Sour Swap #2

[TrickyDick]

I agree. It looks sick.. And that was a pitch of roeselare blend into primary! In my second sour brew, I've been adding dregs of various sour beers. No great pellicle there yet. Everyone notice that this month BYO & Zymurgy issues both have a sour beer focus? I think its about time.

TD

 

[absoluthamm]

Yea, it's kinda indicative of the culture right now... (See what I did there? Lol)

 

[TrickyDick]

So I tried a couple of the beers in my box.
I really liked the Jackie O IPA, Three Floyds Alpha King, and there was another can of something (which I liked best of the three but can't recall the name of it) else which really good.
I'm saving the Rivertown sour for a while and ditto on the other Crooked Stave sours. I may crack open the transatlantic Kriek soon. I haven't been able to find that one for a while. I would have stocked up had I known how good it was.

By the way, since we all like sour beers here, and maybe this is covered in another thread, how many of you are serving sour homebrew from kegs? I am REALLY concerned about infecting my lines, which would be very costly to replace in my draft setup as I'd have to hire a pro to come and change them out. I truly HATE bottling but not really wanting to spoil my lines. half tempted to build another kegerator for serving sours. Also, any spectacular homebrew recipes for sour beer?

TD

 

[blizzard]

I have one tap dedicated to sours. That has been a good compromise for me. I suspect you could clean them well enough to prevent infections, since plenty of bars serve both, but I realize our systems don't see quite as much use or professional cleaning as theirs.

 

[absoluthamm]

Once my sour is done, I plan on marking everything in a bright colored tape that touches any bugs just as a reminder to only use it for that from then on out, or go into hardcore clean mode.

 

[coldcrash]

I don't keg sours, but I know some people use pin locks for their sours, ball locks for their clean beers, so that everything stays separate.

 

[jmcm_brew]

I write in sharpie sour on everything mine have touched.. Haven't kegged one yet though.. I would think with a lot of cleaning/soaking and the low temperature of the keezer you would be fine going back to regular beer after a sour.. If not it might make for a fun soured ipa.. Win win lol


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[TrickyDick]

My bud from Atlanta called me to day about Westbrook Gose. I've got 18 cans now! He also grabbed me some Hanssens Gueuze and Kriek which I've never had before or even seen for sale.

TD

 

[absoluthamm]

Jealous on that gose

 

[TrickyDick]

Never had it before. I'll reserve a few cans for future sour swaps!

 

[blizzard]

Never had it before. I'll reserve a few cans for future sour swaps!

Drink one! Immediately! Super tasty stuff.

 

[TrickyDick]

I actually don't have it yet. Got to wait for him to bring it to town. Drank an almanac golden gate gose tonight instead.


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[blizzard]

I actually don't have it yet. Got to wait for him to bring it to town. Drank an almanac golden gate gose tonight instead.


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I won't feel too bad for ya then.

 

[electrolight]

Guys and gals, I just thought I'd share some sour beer love. I tried the JK cerveza de temperanillo and igotsands' framboise and wow! What great beer! I love this swap. It inspired me do brew my first sour beer this weekend using some of these dregs.

Now I'm sitting on my deck in the sun tending to my hop garden and had a glass of Riserva (just found for the 1st time!) and now some of this amazing kriek.
View attachment 194944
Life is good.


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Now I've got so e RU 55 dregs. Did I mention SWMBO is out of town?
View attachment 194950


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So what recipe did you end up using with which dregs?

Or did you just dump all the dregs in together? And I hear you, I had just started brewing when I tried my first fruity sour and I was so thoroughly inspired I bought bottles for just the dregs and started my own Atrial Rubicite clone! (I emailed the headbrewmaster of JK for the recipe (thinking I'd never get a response) and he was so incredibly transparent he let me know all the numbers I needed to replicate the beer!)

So it takes about 14-16 months and I'm on month 3 twitching because I can't wait.

Anyhow.... what recipe did you end up using?

 

[TrickyDick]

So what recipe did you end up using with which dregs?

Or did you just dump all the dregs in together? And I hear you, I had just started brewing when I tried my first fruity sour and I was so thoroughly inspired I bought bottles for just the dregs and started my own Atrial Rubicite clone! (I emailed the headbrewmaster of JK for the recipe (thinking I'd never get a response) and he was so incredibly transparent he let me know all the numbers I needed to replicate the beer!)

So it takes about 14-16 months and I'm on month 3 twitching because I can't wait.

Anyhow.... what recipe did you end up using?

So would you car to share that recipe from JK??

