Sour/Non-sour Split Batches

[Brif]

Occasionally I'd like to brew split batches where I can get some non-sour ales that will condition quicker, but then use half of the wort to pitch different yeasts, bugs, dregs, and get sours aging as well.

Are there certain styles/recipes that serve this type of situation well?

Ideally there would be some BJCP styles that serve both (so I can continue to tune my system and do some brewing-to-style, but I'm also open to going outside the box.

Suggestions?

Thanks!!
Brian

 

[cactusgarrett]

About a month ago I did double batch of standard saison grainbill. Split the boiled wort into two and pitched French Saison WY3711 into one half, which was on tap on a timeline pretty standard for an ale. I pitched Yeast Bay's Farmhouse Sour blend into the other half. I'm estimating that should be ready in 12 months or so (give or take 3 months). I tasted the sour at the same time i kegged the standard, and it just started showing signs of divergent flavors (funk/sour).

You could take either the standard OR the sour iterations and expand from there, adding various fruits, spices, flavors, etc., which is the main reason I chose the saison style to do this with in the first place.

 

[howamidriving]

Saison is definitely a good style to do this with. I recently did an oude bruin base beer in which the clean half still got some fruit, but both beers turned out nice (just won a 2nd place ribbon for the sour actually).

A couple things to keep in mind though: if you have the equipment you may want to consider mashing/boiling in different vessels. Typically (but not always) you'll want to mash higher for a sour beer to leave some unformentables behind for the bugs. Hopping rate is something else to consider. I try to keep my sours below 15ibus, which would be very low for just about any other style.

 

[Brif]

Both great ideas...thanks!
And, great points on the mash temps and IBUs. There may not be a perfect match for this, but perhaps styles that will offer a little flexibility. Should help get me dialed-in on controlling mash temps.
Maybe Belgian and French styles are the most likely candidates.

Perhaps the best options are Belgian strongs (blonde, golden, and dark) as they seem to offer some flexibility in FG as well as IBUs.

Looking at Witbier and Belgian pale as options as well, maybe just shooting for FG on the higher end of acceptable, and making sure hops stay somewhat restrained.
And there is always flat out experimentation and batches that don't hit my target numbers and become good candidates for reasons of process inconsistency.

 

[cactusgarrett]

A grainbill for a Flanders Red or an Ouid Bruin would be good, too. Those, instead of incorporating the funky blends, could lend themselves nicely to a general amber/brown ale (depending on which sacc you pitch).

 

[radwizard]

Whenever I brew clean beers I brew a little extra to fill a 1 gallon carboy. I often do this between two batches and use dregs according to what I think may work with the ibus I had in the beers. I do this with even with IPA's and rack some off before I do a big flameout addition. I like to use Cascade Dregs when the IBUs seem a bit high.

I've done straight double batches to split between clean and sour as well. Saison's and BDG are two that I liked to do this with.
I have a sour Wit going right now that was split from a clean batch that I am really excited about.

 

[radwizard]

---- opps. double

 

[Brif]

For a Saison, is there an ideal temp to mash at that will allow you to leave something behind for the bugs but still allow a clean saison sacc yeast to dry it out a little on its own? 149-150??

 

[cactusgarrett]

For a Saison, is there an ideal temp to mash at that will allow you to leave something behind for the bugs but still allow a clean saison sacc yeast to dry it out a little on its own? 149-150??

Worst case scenario you could add a bit of lactose after the sacc ferment to give the bugs something to work on. I do this with my Flanders Red, actually, just to ensure the level of sourness i like is achieved.

 

[Brif]

makes sense...thanks!

 

[Grod1]

Worst case scenario you could add a bit of lactose after the sacc ferment to give the bugs something to work on. I do this with my Flanders Red, actually, just to ensure the level of sourness i like is achieved.

you add lactose for the bugs to chew on after the sacc?
do you boil it? what ratios?

 

[cactusgarrett]

you add lactose for the bugs to chew on after the sacc?
do you boil it? what ratios?

Yup - I add it well after the initial sacc ferment is done. This can even be done months after. Add it like anything else post-boil or post-ferment: just toss 1/2 lb into 1 pint of water, boil for 10min, cool, then toss it into the fermenter.

 

[Brif]

So, Lactose is the best choice to add after primary ferm as it is not fully fermentable by the sacc, correct?
Is there some formula or calculator that will help determine how much to add.
for example, If I have 1 gallon of beer that is done with primary and is at 1.011, how much Lactose should I add If I am going to pitch some dregs and age long-term? Do I want to add an amount that would get me up to 1.020 or so?

 

[cactusgarrett]

Not fermentable by sacc at all, right.

Someone PLEASE call my BS if i'm wrong, but to my knowledge, there's no formula/calculator, since each bug does it's own thing differently. I think you can find something that'll tell you "adding X amount of lactose will bump your gravity by Y", but the resulting effect (complexity, level of sourness, level of funk, etc.) after that is too qualitative (versus quantitative), as X amount will do something different with a different strain of one bug (ex. Lacto plantarum vs debrucki), different bug, or blend of bugs. Just can't account for all permutations.

 

[Brif]

Thanks Cactus!! So my next question would be, is 1.011 enough sugar remaining to create some sourness, but...it all depends. I think I may create a new thread with a more appropriate title

 

[Mainer]

Another vote for Saison. Last month I did ten gallons of rye saison, lacto soured half, and put the other half on Belle Saison, then blended them and split again, half onto 8 pounds of local peaches and the other half onto 6.5 pounds of local mulberries. I'm letting them age on the fruit now, but I'm super psyched to see how they come out.

Also, I think it would be fun to do a half-sour English Brown.

 

[Mainer]

So, Lactose is the best choice to add after primary ferm as it is not fully fermentable by the sacc, correct?
Is there some formula or calculator that will help determine how much to add.
for example, If I have 1 gallon of beer that is done with primary and is at 1.011, how much Lactose should I add If I am going to pitch some dregs and age long-term? Do I want to add an amount that would get me up to 1.020 or so?

If you're looking to pitch bugs after sacch, I recommend against lacto. Lacto is strongly inhibited by hops, so even only an ounce of low-alpha hops like Saaz, might prevent you from souring.

For post-fermentation souring, I'd be more likely to use a pedio/brett blend, since they're less impacted by hops. The downside is you'll have to wait longer.

 

[Mainer]

If you're looking to pitch bugs after sacch, I recommend against lacto. Lacto is strongly inhibited by hops, so even only an ounce of low-alpha hops like Saaz, might prevent you from souring.

For post-fermentation souring, I'd be more likely to use a pedio/brett blend, since they're less impacted by hops. The downside is you'll have to wait longer.

Oh, wait, Lactose, not Lactobacillus. Never mind. Ignore the above.