Spark Ignition for Brutus

[beerthirty]

I have found VR8304 solenoid valves for a good price but it appears they are low pressure. Can they be converted (with a spring kit?) for high pressure?

 

[kladue]

They are low pressure only (4" -13" wc)(.15 - .5 PSI) for higher pressures you need an ASCO or STC solenoid valve. If you plan on using the 10" cast iron banjo burners you can buy the low pressure orifice for them and use low pressure propane with the propane conversion for the VR8304 valves.

 

[beerthirty]

Thanks klaude. I'm a Cat tech so mechanical and AC certified, but understand little(yet) of HVAC parts. What wc rating should I look for when hunting for solenoid valves for the standard high pressure bugle style burner powered by propane?

 

[kladue]

Here is a link to the type of valve most of the folks are using STC 2 way normally closed solenoid valve, 1/2" npt 24/60 volts AC, this unit has a 24VAC coil so it could be used with an ignition module in the future. For now use a 120-24 vac transformer and switch the 24 VAC to solenoid coil to activate. If you need help with your rig build plumbing or controls, I have relocated to the Mesa area until the end of the year and have weekends open to help out.

 

[beerthirty]

Cool beans! You need to come to some of the brew outs that are happening soon. May 3rd is next on the list I believe. I will be posting pics of the long awaited brew trailer(WIP) tomorrow.
Thanks for the link, now I just need to learn the nomenclature so the spec sheets make sense. I will pm you.

 

[korndog]

I just want to say that it's a super-windy day here in the Southland. I am brewing Dude's Lakewalk and have enjoyed several blowouts and relights! This is what makes the spark ignition all worthwhile.

 

[beerthirty]

And I thought it was all about the lawn chair.

 

[BlindLemonLars]

I just want to say that it's a super-windy day here in the Southland. I am brewing Dude's Lakewalk and have enjoyed several blowouts and relights! This is what makes the spark ignition all worthwhile.

You're a braver man than I, Gunga Din!

Between the morning showers and the brutal wind, I called off yesterday's Golden Promise/EKG SMASH. Between the moisture (and inevitable mud,) the swirling dust/leaves and the blowouts, it takes the fun right out of it.

 

[korndog]

You're a braver man than I, Gunga Din!

Between the morning showers and the brutal wind, I called off yesterday's Golden Promise/EKG SMASH. Between the moisture (and inevitable mud,) the swirling dust/leaves and the blowouts, it takes the fun right out of it.

I hear ya Lars. The blowouts I have covered, but I need to be careful pitching in this mess. I guess I'll see you at Mayfaire if not before.

KD

 

[Ridemywideglide]

Just stumbled across this thread as I'm working up a plan for my Brewstand...

Have some questions for you korndog and kladue...

I was planning this burner for the BK.

http://www.topfoodservice.com/Merch...ECABJ009&Category_Code=KECABJ&Product_Count=8

and 2 of these to fill the other 2 slots in my setup.

http://www.topfoodservice.com/Merch...ECABJ005&Category_Code=KECABJ&Product_Count=4

Then I came across these valves on ebay, will these incorporate with the burners and the auto-spark setup?

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-HONEYWELL-2...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a560bee69

I haven't found any of the STC valves you listed above, on ebay yet but I'll keep looking. Sorry for the elementary questions, but I'm just a tile guy.. Never been involved in any HVAC other than lighting my own pilot on the hotwater heater..

on edit:

And is this a correct part to use as well??? These are cheap if they'll work.

http://cgi.ebay.com/HONEYWELL-Q345A...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item33572022d3

 

[kladue]

First the burners, here is a link to buy the Banjo burner at a reasonable price http://www.agrisupply.com/bg-high-pressure-cast-iron-burner-/p/64494/cn/5400001/, this burner can be operated at high or low pressure by changing the jet, turn down ratio is much higher than the jet burners. As to the valve you have a Hot Surface ignition mode selected, you need to look for the VR8304 series valves with dual valves for pilot and main gas, here is an example http://cgi.ebay.com/HONEYWELL-VR8304M4002-3-4-x3-4-NATURAL-GAS-VALVE-81750_W0QQitemZ220510113896QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item33576d5068

 

[Ridemywideglide]

Thanks for the link.. I guess I'm lost on the high vs low pressure aspect.. I have BBQ bottles and 2 different regulators at the moment.. 1 5psi reg, and 1 20psi reg.. I assume this has nothing to do with what your talking about?

