Sparging and efficiency

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Beau815

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Ive done 3-4 AG batches and my efficiency is never good, i calculated correctly, i believe, and got about 56% Now my question is, which i have not found in all my reading. How long is a sparge supposed to take? I heard just open up and let it drain fast. I used to drain, refill and sit 15 min and drain again.... last time i tried a pathetic sparge by using something to deflect the water as I sprinkled it in... at what i think was about the same rate as it wa coming out. Is batch sparging ok? Does sparging with an arm make efficiency ALOT better? I have been heating up water in the kettle prior to sparging then putting in my ale pail then sprinkling that on top. I only do 5 gallon batches, my mash tun is ten gallons. I also did not do EXACTLY 1.25L water per pound. No idea how id measure that. I put in maybe 3 gallons of water in 15 lbs of grain. Does the amt of water, too much or too little affect efficiency really bad? I had a few inches on top of grain in 60 min mash at 152 degrees. The grain had a good crush. Not sure why I suck. My equipment works fine, its human error just dont know what. Maybe all of the above?
 
I routinely get efficiency in the 80s with batch sparging, you should try it, it's simple and effective.
 
Did you check your OG into the Kettle before boil and if so was it as expected?

From what I have been told (I am just starting AG 3 batches now), is that you can't really go slow enough with flysparge. On a (5) gallon end volume, expect to spend 45 to 60 minutes doing the sparge itself and your final OG coming out of the mash should be around 1.010.

BB
 
Sparging shoud be quite slow. For fly sparge you want to maintain water above the grain bed at all times and be carefull to avoid channeling. You need to measure your strike water to equal somewhere around 1.5 qt/lb. Mark your vessel your are heating your strike water in or your spoon to measure.

My first few all grain batches were a bit low on efficiency. I was batch sparging then and got a tip to stir the mash every 20 minutes. Got everything right on track for me.
 
Sparging should be slow for fly sparging. For batch sparging I don't think it needs to be so slow. It might be your crush not the sparge. You may also want to post your numbers. Maybe the math is wrong....
 
From what i read people get 5% better efficiency with fly sparging. I like the easiness of batch and got 80% the last time. My crush was also way better, very consistent, no whole grains, some flour. I did the same thing it sounds like you were doing, drain off the first running, add sparge water, let it sit for 15 minutes ( i go 30 sometimes) and then running that off.
 
With respect to your efficiency, you are using much too little water for your strike. By increasing your water to grain ratio, you will improve efficiency by quote a bit. If you have 15 pounds of grain, and you are using only three gallons (12 quarts) of strike water you are working with .8 quarts per pound of grain. This results in way too thick a mash. I have a 10 gallon mash tun, and like you I brew 5 gallon batches. I usually go with 1.4 quarts per pound. I stir the mash every 20 minutes, I mash out using a calculated amount of boiling water, let rest, and then I drain to my kettle. After collecting half of boil volume, I add 172F water, rest, and collect remaining volume. I routinely get 75% efficiency.
 
Sparging shoud be quite slow. For fly sparge you want to maintain water above the grain bed at all times and be carefull to avoid channeling. You need to measure your strike water to equal somewhere around 1.5 qt/lb. Mark your vessel your are heating your strike water in or your spoon to measure.

My first few all grain batches were a bit low on efficiency. I was batch sparging then and got a tip to stir the mash every 20 minutes. Got everything right on track for me.

+1 on stirring every 20 minutes during the mash. It raised m effiency about 18 points.
 
There's a lot of factors involved with efficiency, including the PH of your mash.
I'm getting 80% efficiency by using a mash ratio of 1.5L/lb grain with 5.2 stabalizer. It takes me 60 minutes to collect 7 gallons fly sparging at 170-175 degrees. There's a sticky in this forum related to this topic -take a look.
 
