Southern Tier Pumking Clone??

[sivdrinks]

I'll say the GC extract amount of 1 tsp is too much, maybe try half or even a quarter of that. My main issue isn't the flavor it's that it leaves a coating in my mouth. Get both extracts and experiment in bottles. Next year I'm just gonna add Graham crackers to the mash.

 

[cotillion]

So here is a modified version of the recipe from page 20, trying to take into account the comments made.

Basically dropped Lactose to 2oz, changed grain to only 2 row and caramel 60 (seems to be what ST uses) with a 158+ mash.

Dropped GC extract to .25 tsp (still considering a mix of this and the vanilla butter & nut stuff, but we will see)

Dropped cinnamon to 1 stick, vanilla 2 beans in normal vodka.

Fermentables:
15 lbs 2-Row American Pale Malt
1 lb Caramel 60
2 lbs pumpkin (Canned)

3/4 lb Demerara Sugar (added to boil after hot break)
1/4 lb Light Brown Sugar (added to boil after hot break)

Hops:
3/4 oz Magnum Hops @ 60 min
1/4 oz Sterling @ 15 min

Additives:
2 oz Lactose @ 15 min
1/2 tsp Yeast Nutrient @ 10 min
1 Whirlfloc Tab @ 10 min
2 tbsp fine chopped candied ginger @ 5 min
1 Ceylon cinnamon sticks (real cinnamon sticks ordered online)
1/2 tsp whole cloves @ 5 min
1/2 tsp nutmeg @ 5 min
1/2 tsp Allspice @ 5 min

Added to Secondary:
2 Madagascar Vanilla Beans (2 fresh beans split down middle, scraped and soaked in 4 oz vodka for 2 weeks - Vodka added to secondary)
1 tsp. Pumpkin Pie Spice
.25 tsp. Capella water soluble Graham Cracker Extract (purchased online and added to secondary)

Yeast:
2 packs Safeale US-05

Mashed at ~160 degrees for 90 minutes
Boiled for 60 minutes.




Problems that I haven't thought of here?

 

[sivdrinks]

I wouldn't drop the Victory.

 

[cotillion]

I wouldn't drop the Victory.

So you'd leave the caramel 60 instead of the crystal and add back in what, 1lb of victory? Maybe drop the caramel 60 to 12oz?

Also, what is your reasoning for the victory? I am actually having trouble finding my source that said ST uses 2 row and caramel...so maybe I'm mistaken

 

[Firebat138]

Wow, had this yesterday for lunch... lol... Fantastic... thought it would taste strong, but it tasted like dessert... ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC!!!

 

[sivdrinks]

So you'd leave the caramel 60 instead of the crystal and add back in what, 1lb of victory? Maybe drop the caramel 60 to 12oz?

Also, what is your reasoning for the victory? I am actually having trouble finding my source that said ST uses 2 row and caramel...so maybe I'm mistaken

Ok, didn't know they were giving exact ingredients (looking bottom of page 20). I really have no idea then!

 

[cotillion]

Ok, didn't know they were giving exact ingredients (looking bottom of page 20). I really have no idea then!

Man, I am not even close to sure either way. I know the ST site says it uses only two types of grain, and somewhere I read that they use caramel and not crystal (not that I really know the difference).

But now I can't find that source on the caramel tidbit. Either way, the page 20 recipe does have 3 grains, which seems suspect.

 

[hopbrad]

i've been watching this thread for a while, and i am a little troubled by the huge differences between "this is almost an exact clone" and "this isnt even close."

i am thinking about working from the recipe from page 20, but instead using 1 can of the pumpkin sludge (perhaps coated with honey and baked?), 2 cinnamon sticks, 2 vanilla beans in unflavored vodka and .25 tsp of the graham cracker extract.

am i missing anything else here?

bake with some brown sugar, pumpkin pie spice and some honey. youll want to eat all of it right out of the tray.
go light on the vanilla. maybe use 2 oz of vodka/rum with 1 bean. thats my main complaint on mine, and the fact that its taking longer than normal to carb up. i only used 1 packet of us-05 tho. im guessing that might be the reason.

 

[TyTanium]

Has anyone considered yeast character for getting the graham cracker crust aroma? Just fermented mine with WY1469 Yorkshire and the aroma is indistinguishable from Pumking. The taste is darn close too. I think the ginger and the nutmeg with the yeast character drive that warm, bready crust flavor & aroma. The oats help for the mouthfeel too.

Here's what I did and it's a close enough clone for me. The only thing that's different is the bitterness/hop character. And mine doesn't have that subtle artificial aroma either.