I'll keep looking for the valves. And what about the non-pilot version mentioned before. That sounds more appealing. Which valves for that setup?

 

[RonRock]

I am also looking for pilot assembles. Those look like a good buy, but do not include an LPG orifice. There seems to be many different choices as far as pilot setups go. Will these work with the 8610 setup? I'd also need to find the propane conversion, but they are priced right. And include an igniter.

http://cgi.ebay.com/HONEYWELL-Q345A...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item33572022d3

 

[kladue]

The pilot number is correct and the price looks right, you will need this for conversion to LP http://www.hvacpartsoutlet.com/lporificeforq314q345q3450q3451q3452pilotburnershoneywell390686-1.aspx
As to control setups for high/low pressure the furnace valves are for less than 1/2PSI operation. If you want to go with 5-30 psi then you will need minimum 1/4" solenoids, 1 for each pilot, 1 for each burner. When the solenoids at ~ $32 ea are figured in it is usually cheaper to go with dual valve furnace valves and a low pressure rig regulator, save the 5+ psi regulator to feed low pressure regulator on rig.

 

[Ridemywideglide]

Ok, I just have the 2 regulators from other turkey fryer burners.

Is something like this link what I should have at the rig? It says output capacity 37mbar, which converts to .54psi... So I would just have this hooked to the plumbing on the rig and connect it directly to the tank on brew day??

http://cgi.ebay.com/Low-Pressure-Pr...ervan_Caravan_Accessories?hash=item4cec41c047

And for the burners, that is a good price for the Banjo. I'm wondering why a jet burner seems not to be a good choice. I have no frame of reference other than reading here as I've not used anything but the turkey burner I have. I am wanting to be able to boil 15g in the future with this build, that's why I was leaning toward the 240Kbtu jet burner.

Thanks for the answers.. Seems building it may actually be the easy part... Designing it rough at the moment...

 

[beerthirty]

Jet burners require a certain flow rate to allow the venturi effect to work properly. As Kevin said they are less adjustable.

 

[RonRock]

There are several things to consider before you buy anything.

The first thing I would look at is fuel source. Natural Gas, LPG ?

Then read up on the different burner types. Two different types basically, Jet burner and Ring type. The Jet will be restricted to high pressure I believe. I may be wrong on this I decided against them right off because of their lack of adjustability. That is something you will have to study and decide on your own.

The Ring type such as Banjo or Hurricane can be either high or low pressure and have better flame control (than the Jet type) with the correct valve.

Then you have to consider how you want to control these burners. Pilot light, Push Button igniter, or even a Match. As well as how automatic you want the burners to work. Manual, PID, computer (BCS, Brewtroller, or something homebrewed)

And of course cost is always a concern.

 

[Ridemywideglide]

Yes I just just found your thread Ron.. Looks great so far.. I think I'm going to incorporate the X-style burner support into my build. Just for looks if no other viable reason.

LPG will be my source, I need it portable. What I'm trying to do is build something that I can run manualy now, and have the right parts to automate it as funds become available. I'd like full flame automation at some point. Brewtroll or arduino are options I've lightly looked into thus far. At this point I don't have keggles, just my 15g kettle and cooler MLT. I just don't want to end up buying things twice because of a later upgrade.

 

[RonRock]

Cool, sounds like you have a good idea where you want to end up.

 

[kladue]

Consider starting with 2 10" banjo burners (HLT & BK)and 1 6" (MLT) cast burners jetted for low pressure LP. Use the Q345 electric pilot burners for standing pilots, which can be wired to ignition modules at a later date. Use the 5+ psi turkey fryer regulator to step tank pressure down so an inexpensive single stage low pressure regulator can be used on brew rig. Connect burners with flex lines so automatic valves can be installed later and flex lines would be moved to fit. While the jet burners look impressive the reality is with anything larger than the 10 jet model most of the flame goes by the keggle without doing any work, the 10" ring burners are more than enough to get the job done. The other problem with the jet burners as previously stated is they are only happy at near full throttle, at lower settings they can not induce enough air to burn clean like the cast ring burners can at low settings, and will produce all sorts of unpleasant things from incomplete combustion.

 

[Ridemywideglide]

Thank you for all the answers and guidance kladue..

I hope the gather the steel next week and start the framing.. I priced 1x1/8th steel at 58 cents a foot, but I think I may step up to 1.5 for the beefier look. Either way, the framing cost will be minimal.