Using 3g water for 15 lbs grain is very thick. With that thickness, you would have difficulty wetting the grains, which would result in low efficiency. I usually use a thick mash of 1 qt per lb, but that would be 3.75g.
I'd start by getting an accurate way to measure your water. Pyrex measuring jugs are good for small amounts, but I would lose count measuring out gallons using one of them.
I have a 1 gallon container, marked in pints which is much easier. A gallon milk container would also work. You could make a dip stick for each container, and calibrate it by filling the container with carefully measured volumes of water.
For sparging, it depends how you do it.
If you fly sparge (slowly adding water to the top of the grain bed while draining out at the same rate), you need to take your time. As others have said, 60 minutes sparging for 5g is not unreasonable. For stronger beers, I have often taken 90 - 100 minutes to sparge. With fly sparging, you also need something like a false bottom that collects wort evenly across the whole of the bottom of the MLT. You could also use a manifold with cross members as mentioned in http://www.howtobrew.com/appendices/appendixD-1.html. If you use a braid, use a long braid that meanders around the bottom of the MLT, otherwise you will get channeling.
On the other hand, if you batch sparge, the collection mechanism doesn't matter so much, and you don't need to do it slowly. With batch sparging, you drain your first runnings, then add a batch of sparge water, stir well, let is settle for a few minutes, and then drain. Some people do a single batch sparge, others do two. If you do more than one sparge, then try to get the volumes of each batch approximately equal. With batch sparging, the sugars are dissolved by the stirring of each batch of sparge water, rather than being dissolved as the sparge water gently percolates through the grain bed; so stirring the water into the grain is very important.
With good technique, there should be very little difference in efficiency between batch and fly sparging.
No matter how you sparge, it is best to get the temperature of the grain bed up to 168 - 170F. I found that this was impossible with a fly sparge unless I did a mash out by adding a gallon or so of near boiling water and stirring it in well before starting the sparge. For me, this resulted in a 10% increase in efficiency. I suspect that part of this increase was caused by having the grain bed at the correct temperature, and the rest was caused by stirring the mash out water which dissolved a lot of the sugars before starting the sparge.

Hope this helps.

-a.
 
One thing I've never understood is why so many homebrewers use super-thick mashes. A thin mash (5:1 to 7:1 by weight) makes for better temperature retention and enzyme circulation. With a 60 minute mash, the fact that the enzymes are diluted and conversion is slower, is a moot point.
 
From what i read people get 5% better efficiency with fly sparging. I like the easiness of batch and got 80% the last time. My crush was also way better, very consistent, no whole grains, some flour. I did the same thing it sounds like you were doing, drain off the first running, add sparge water, let it sit for 15 minutes ( i go 30 sometimes) and then running that off.

Not necessarily true that you get better efficiency fly sparging. In a perfect system you might, but I know of very few perfect systems!

Crush is the #1 factor that I've found in efficiency. In fly sparging, lauter system design makes a big difference, too.
 
One thing I've never understood is why so many homebrewers use super-thick mashes. A thin mash (5:1 to 7:1 by weight) makes for better temperature retention and enzyme circulation. With a 60 minute mash, the fact that the enzymes are diluted and conversion is slower, is a moot point.
Mash thickness does have a noticeable effect on the character of the beer when you get below about 1.1 qts per lb. Thick mashes are traditional for British brews.

-a.
 
Thanks for all the responses! I will definitely begin stirring mash every 20 min. I think ill stick with batch sparging using 170 deg water. I do have a foot long straight braid, maybe i need a longer one that covers more of the bottom to avoid channeling. All your feedback helps!
 
Thanks for all the responses! I will definitely begin stirring mash every 20 min. I think ill stick with batch sparging using 170 deg water. I do have a foot long straight braid, maybe i need a longer one that covers more of the bottom to avoid channeling. All your feedback helps!
Channeling shouldn't be an issue if you are batch sparging. Your braid should be fine.
 
I'd agree with batch sparging with a braid and that channeling shouldn't be an issue, but like Denny, I am baffled about stirring the sparge (unless the grain was not properly mixed with the strike water before starting the mash). If you do stir, keep an eye on the mash temperature. Stirring will cause it to cool down.
Do yourself a favor and measure the grain bed temperature while you are sparging with 170F water. You will find it is considerably below the optimum temperature of 168 - 170F. This could cause a problem with a stuck sparge with some grain bills, and may cause some efficiency problems as sugar is more soluble in hotter water than cooler. This would be more of a problem with fly sparging than batch, because the mechanical action of stirring the sparge water with a batch sparge will dissolve more of the sugars.

