred to as "suck back" when using a blow-off in an unpressurized vessel.
It is possible if your fermentation temperature was really high and you drop the temperature to near freezing that the 15 PSI you had at the end of fermentation will drop to 0 or even to a slight vacuum once the beer has had time to absorb CO2 from the headspace.
This begs the question: what temperature did you have at the end of fermentation (as 15 PSI headspace pressure was reached) and to what temperature did you cool the beer?
This is one of the things I love about this site--until reading your post, it never occurred to me to use a spunding valve in place of the PRV on my spike. Now you've started me thinking about lots of options here. I can't decide whether to thank or curse you for that.
My original spike PRV would hold about 13.5 psi; I wanted it to go at least to 15, but no go. Stopped by the Spike mothership a couple weeks ago, had a nice conversation with one of the employees, who said the newer PRVs they're using will go all the way to 15. So I bought one, replaced on my conical, pumped it up with pressure, and yes, it did go higher, almost to 17. Problem was, when it released, it dropped down to about 10 psi before resealing. That's NG as well.
So this spunding valve idea is much more attractive to me. I actually have a spare spunding valve of the type shown in this pic, just the valve, not the gauge or Tee or QD:
So now I need to see if that valve will fit the threaded opening on the pressure manifold. But I'm also wondering if the valve you show above would be better.
Stand
Well-Known Member
74 to 32 was the temperature change, but I lost a tank of CO2 cold crashing while pressurizing before I had spunding valve.
It isn't leaking when it is warm. I am sure of that much.
I have a tube of food grade white petroleum I might try before I reach out to them.
I used to use mylar balloons to keep suckback from happening, and they can't be more than 2-3 liters. Very hard to imagine 15psi of dissolves CO2 plus headspace is going to zero, but I don't know the math.
Actually now that I think about it the volume chart for carbonation will answer this.
It isn't leaking when it is warm. I am sure of that much.
I have a tube of food grade white petroleum I might try before I reach out to them.
I used to use mylar balloons to keep suckback from happening, and they can't be more than 2-3 liters. Very hard to imagine 15psi of dissolves CO2 plus headspace is going to zero, but I don't know the math.
Actually now that I think about it the volume chart for carbonation will answer this.
That chart will help answer it, but you're right about the pressure not going to zero as a result of the CO2 dissolving into the beer. Pressure will reach a new equilibrium which, without leaks, will be higher than it was.
I see the same phenomenon in my keg of water I use to feed a glass rinser on my keezer. It's a small torpedo keg filled with water, and the water is pushed by CO2. I need 20psi or more to effectively push that water through the rinser. I don't keep it on the gas all the time, I have a valve on the secondary regulator I turn off when I'm not using it. That 20psi drops down a fair amount if I don't use it for a week or 10 days, as the CO2 is being absorbed into the water (seltzer!). But there's still pressure even though much less than 20 psi.
FWIW, how much it drops depends on how much water is left in the keg. When full of water, not much headspace, so not even a single volume of CO2 (probably 1/10 of a volume or so). But when the reverse, i.e., only 1/10 of the water remaining, the headspace is huge compared to the water, so most of the CO2 cannot be dissolved into the water before equilibrium is reached.
It's not that surprising if you think that your beer is at about 1.5 vols of CO2 when sitting at 15 PSI and 74°F. At 32°F and 15 PSI you'd have 3.3 vols of CO2 or more than twice what you had at the end of fermentation and that is obviously impossible without attaching an external CO2 source.
Now if you look at the carbonation level needed to manatin just 1 PSI (or barely positive pressure) at 32°F you'll see that it must already have climbed to 1.75 vols of CO2, or 0.25 vols more than what you had at the end of fermentation. That literally means that the beer has pulled 0.25 times its own volume of CO2 from the headspace in order to reach the new equilibrium. This also means that if your headspace amounts to less than 25% of the beer volume then a new equilibrium will not be reached and pressure will decrease to 0 PSI (which means atmospheric pressure and is not yet a vacuum) and will possibly keep decreasing, which would then create a vacuum and damage your fermenter except that your PRV most likely also protects against a vacuum and (hopefully) lets air in before any damage is done.
Suckback is a completely different thing and is a short-term effect of pressure decreasing without the gas density actually decreasing. In your case you'd be dropping from 296°K to 273°K hence the new pressure (without CO2 adsorption) would be:
15 * (273/296) = 13.83 PSI
which is a moderate drop in pressure and can be compensated for with a relatively small amount of CO2.
I totally agree that it's highly unlikely that you might have a leak in your fermenter as it would leak faster and therefore be more readily noticeable at higher temperature and pressure. The fact that you got an empty tank of CO2 when leaving it attached is probably due to a leak in the regulator/tubing requiring its own troubleshooting in order to identify and fix.