TD

 

[electrolight]

I was thinking about making a separate thread to post it, but I'm not sure if If I was told it in confidence or not. So I shy'd away from it.

As far as posting it here, I hate when people have "secrets" and don't share them, especially when they are goodies... And given the fact that he was so transparent, I don't think its a super super trade secret.

So I'll go ah.ead and post his responses (I replied back with some questions a few times) in confidence, knowing that pretty much just us involved in the sour swap will even read it... and we will only use it for our own homebrewing concoctions.


"Hi _____,

Thanks for your kind words and interest. Atrial Rubicite is a pretty simple beer. We make a simple wort of pilsner and malted wheat (about 80%/20%) using a single infusion mash, we hop during the boil to about 10 IBU, we ferment for a month in stainless steel with our house culture of microorganisms, then rack to oak for extended aging (about 6 to 12 months). We then add raspberries from Washington, USA at a ratio of about 2.5 lbs. per gallon and allow refermentation to occur over the course of about 2-3 months. We then rack the beer off the fruit and bottle condition. I hope that helps!

Cheers,

Hi _____,

The souring bacteria and yeast are combined in one slurry that's pitched for primary fermentation. Nothing is added incrementally. The culture we use is composed of several dozen different types of saccharomyces, brett, lacto, pedio. My recommendation would be to culture dregs from one of our bottles if that's a possibility.

Cheers,

Hi _____,

The initial primary fermentation was in a stainless steel, conical tank. There's not much access, if any, to outside air. We start primary fermentation at 72F and let the beer free rise into the 80s. We keep the barrels at 60F. We did an initial "punch down" period with fruit in the barrel. Punch downs are a wine making technique. We then racked the beer off the fruit for further aging and fermentation. We put a loose fitting lid on the barrels between punch downs. Our mash was single infusion. We've found that our sour beers require a little more dextrose than normal. We think the best way to combat acetobacter is temperature. We've had good results keeping it in check by temperature controlling our barrel room at 60F. I hope this helps. If I missed anything, just ask.

Cheers. "

In summary:

Pilsner: 80 %
Malted Wheat: 20 %
Hops: 10 IBU
Yeast: Souring and regular yeast pitched all at once

Timetable: 1 month steel fermenters, 6-12 months oak barrels, 3 month re-fermentation once fruit is added (2.5 lbs per gallon), 1.5 months bottle conditioned.

 

[TrickyDick]

Awesome info. Seems basic enough. The devil is in the detail obviously.


TD


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[electrolight]

Yeah,

I finished a starter to grow the dregs into a larger size (first starter I've ever made that I'm excited to try!) This weekend I'll be pitching the starter into a 5 gallon batch!

Hopefully, this time next year, I'll have sent someone an Atrial Rubicite clone of mine in their box!

 

[TrickyDick]

Very cool! I've done two sour brews so far and one Brett primary beer (today). Seems to be the current trend which I like. Just missed the local fresh blueberry harvest. Hope to try a blueberry sour sometime.


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[geoffey]

Thanks for sharing! I'll be looking for a good sour recipe to put on my ECY20 yeast cake in July. Maybe this will be it.


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[two_hearted]

So what recipe did you end up using with which dregs?

Or did you just dump all the dregs in together? And I hear you, I had just started brewing when I tried my first fruity sour and I was so thoroughly inspired I bought bottles for just the dregs and started my own Atrial Rubicite clone! (I emailed the headbrewmaster of JK for the recipe (thinking I'd never get a response) and he was so incredibly transparent he let me know all the numbers I needed to replicate the beer!)

So it takes about 14-16 months and I'm on month 3 twitching because I can't wait.

Anyhow.... what recipe did you end up using?

I was thwarted by the LHBS being closed on Mondays. I brewed a nice wit bier with my BIL, but didn't have the right grain on-hand. I've got a small nalgene with the dregs from cerveza de tempranillo, RU55 and the fonteinen oude kriek all mixed together. I don't know if that was a good idea, but I did it. I've got some time off next week, so I'll probably brew then.

I found some great info in the latest zymurgy from Oldsock/Michael Tonsmeire on mashing. Its a really good read if you guys haven't seen it yet.

 

[electrolight]

I was thwarted by the LHBS being closed on Mondays. I brewed a nice wit bier with my BIL, but didn't have the right grain on-hand. I've got a small nalgene with the dregs from cerveza de tempranillo, RU55 and the fonteinen oude kriek all mixed together. I don't know if that was a good idea, but I did it. I've got some time off next week, so I'll probably brew then.