Thanks again..

 

[kladue]

Here is a second stage regulator for the brew rig with enough capacity to fire all the burners http://cgi.ebay.com/FISHER-CONTROLS-LP-GAS-SECOND-STAGE-REGULATOR_W0QQitemZ190360253889QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2c525af5c1.
You need the 10 psi regulator on the tank to drop the pressure to 10 PSI for the second regulator input. The single stage low pressure BBQ regulators do not flow enough gas to fire more than 1 small burner at a time so the minimum you should go is 350,000 BTU capacity regulator.

 

[beerthirty]

Kevin, Is the 350,000 BTU the total combined with the secondary reg? I have beeen trying to figure out what I needed to do to prevent overpressure damage to my system(H8610's with high pressure reg). Also what orifice size should bugle burners have with the low pressure reg?

 

[kladue]

BeerThirty,
Your rig is setup to operate on high pressure to get the 4" burners to perform correctly. A secondary regulator would be needed for a BBQ connection on the back but the solenoids and burners on the rig need high pressure.

 

[TrickyDick]

Can the Honeywell Valve 8300A3500 work in a similar setup with the spark ignition?

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Jet burners require a certain flow rate to allow the venturi effect to work properly. As Kevin said they are less adjustable.

Is it possible to install an adjustable inline venturi air inlet device similar to the old CharBroil BBQ burners just before the inlet to the jet burners to improve this?

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Ok-

I've rounded up a list a parts for this project, and wanted to ask if they would work together in this application.

Kladue seems to be the resident HVAC expert so I was hoping to get his opinion too.
From PEXSUPPLY.com

Pilot Burner for natural gas with a BCR-18 orifice - SKU: Q345A1313 Brand: Honeywell

LP Orifice for Pilot Burners (Q314, Q345, Q3450, Q3451, Q3452) - SKU: 390686-1 Brand: Honeywell

1/4" x 5' Pilot Burner Tubing w/ Fittings - SKU: 11-293 Brand: Robertshaw

Intermittent Pilot Control SKU: S8610U3009 Brand: Honeywell

Standard Dual Intermittent Pilot Gas Valve - SKU: VR8204A2076 Brand: Honeywell

Transformer, 40VA, 60 Hz, 120/208/240V Primary, 24V Secondary, Foot Mount - SKU: 90-T40F3 Brand: White Rodgers

Is this transformer powerful enough at 40VA to support a system that runs two separate valves and Spark Control units?

Thanks!

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

As a separate topic on spark ignition, any recommendations on a manual push-button ignition setup that I can use when I want to run the Boil Kettle, as this will be on a manual valve, not a solenoid valve? My BBQ has such a device that runs on a AA battery, and the side burner on a twist knob spark generator.. No idea what these things are called.

TD

 

[kladue]

The 40 VA transformer is ok for one ignition module, the 96-100VA transformer is able to handle up to 3 modules. There does not seem to be much available between those transformer ratings so I would look for the 100VA transformer. Before you buy a LP orifice for the pilot burner check and see if it is included with the pilot burner package.

 

[TrickyDick]

Kladue-

how does the rest of that equipment list look? Will those parts play well together?

Thanks again for all the help!

TD

 

[kladue]

The parts list looks good, the pilot burner comes with spare orifice so the .010" orifice is not needed. As to a transformer here is a part number for one big enough for two modules Honeywell-AT175A1008, cap the unused primary leads and tywrap out of the way.
The battery powered push button ignition would be easier to use over the Piezo push button type as it gives multiple sparks as button is held down. For a manually controlled and attended burner it is appropriate for the task, some folks believe in the gas match as a cheaper alterative but the push button has a higher bling factor.

 

[TrickyDick]

Hey All-

Thanks for all the great tips.

I've got most of the parts I need now. Steel is being welded this week and maybe early into next week. Adding some custom elements maybe. Was thinking about a diamond plate clip-in panels for a finished look.
Was also thinking about placing the burners on a strip of Stainless Steel between 2 to 4" wide welded to the frame like a stirrup from front to back.
Was also thinking about using some braces to prevent a windy tip-over strength wind from ruining my rig. Anyone had problems with their stand tipping over? I read about it, but don't want to end up with over 1100 dollars in dented boilermaker kettles....

OK, on to the MAIN question I have now...