Last edited:
Unless you're OK with the possibility that your fermenter might blow up in your face and possibly kill or maim you I suggest you stop thinking about it right away.
Blazinlow86
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2016
- Messages
- 1,687
- Reaction score
- 743
Agreed. Don't replace the spike prv with a spunding valve. Just attach the spunding valve to the ball lock post on the gas manifold as designed and set the pressure you desire on the spunding valve lower than whatever your prv valve releases at to avoid having it drop way down. Works great I've been doing it that way since day one. Imo the prv is not meant for spunding purposes. It's only a safety valve. CheersUnless you're OK with the possibility that your fermenter might blow up in your face and possibly kill or maim you I suggest you stop thinking about it right away.
CodeSection
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2018
- Messages
- 1,655
- Reaction score
- 818
You make a very good point regarding the automatic safety feature. Mistakes do happen....
I guess the ideal situation would be a BlowTie that had a lessor maximum pressure. That way you could still be able to use a diaphragm design and have the safety feature.
I wonder how much head pressure can be generated by 5-7 points remaining in fermentation? Will it exceed 15, 20, or 25 psi?
Please don't get me wrong while I "think" through this next question. Many manufacturers give various safety ratings on their products. Since they fear liability, they lower the actual ratings to a much, much lessor rating to avoid litigation. Accidents happen and end users may not comply with warnings. So, I wonder if Spike's true pressure rating (ignoring liability recommendations) is actually much higher...say doubled? I have seen pressure on my swimming pool's DE filters far exceed the maximum pressure (due to blockage) and held intact. Though, in one situation one of my the pump's housing split due to the pressure.
So, back to my question about head pressure with 5-7 points remaining...will it exceed 15, 20 or 25 psi? If not, then adding the BlowTie near the end of fermentation may not be that much of a risk as compared with using it during the complete fermentation process that some brewers do.
CodeSection
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2018
- Messages
- 1,655
- Reaction score
- 818
Have you experienced any problems with the PRV's poppet reseating/closing properly as others have experienced? Does your PRV hold pressure up to 15 psi or does it starting releasing it prior to that level?
You're talking about 3-4 additional vols of CO2 so depending on temperature this could easily exceed 70-80 PSI.
As for the fermenter being able to sustain higher pressures, that might be the case but for the Spike I'm afraid the first thing to give way without warning once the actual physical limit is reached would be the cap. I wouldn't want to have such a large part turned into a high-energy projectile while I'm in the room...
Unless you're OK with the possibility that your fermenter might blow up in your face and possibly kill or maim you I suggest you stop thinking about it right away.
I might consider that if I were doing 10-gallon batches, but with the 5-gallon batches the krausen never comes close to high enough to matter.
CodeSection
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2018
- Messages
- 1,655
- Reaction score
- 818
Wow, I would have never thought the psi could get that high! In a very quick search, I found the Blichmann spunding valve has a maximum 35 psi. Is the BlowTie and Blichmann really made for fermenters that have higher maximum psi?
I believe I understand how to use Spike's carbing stone and how it performs....tempt after crash and psi to give the desired volume after carbing for 24-48 hours. I guess part of my confusion is that I am still trying to understand spunding.
If I'm fermenting at 65F and add a spunding valve with 5-7 points remaining, can look at a carbonation chart to determine the pressure needed to achieve the desired CO2 level? Then when I cold crash to 36F, the pressure needed to achieve the same level decreases. Since I believe there will be some equilibrium while cold crashing, do I just really ignore the higher tempt level? Lastly, how long must the spunding take place after cold crashing in order to achieve the desire CO2 level?....is the fermenter sorta of acting like a brite tank at that point?
Blazinlow86
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2016
- Messages
- 1,687
- Reaction score
- 743
My prv releases at 15psi and when it does it gently bleeds the pressure off and maintains 15psi typically however it is extremely sensitive and if I pull on it manually occasionally it will drop down 5psi before closing on its own. I always use my spunding valve set at anywhere from 1-2psi during active fermentation and eventually 14psi at the end. As I said previously i don't think the supplied prv is intended to be used for spunding in anyway. It's only there for safety reasons. Cheers
Blazinlow86
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2016
- Messages
- 1,687
- Reaction score
- 743
Spunding is not all that usefully in this case as your only going to be able to get up to 1.87ish at a typical ale fermentation temp. It's better than nothing but not a huge advantage. You would need to add the carb stone if you want fully carbed beer in a hurry or set it and forget it using the top post but that's a decent wait. Cheers
Similar threads