-a.
 
...I'd start by getting an accurate way to measure your water. Pyrex measuring jugs are good for small amounts, but I would lose count measuring out gallons using one of them.
I have a 1 gallon container, marked in pints which is much easier. A gallon milk container would also work. You could make a dip stick for each container, and calibrate it by filling the container with carefully measured volumes of water....

-a.

Sorry for jacking this thread but I wanted to ask an additional question pertaining to efficiency using the measured volume. AJF mentions figuring how to measure the amount in your kettle by using a calibrated amount (see above). I have done this and produced a stick to hang in the keggle showing 1,2,3, etc gallons. The issue I have is how this stick is calibrated. Since it was done using room temperature tap water (60 F) I notice quite a bit of volumetic expansion when measuring my Pre-Boil amounts at an elevated temperature (160 - 170 F) after sparge. The same thing happens when determining the final volume right at the end of boil. In addition to this volumetric expansion, you also have the issue with the rolling boil. I know a sight glass would certainly help the rolling boil issue however you still have the volumetric issue. How do you take this into account, or is it just one of those things that you stay if I need 6 gallons hot, then make sure you have 6.5. Thanks for your comments.

BB
 
If you need to calibrate for temperature, you can use http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/water-density-specific-weight-d_595.html to make the corrections. The volume will shrink by about 4% from boiling to pitching temperature which is about 1.6 pints for a 5 gallon batch.
I just know how much I need in the kettle at sparge temperature to ensure I end up with a full batch, and ensure that I don't start the boil with less than that amount. I then boil for the required time, and drain through the CFC into a carboy which I etched with gallon markings (at room temperature) from 1 - 5 gallons, and an extra two markings at 5.25 and 5.5 gallons. With that, I can judge the final volume to less than a pint, and that's more accurate than necessary.

-a.
 
So using your Toolbox link, you can get a conservation of mass calculation at a specific volume and temperture. Using that same mass (lbs in my case), you can then recalculate your new volume at that elevated temperature. Knowing that new volume will give you an additional height assuming a constant cylinder area for your keg.

I can see that for a large batch (10 gallons +), this could be a significant change (0.54" at 212 F).

Thanks,
BB
 
I get mid-80's consistently fly sparging in a 10g igloo w/ ss false bottom...I stir only once 30 min in (besides dough in of course)...
 
how long should you stir at dough in? i swirred a couple times... made me think i wasted a day sawing and sanding a sweet mash paddle for nothing. Should I be stirring a good 5 min or something?
 
No need to stir for 5 minutes. Just be sure to stir thoroughly (about a minute) at the bottom and outer edges. I started doing a few 10 gallon batches recently and found out the hard way that my stir spoon wasn't long enough...hot!:eek: I stir again at 30 minutes to break up any (I think they call them dough balls) that form, and the last batch I got 88% efficiency.
 
how long should you stir at dough in? i swirred a couple times... made me think i wasted a day sawing and sanding a sweet mash paddle for nothing. Should I be stirring a good 5 min or something?

I stir until I get the same reading at every location and depth I place my thermometer. Takes maybe 3-5 min.
 
I usually go with 1.4 quarts per pound. I stir the mash every 20 minutes, I mash out using a calculated amount of boiling water, let rest, and then I drain to my kettle. After collecting half of boil volume, I add 172F water, rest, and collect remaining volume. I routinely get 75% efficiency.

Just to make sure I'm reading this correctly....

You stop your first runnings before you've completely drained your tun, and then add the rest of your sparge water?

I'm looking at doing a pretty large beer, (14 lbs of grain), and at 1.25 quarts per pound, there's 4.375 gallons in the mash. With 1.5 gallons of boiling mash out water, that makes almost 6 gallons before the first runnings, with only 2.5 to sparge with before I hit my 6.3 gallon pre boil volume.

I was a little concerned with sparging 14 pounds of grain with so little water, but using your method, there would be more liquid in the tun for the second runnings, since I'd only run off about 3 gallons for the first lauter.

Is this correct?

Anyone see a problem with this method?
 
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