TyTanium's Pumpkin King
1.084 // 1.020
10 lbs Pale Ale
1 lb Munich
1 lb Victory
0.75 C60
1 lb Flaked Oats
1.75 Pumpkin puree, baked, dissolved into strike water

Mash @156

1 oz Willamette @ 60
0.5 oz Willamette @ 20

Spices at flameout, once chilled to 160.

2 tsp Ginger
1 tsp Cinnamon
1/2 nutmeg seed, freshly grated
0.5 tsp Allspice
0.25 tsp whole cloves

Fermented @ 64°F, ramped up to 72°F as fermentation slowed. Bottled at 2 weeks w/ 1 tbsp (0.5 oz) vanilla extract.

 

[SpeedYellow]

...Here's what I did and it's a close enough clone for me. ...

Hmmm. Since you're like 1-2 miles from me, I may need to see for myself. You know, confirm your findings.

 

[TyTanium]

Hmmm. Since you're like 1-2 miles from me, I may need to see for myself. You know, confirm your findings.

Haha, a 2nd opinion would be great. Shoot me a PM and we can set up a swap or something.

 

[cotillion]

Interesting stuff. Have you done a side by side with them?

In reference to an earlier post of mine - I just bought a bottle, and it says the malts are 2 row and caramel. Hops are magnum (kettle) and sterling (aroma). So I do think I will be sticking to just the 2row and c60. The rest will just have to be a crapshoot.

 

[TyTanium]

No side by side, already drank my commercial version this year. And now that I have 5 gallons of mine that I love, I'm not gonna buy any more.

So it's not a triple-blind statistically-significant clone, it's just has all the things I remember loving about the original, for what that's worth.

 

[Taliesin]

Keep in mind too that much of what we use specialty malts for can be done by varying mash temperature. I've not used Victory specifically, but assuming the grain lists on the bottle are correct, the one thing (aside from their spice extracts) that we don't have is their mash procedure.

GREAT thoughts on the yeast profile, BTW. I think that might be the key to the crust flavor, just from thinking about it.

 

[Chug]

Well, I was going to do a side by side with the "clone" I made from page 20 and the real thing, but now I feel it would be a waste of time. It's nothing even remotely close to Pumking. I had one last night, been in bottles for over 7 weeks. Not good. The graham cracker extract ruined it, it's developed a strange metallic flavor and the vanilla is also over the top. I can't even get any pumpkin flavors out of it, just twangy, metallic, vanilla. Not very happy after sinking all that time and money into it. I do recall it tasting pretty good when I pulled samples before adding the secondary additions so I know the extract is mostly at fault here.

 

[nickmv]

Yeah dont use graham cracker. And if you use the vanilla butter and nut flavoring, BE CAREFUL!

I added 1/4 tsp to a brown ale and it's heavy on the flavoring. I'd start with 1/16 of a tsp.

 

[Chug]

Yeah dont use graham cracker. And if you use the vanilla butter and nut flavoring, BE CAREFUL!

I added 1/4 tsp to a brown ale and it's heavy on the flavoring. I'd start with 1/16 of a tsp.

But the flavor from the vanilla butter nut is pretty reminiscent to the likes of Pumking?

 

[sivdrinks]

O just bottled/legged my batch with the extract, I'll report back in 2 weeks.

 

[troyh]

I brewed this today, essentially the page 20 recipe. I screwed up with the cinnamon, though: my software doesn't let me enter "3 sticks" of cinnamon so I entered "3 oz" weeks ago assuming I'd double-check it before I brewed. I didn't, being stupid, and put 3 oz of cinnamon in, which is a lot of cinnamon!

Surprisingly, it doesn't smell like there's too much cinnamon, most was left in the kettle. It tastes fantastic too. Looking forward to this in late October.

Ended up with an OG of 1.083.

 

[jakesz28]

I'm giving this a go today. Kind of using my own recipe based of the sum of these. 95% two row and 5% ctystal 50/60* L, because that's what I have. The worst part is out of the 10 pounds or so of hops I have I don't have the ones listed in this thread. So not sure what I'm going to use yet. Any thoughts for a substitute for magnum and sterling? I don't have saaz either.

 

[BuffaloBeer1]

Well I can safely say that this is a very delicious beer. I cracked the first one open yesterday, and shared with 2 others; we reached consensus. I used the recipe based on pg. 20. It is also evident that this is in no way a clone of ST Pumpking. I had one side by side. The color is right on, but there is definitely not the graham cracker, vanilla, or much cinnamon in the ST beer. That being said, I am really enjoying all of those flavors in this beer; the vanilla compliments it very well. Oak would only enhance this even more. I used a full tsp of the Graham cracker extract; thankfully I have not detected any of the metallic or other off flavors that others have noted.

For what it's worth, I feel the actual clone might need less to none of the Victory, more of some kind of crystal/caramel malt, and a mash temp of 156-158. I would also drop the extract, vanilla, and add some more of all of the spices (for a clone, that is).