I found some great info in the latest zymurgy from Oldsock/Michael Tonsmeire on mashing. Its a really good read if you guys haven't seen it yet.

Most beers from Jester King utilize the same yeast. I'm quite confident that the Cerveza de Tempranillo and RU55 contain the same yeasties/bugs. I'm not sure about Fonteinen Oude Kriek, but I'd figure that they(yeasties/bugs) will all flourish as soon as you feed them some wort! Should make delicious beer! Good luck!

Once you make the brew, what time frame are you planning from pitch to bottle?

 

[TrickyDick]

Pointing put that 2.5 POUNDS of fruit PER gallon is a crapload of fruit. I'm trying to see if I can nab 25 pounds of blueberries from this years crop, still on the bushes! $3-4 per pound self pick. Hmm I think I'm taking my son blueberry picking this weekend... Sorry family, these 25 pounds are for a sour beer that none of you will like besides me! HAH!

I'm wondering how much of the 5.8% ABV comes form the fruit and how much from the grain...

TD


By the way, do we know anything about the oak barrels? New, used (if so for what), American or French?

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[Indytruks138]

Pointing put that 2.5 POUNDS of fruit PER gallon is a crapload of fruit. I'm trying to see if I can nab 25 pounds of blueberries from this years crop, still on the bushes! $3-4 per pound self pick. Hmm I think I'm taking my son blueberry picking this weekend... Sorry family, these 25 pounds are for a sour beer that none of you will like besides me! HAH!

I'm wondering how much of the 5.8% ABV comes form the fruit and how much from the grain...

TD


By the way, do we know anything about the oak barrels? New, used (if so for what), American or French?

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I can tell you Jester King buys used barrels, both american and french.

 

[barrooze]

I was thinking about making a separate thread to post it, but I'm not sure if If I was told it in confidence or not. So I shy'd away from it.

...

"We make a simple wort of pilsner and malted wheat (about 80%/20%) using a single infusion mash, we hop during the boil to about 10 IBU, we ferment for a month in stainless steel with our house culture of microorganisms, then rack to oak for extended aging (about 6 to 12 months). We then add raspberries from Washington, USA at a ratio of about 2.5 lbs. per gallon and allow refermentation to occur over the course of about 2-3 months."

...

In summary:

Pilsner: 80 %
Malted Wheat: 20 %
Hops: 10 IBU
Yeast: Souring and regular yeast pitched all at once

Timetable: 3 months steal fermenters, 6-12 months oak barrels, 3 month re-fermentation once fruit is added (2.5 lbs per gallon), 1.5 months bottle conditioned.

For 5 gallons:

Grain:
Pilsner 2lbs
Malted Wheat 8lbs​

First off, thank you for posting the communique! That's really helpful in trying to clone this guy. I've got a couple questions regarding your grain bill and your timetable.

From JK, he states "We make a simple wort of pilsner and malted wheat (about 80%/20%)" and you echo that in your summary, though in the Grain Bill you've swapped the two grains. Was that a mistake or a result of later communication/clarification with JK? Also, JK says the beer's in steel for 1 month, then racks to oak for aging. You have 3 months in steel. I'm just trying to clear this up so I don't screw it up when I get around to making this! I feel 3 months in primary will start getting autolysis flavors (or maybe the Brett will start eating the sacch), which I really don't want in this beer. Your thoughts?

Thanks again! I may have to do a split batch of this for the fruit and do half rhubarb! ​

 

[BGBC]

First off, thank you for posting the communique! That's really helpful in trying to clone this guy. I've got a couple questions regarding your grain bill and your timetable.

From JK, he states "We make a simple wort of pilsner and malted wheat (about 80%/20%)" and you echo that in your summary, though in the Grain Bill you've swapped the two grains. Was that a mistake or a result of later communication/clarification with JK? Also, JK says the beer's in steel for 1 month, then racks to oak for aging. You have 3 months in steel. I'm just trying to clear this up so I don't screw it up when I get around to making this! I feel 3 months in primary will start getting autolysis flavors (or maybe the Brett will start eating the sacch), which I really don't want in this beer. Your thoughts?

Thanks again! I may have to do a split batch of this for the fruit and do half rhubarb!

I don't see what you mean about swapping the grains in the grain bill. I see 80% Pilsner/20% Malted Wheat.

In the grand scheme of things for a beer that's going to age for 1-2 years, I don't think the 1-3 months in primary is going to make a huge difference, but I could be wrong.