Burner spacing. I have the 10 tip burners and want to know where to mount or install them below the kettles for optimal burn. I'll be using 15 Gallon Boilermaker kettles. once installed, it could be difficult to modify this spacing between the burners and the kettles. Also if you could, advise about the way this is measured- for instance, the height from the top of the brass tips to the bottom of the kettle , or height from the top of the cast burner body to the bottom of the kettle. Height from flame tip to kettle would be hard to measure before the rig is built of course.

TD

 

[Mob_Barley]

I have the same basic parts list as TrickyDick and will run three control valves, the BK valve will be switched instead of controlled with a Love controller as the other two will be. I purchased a TR75VA004 75VA transformer (from Apex Controls) to run everything. I will be using three banjo burners with low pressure. As a side note I found the Hurricane Products brand of banjo burner here for what seems like the cheapest price on the internet ($26.99).

I have a few questions:
1. The VR8204 valves have a built-in regulator as I understand it, will I still need to have a second stage regulator on the rig? What regulator should I run on the propane tank itself?
2. Will the 75VA transformer handle the three valves and modules?
3. Does the ground wire from the VR8204 need to be run to the pilot assy.? Won't the pilot set-up be grounded onto the mounting hardware?
4. This seems like a stupid question but I need to get it clarified: will the ignition modules be mounted inside the control panel or on the rig near the valves?
5. And finally, do you recommend a flex hose from the valve to the burner orifice?

Thanks in advance for everyone's help.

 

[TrickyDick]

The parts list looks good, the pilot burner comes with spare orifice so the .010" orifice is not needed.

Seems like my modules did NOT come with the extra orifices for some reason. Packaging says "Includes Only 0.18 in Natural Gas Orifice" I'll order those. It's been a while (20 years) since i used a flare tool on tubing. I'll need to practice before putting it all together. Looks like this ignition pilot unit is going to be a tight fit on my 10 tip burners.

With respect to the rest of this project, it is still under-way. Cart is nearly fully welded. Planning to use flex-gas pipes fitted to regular black gas pipe and Tee fittings. Still haven't picked a regulator yet to run it all.

Working on the wiring diagram and the control panel right now, and have a few questions.. here they are...

1. what are the appropriate electrical connections between the Temp controller, the Spark module, the pilot Assembly and the valve?

This is obviously the most important question. Obviously the MV/MV-PV/PV connections are made between the units as a straight match-up of the terminals. Next the Pilot Assy gets grounded to the valve.

From here I am concerned. I thought that the spark module was ALSO a sensor - it could tell when the pilot was lit. But it seems this is not the case. Thus I am to leave the Sense-Jumper cable intact? I assume yes. What happens during a non-intentional flame-out? Will it re-ignite the pilot? Is the spark cable also a sensor cable (single Rod unit)? The supplied instruction sheet indicates this is a Pilot Burner/Ignitor-Sensor. (PN-q345a 1313)

Next is my connection between my 24VDC and my PID switch and the spark module. I would assume that the 24 VDC input is connected the the NO switch on my PID then plugs into the Spark module - but to which terminal? Then the other link of the 24VDC source is plugged into the spark module, but again, which terminal? There are 4 options on the spark module (GND,24V,24VGND, THW). This also makes me wonder if the spark module must also be grounded to the valve and igniter/pilot assy

Without any further guidance, I would assume that I connect the Pilot Burner metal to the Spark Assy GND terminal and also to the Valve body grounding point. (SHould this also be grounded back to the control panel common ground?) THen I would assume that the 24V GND be connected to one half of the 24VDC supply to the transformer output (Secondary), with the the other half of the transformer (secondary) being connected with the switch on the PID controller, then into the THW connection on the spark module.

Can anyone confirm this as the correct way to wire? Kladue?


One other point - the spark wires - there is a honeywell part number for these, though the connections appear to be simple spark plug wire. I have no source for sparkplug wires other than brand new, and probably a set of 4. I was thinking the honeywell part is probably fine - though I will need 2.

Well those are my major concerns right now. It seems to me that perhaps the only major issue would be in connection of the PID switch to the spark module (to the 24V input as opposed to the THW input but this seems to be wrong to me).

Also, I am concerned about mounting the spark modules. The instructions state NOT to mount upside down, but say nothing about side mount, or non-level mounting (such as to the bottom-side of an angled control panel). Are there gravity dependent component inside or is this merely to prevent environemental dust, water, etc from dripping onto the terminals at the top of the module?

