Specialty Grains & the amount of water used for them

[jamursch]

I'm an extract brewer and some of the recipes I try have specialty grains included. The directions say to steep these in 1.5-2 gallons of water for 20 mins then add to the brew pot.

My question is this:
Why can't I just steep them in my brew pot that has my full boil amount of water in it (6 gallons)? It seems like an unnecessary step that just adds time to my process. Is there a scientific reason that comes into play?

It seems like if you steep it in 2 gallons, then add it all to 4 to make 6 it's going to end up the same thing right?

 

[Yooper]

I'm an extract brewer and some of the recipes I try have specialty grains included. The directions say to steep these in 1.5-2 gallons of water for 20 mins then add to the brew pot.

My question is this:
Why can't I just steep them in my brew pot that has my full boil amount of water in it (6 gallons)? It seems like an unnecessary step that just adds time to my process. Is there a scientific reason that comes into play?

It seems like if you steep it in 2 gallons, then add it all to 4 to make 6 it's going to end up the same thing right?

You can steep in the full volume, usually.

But here's the thing to be aware of. Some grains are actually being mashed during some of those "steeps". And mashing requires a prescribed amount of water at a prescribed temperature for a prescribed length of time.

What I would recommend doing is always using 2 quarts of water per pound of grain in the steep (also can be a mash) and then bringing the rest of the volume up to temperature and just adding the liquor from the grain steep to that. That would save time, but would require a second pot. It's easy to treat all of the grains the same way, though, and not have to think about which grains are mashing grains, which are steeping, how much water to add at each steep, etc. Just a thought!

 

[Denny]

I'm gonna differ from Yooper here just a bit. Ideally you want to use about the same amount of water as you would for a mash. The purpose is to avoid any chance of tannins. The grain will naturally reduce the pH of the water but if you use too much water you won't have enough grain to pull down the pH. Admittedly it's a minor thing and may not pose a problem for you, but if you want to be safe keep it between 1.5-2 qt. of water per lb. of grain.

 

[cockybitz]

I'm gonna differ from Yooper here just a bit. Ideally you want to use about the same amount of water as you would for a mash. The purpose is to avoid any chance of tannins. The grain will naturally reduce the pH of the water but if you use too much water you won't have enough grain to pull down the pH. Admittedly it's a minor thing and may not pose a problem for you, but if you want to be safe keep it between 1.5-2 qt. of water per lb. of grain.

I must disagree with this. The larger part of tannin extraction, in mash brewing, comes from the sparge. The more we sparge the more that those buffering ions wash out. It is at this point that the acidity in the mash/wort dies off. I would imagine that in a steep, a lot of water would still result in the optimal range, as the buffers are not being washed away.

 

[andrewskibrewski]

I have always mashed out the specialty grains or steep the speciality grains. If I steep the grain I start off the brew with with steep grain first then add my malt from mashing. A grain cloth works fine, but don't skip any steps ever! I have done this both ways many of time and my always comes out strong - just be patient

 

[phoenixs4r]

I must disagree with this. The larger part of tannin extraction, in mash brewing, comes from the sparge. The more we sparge the more that those buffering ions wash out. It is at this point that the acidity in the mash/wort dies off. I would imagine that in a steep, a lot of water would still result in the optimal range, as the buffers are not being washed away.

I think you are actually agreeing with him. Over sparging = fubared PH, which is on vase with what he is saying for the most part, but since sparging isn't actually taking place, and the entire water volume added at once, you've fubared the PH anyways.

I disagree that the word tannin was ever brought up in a steeping thread. I'm all for education, but it really shouldn't lose an issue for steeping a couple pounds of grain in an extract brew.

 

[cockybitz]

A little buffer goes a long way. I would imagine that 1 gallon of water per pound of grain would still reside in the pH range low enough to prevent tannins. You may not be low enough for great conversion, tho.

 

[jamursch]

Ok, so I'm starting to see the amount of water is critical to the correct PH levels that are needed to get the most from your specialty grains.
Even though you are just adding them to the full boil after steeping, what you add vs. what would be achieved when steeped in a full boil amount would most likely be vastly different.

Thanks everyone!

 

[afr0byte]

A little buffer goes a long way. I would imagine that 1 gallon of water per pound of grain would still reside in the pH range low enough to prevent tannins. You may not be low enough for great conversion, tho.

Try it with this guy's water and let us know. It may not be a problem, but it's certainly safer to do a more normal water to grain ratio.

 

[mabrungard]

I agree with Denny's answer, but with qualifications. If the water has significant alkalinity, then its very possible that having a large amount of steeping water could result in a wort with too high pH and tannin extraction is more likely. The same thing applies if that high alkalinity water is used to sparge.

If the water has very low alkalinity (RO, distillled, rain water or its been acidified), then the potential to result in a wort with too high a wort pH is minor and it could be possible to use more water for steeping.

So, the answer really depends on your water.

 

[zzARzz]

If you're worried about the pH getting funky you could always use something like 52 pH Stabilizer mixed in your brew water before steeping the grains. I've used it in all of my brews and the pH always holds in the 5-6 range, whether it was an All Extract, BIAB/Partial Extract or an AG (with an efficiency range of 80-85%). In my BIAB batch I steeped in 4 gallons for 1.5 pounds of grain (topping off to 5 gallons in the fermenter) and didn't have any hint of tannins or off flavors in the final product.

I did some research before getting 52 pH and in order for it to be effective you need to have your water source initially in the 6-8pH range and it won't work in an initial water pH above 9.

A jar of it was $15 at the LBS, but you only need 1 tbsp per 5 gallons, so it will last a really long time making it less than $1 extra cost per batch.

 

[Denny]

I must disagree with this. The larger part of tannin extraction, in mash brewing, comes from the sparge. The more we sparge the more that those buffering ions wash out. It is at this point that the acidity in the mash/wort dies off. I would imagine that in a steep, a lot of water would still result in the optimal range, as the buffers are not being washed away.

That's because sparging reduces buffering power, as you say, and the pH rises. Kinda the same thing I was saying about the steep, except in the steep there's not enough buffering there in the first place if you use too much water. The exception might be if you were steeping a lot of dark grain.

 

[Denny]

If you're worried about the pH getting funky you could always use something like 52 pH Stabilizer mixed in your brew water before steeping the grains. I've used it in all of my brews and the pH always holds in the 5-6 range, whether it was an All Extract, BIAB/Partial Extract or an AG (with an efficiency range of 80-85%). In my BIAB batch I steeped in 4 gallons for 1.5 pounds of grain (topping off to 5 gallons in the fermenter) and didn't have any hint of tannins or off flavors in the final product.

I did some research before getting 52 pH and in order for it to be effective you need to have your water source initially in the 6-8pH range and it won't work in an initial water pH above 9.

A jar of it was $15 at the LBS, but you only need 1 tbsp per 5 gallons, so it will last a really long time making it less than $1 extra cost per batch.

My water pH is 7.4 and the 5.2 Buffer didn't work fir me. In addition, it added a strange flavor to the beer.

 

[Yooper]

My water pH is 7.4 and the 5.2 Buffer didn't work fir me. In addition, it added a strange flavor to the beer.

Me, too. My pH was 8.2, though. But instead of "locking in" the mash pH, I still had pH issues but then with an additional strange flavor in my beer also!

I would say that few people have found that 5.2 buffer works for them- I think maybe two different people on this forum have told me it might have worked for them. The rest have given poor reviews.