 

[barrooze]

I don't see what you mean about swapping the grains in the grain bill. I see 80% Pilsner/20% Malted Wheat.

In the grand scheme of things for a beer that's going to age for 1-2 years, I don't think the 1-3 months in primary is going to make a huge difference, but I could be wrong.

electrolight edited his post. It's in my quote. Looks like it was a typo, no big deal.

As for the 3 month primary aging, when you have only sacch fermenting, you can get some autolysis flavors, which are typically not so good. When you have the bacteria as well, they can actually eat the sacch and give different flavors, which CAN be desirable. I was just trying to clarify what the JK Head Brewmaster had said so I can follow their process (it does seem to be working well for them!).

Thanks again, electrolight, for the info! I've got some Bug Farm and Bug County I've been itching to pitch!

 

[TrickyDick]

By the way, speaking of Jester King, I'd love to do a side trade with someone for a few bottles. I don't know how hard it is for some folks to get, but for me its basically near impossible. Only one I have had is Le Petite, which was nice, though generally I prefer something with a little more meat. PM me if anyone is interested.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

electrolight edited his post. It's in my quote. Looks like it was a typo, no big deal.

As for the 3 month primary aging, when you have only sacch fermenting, you can get some autolysis flavors, which are typically not so good. When you have the bacteria as well, they can actually eat the sacch and give different flavors, which CAN be desirable. I was just trying to clarify what the JK Head Brewmaster had said so I can follow their process (it does seem to be working well for them!).

Thanks again, electrolight, for the info! I've got some Bug Farm and Bug County I've been itching to pitch!

Ooh OOh! I would LOVE to get my hands on some of the bug country stuff! Its long sold out from what I can tell. I'm probably going to have to rely on lots and lots of dregs (By the way, what is the best method for keeping dregs until I'm ready to use them?)

I'm planning out a Blueberry sour, trying to source 25# of local fresh small farmed blueberries at the moment. I should know by the end of the week. Was thinking about a 70% Pilsener/20% Malted Wheat/10% Flaked Wheat with half of the Flaked Wheat reserved for adding after reaching mash out temps to preserve some complex food for the bugs. I'll probably have to freeze the berries until I'm ready for them.

TD

 

[electrolight]

Pointing put that 2.5 POUNDS of fruit PER gallon is a crapload of fruit. I'm trying to see if I can nab 25 pounds of blueberries from this years crop, still on the bushes! $3-4 per pound self pick. Hmm I think I'm taking my son blueberry picking this weekend... Sorry family, these 25 pounds are for a sour beer that none of you will like besides me! HAH!

I know! That's why it costs $16 per 500 ml (17 oz) bottle!

I'm wondering how much of the 5.8% ABV comes form the fruit and how much from the grain...

TD

I removed the recipe numbers I posted because I forgot to take this into consideration. I'm not sure, but I'm sure it isn't negligible!

By the way, do we know anything about the oak barrels? New, used (if so for what), American or French?

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I know that they use all kinds for different beers. They only use used barrels because they can save money and they aren't interested in oak flavor. They are interested in creating a nice environment for the bugs. The porosity in the wood allows some (very little) oxygen in. Traditionally this is bad, but the souring bacteria benefits from at least a little. I know they have tried sherry, wine, whisky and others. That said, I have no idea about which barrels correlate with which beers.

First off, thank you for posting the communique! That's really helpful in trying to clone this guy.

Sure thing!

I've got a couple questions regarding your grain bill and your timetable.

From JK, he states "We make a simple wort of pilsner and malted wheat (about 80%/20%)" and you echo that in your summary, though in the Grain Bill you've swapped the two grains. Was that a mistake or a result of later communication/clarification with JK?

That was an error of mine. I copied the emails verbatim so trust that more than me. And there were no further emails. I also forgot to consider the fruit's additional sugars, so the recipe with weights was wrong.

Also, JK says the beer's in steel for 1 month, then racks to oak for aging. You have 3 months in steel. I'm just trying to clear this up so I don't screw it up when I get around to making this! I feel 3 months in primary will start getting autolysis flavors (or maybe the Brett will start eating the sacch), which I really don't want in this beer. Your thoughts?

I was mistaken again lol. The email is correct at 1 month. Though, I doubt autolysis would occure that quickly. I think the accepted point of worry for homebrewers is around the 6 month mark. As far as Brett eating the Sach, I was unaware this was even possible! I'll have to do more research.

Thanks again! I may have to do a split batch of this for the fruit and do half rhubarb!

No problem. Sounds really interesting! Good luck! And let us know how it goes!