Review of the instructions also detail an "air proving switch" though I am not sure this is necessary at all.

Finally (at last) the dip switches. these allow you to specify the prepurge and trial durations. the default is 0/90 sec respectively. prepurge can be set to 0 or 30 sec and trial spark can be set to either 90 or 15 sec. I assume default is best option here?

Thanks again for great advice. Looking forward to getting this control panel cut and need to finish my wiring diagram first.

Need to have a "box" fabricated out of the stainless steel so I can seal it off from below with a box and perhaps some automotive gasket material. Any suggestions for this?

Thanks!

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Oh Yeah,

Any Part Number for the Rector Seal or Permatex Non-Hardening Gasket Seal? Can't find in local Hardware shop, gonna have to order online at McMaster.

Also, looking for the flexi gas tubing to connect from the propane pipe to the burners. I want to use flex tubing so I can adjust burner height, and see how that works before connecting rigid tubing. I am concerned that the weight of 2 burners would cause the friction mounted pipe to rotate, even with tightly mounted brackets for the black pipe). No local sources I can find. Gonna have to use 1/2 MPT fittings, and will probably also need a 1/2 to 3/8 reducer to fit my burners. Was thinking the best place for a ball valve is AFTER the automated valve - which mine are 1/2"

TD

 

[kladue]

Here is a wiring diagram for the ignition modules and a love controllerhttp://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/Ignition#5420037998508461298, just change the terminal numbers on controller to match you controller NO-COM connections. As to the permatex #2, it should be availlable at an autoparts store, make sure you have some rubbing alcohol available to remove it from things it is not supposed to get on. For the flex gas connections you can use the water heater gas connector flexes as they are equiped with adapters that are 1/2" NPT by 3/8" flare, remove one adapter and it should connect to the gas fitting.
Mounting of the ignition modules is not gravity dependant, just needs to be positioned so a spill will not fill enclosure, as to the switches, set them for no purge delay and 15 second pilot trial. If pilot goes out the spark starts up, main fuel closes, and if no pilot fire detected the pilot valve closes and spark stops, cycle power to module and it will start ignition cycle again. The option plug should be left alone as there is no air flow switch associated with an exhauster like those found on high efficiency furnaces.

 

[TrickyDick]

Kladue-

Many many thanks! Can't tell you how much I appreciate your input.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Well, things are going well on the build. Hold up now on the control panel.

Was able to take advantage of NB's 10% off sale for all the kettles, and Blichmann Bling Bling! Supposed to arrive tomorrow.

With respect to the wiring and the control panel, I've got the wiring diagram done. I just need to figure out the control panel.

I'm using some different PIDs than the LOVE units. But otherwise pretty much the same spark setup here.

I've drawn up the basic mounting plan of the switches, and controllers. The Bus strips, and the transformer, and the Spark modules however do not need to be mounted on the control panel. They could go into an enclosure. It gets tricky to plan this because of depth issues, and those spark modules and transformers are pretty big.

Not quite sure what to do at this point. Also a concern is wire routing to avoid exposing the wiring to too much heat. I absolutely want a enclosure for the panel and wiring to avoid accidental shock, AND I want to figure a Easy way to plug it all in to my electric outlet.

TD

 

[kladue]

Why not put the spark modules in a seperate box on the back side and route 1 common for all modules and 1 switched power wire to each for ignition.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Here is a wiring diagram for the ignition modules and a love controllerhttp://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/Ignition#5420037998508461298, just change the terminal numbers on controller to match you controller NO-COM connections. As to the permatex #2, it should be availlable at an autoparts store, make sure you have some rubbing alcohol available to remove it from things it is not supposed to get on. For the flex gas connections you can use the water heater gas connector flexes as they are equiped with adapters that are 1/2" NPT by 3/8" flare, remove one adapter and it should connect to the gas fitting.
Mounting of the ignition modules is not gravity dependant, just needs to be positioned so a spill will not fill enclosure, as to the switches, set them for no purge delay and 15 second pilot trial. If pilot goes out the spark starts up, main fuel closes, and if no pilot fire detected the pilot valve closes and spark stops, cycle power to module and it will start ignition cycle again. The option plug should be left alone as there is no air flow switch associated with an exhauster like those found on high efficiency furnaces.

Some of the gas control units will have a maximum of 3 cycles no flame sensor detection then shut down the system, White Rodgers comes to mind. Some of their units have a carbide glow ignition unit.