Thank you all who have helped this process along. I will continue to enjoy the fruits of your labor this fall.

 

[jakesz28]

I was going to go with 15 lbs of two row and 3/4 lb crystal 50/60L. That is basically what others have recommended in here. Going with 1tsp of nutmeg, all spice, and pumpkin spice. I think I will add some butter vanilla extract. I also have fresh butternut squash instead of pumpkin in the mash. I'm going with a mash temp of 158* F.

The hops since I don't have what I need I'm going with 1/2 oz chinock and 1/2 oz perle.

 

[rexbanner]

I had a bomber of this beer on Friday. Without a doubt the single worst beer I have ever had. I don't see how anyone could possibly like the one I had. Spiced beyond all belief, with a wretched, tongue-raking flavor. Do they have quality control issues? I know that keeping pumpkin beers consistent is tough, I have had some good and some pretty bad Punkin Ales.

 

[cotillion]

I'm giving this a go today. Kind of using my own recipe based of the sum of these. 95% two row and 5% ctystal 50/60* L, because that's what I have. The worst part is out of the 10 pounds or so of hops I have I don't have the ones listed in this thread. So not sure what I'm going to use yet. Any thoughts for a substitute for magnum and sterling? I don't have saaz either.

Supposedly Lublin for Sterling and Horizon or Newport for Magnum.

At least according to this http://www.brew365.com/hop_substitution_chart.php

 

[bnmir]

I just kegged mine. Based on page 20 recipe with a few changes. WLP002 English Ale, 32oz of canned pumpkin in the mash, 1lb of honey malt, mashed at 156, no lactose, Goldings and Northern brewer hops (what I had). 2 cinnamon stick in boil and 1tbs candied ginger, 1/4 tsp allspice, 1/4 tsp fresh nutmeg, 1/2 lb demerara sugar 1/2 lb light brown sugar. 3 vanilla beans in secondary,1 tsp pumpkin pie spice blend, 7 drops of graham cracker extract in 5g.
I like it. Not quite ST, but in the ballpark and a very nice spiced beer with a beautiful color. Would like a little more sweetness but I cant tolerate lactose. The mash and yeast enhance the breadiness and left some sweetness (fg 1.013), and I think muted some of the spices.
I would make this again with a little more spice.

 

[MZRIS]

I had a bomber of this beer on Friday. Without a doubt the single worst beer I have ever had. I don't see how anyone could possibly like the one I had. Spiced beyond all belief, with a wretched, tongue-raking flavor. Do they have quality control issues? I know that keeping pumpkin beers consistent is tough, I have had some good and some pretty bad Punkin Ales.

Thank god at least there is one less person drinking up my beer!!

 

[PoconoParadiso]

Brewed a partial mash version of this on Sunday using Cannondale's recipe with 10 lbs Alexanders pale malt extract in place of the 2 row. Did 3 lbs of Libby's canned pumpkin coated in orange blossom honey and brown sugar baked at 350 for 45 minutes. I also subbed the Wyeast 1469 Yorkshire a la TyTanium. I'm debating the graham cracker or vanilla butternut extracts, though those seem risky. I am however expecting my first 5 gallon oak barrel as a gift, of which I do think I will make this beer's home for a week or so...

 

[TyTanium]

Cool. I'm loving the Yorkshire yeast. Hope you do too!

 

[nickmv]

Brewed a partial mash version of this on Sunday using Cannondale's recipe with 10 lbs Alexanders pale malt extract in place of the 2 row. Did 3 lbs of Libby's canned pumpkin coated in orange blossom honey and brown sugar baked at 350 for 45 minutes. I also subbed the Wyeast 1469 Yorkshire a la TyTanium. I'm debating the graham cracker or vanilla butternut extracts, though those seem risky. I am however expecting my first 5 gallon oak barrel as a gift, of which I do think I will make this beer's home for a week or so...

You'll be OK adding the extracts. Just be VERY careful. Add them by the drop if you have to. I added mainly the butter nut, but also put 5-6 drops of graham cracker in as well. The good thing is that the spices dominate the taste, so it takes a bit of effort to really ruin it.

 

[stblindtiger]

Is this normal? I made 12 gallons so I was going to add 4 vanilla beans to the secondary. I only let them sit in about 2 ounces (maybe) of vodka with the ground cinnamon, and I took a look at it today (after about a week or so) and it looked like there was a blob in it, so I reached in and found this???? WTF? I didn't sanitize anything because I figured the vodka would do that, but there isn't any way I'm dumping any of this nastiness in my beer!!!

That is not a full bean btw... I chopped up and split all the beans before adding to con and vodka... It has the consistency of flubber!