Some Yeasts fart more than others

[safcraft]

So i brew a Belgian dubbel. Not the first time, but the first using a controlled brew and fermentation using the Grainfather Brew Kettle and Grainfather Conical fermenter.

Mash log was:
20min 50C
35min 61C
35min 71C
10min 77C

Pretty fermentable wort, with lots of sugar on the ingredients:
- 4.2Kg Pale
- 0.7Kg CaraMunich2
- 1.45Kg Candi Syrup D180
- 0.7Kg Flaked BArley
-45g Saaz for 60min

Ended up 23L at 1.065 in the fermenter. All good.
Ferment started at 19C, rising to 22C and kept there.
Yeast : WY3787

NOW...the funny part. I used this yeast in the past, but maybe with a less fermentable wort.
It dropped to 1.015 in 5 days....but kept on arilock activity....
It is now on day 12 of primary and airlock shows 1-2 per second !! That is a LOT of bubles.

Does anyone has this kind of Yeast Fart experience for so long ?
I will check gravity tonight...but even if its dropping it was already at 1.015 7 days ago!

Also cannot be the co2 escaping (solely) because this would not cause 1 buble per second for 7 days.

But hey.... this only proves that each family of yeasties has its own behaviour.
Cheers

 

[pdxal]

3787 is notorious for starting fast and causing blow off, then slowing down and chugging along slowly for quite a while. It needs to be warmed up to 75-80 Fahrenheit to finish out, too, or else you will have bottle bombs or over carbonation in the keg. I usually expect a 4-6 week primary fermentation with this yeast.

 

[safcraft]

I already am at 22C for the past 10 days.
I did use this yeast in the past, and prefer to ferment at 22C rather than 25C , as i get a cleaner flavors.

It is now day 15 of primary...and bubles did not slow down.
I measured gravity yesterday at 1.009. Seems to be lowering to dangerous dry levels now....damn...i was going for a sweet litle dubbel of 7%....i am now entering 8% and Tripple territory....

 

[troglodytes]

I used WY3522 for a belgian dark strong that started at 1.095 and finished at 1.012 in about 3 weeks. It went through like 3 stages of blow off. Everytime I thought it was done I would come downstairs two days later to see a krausen reforming and building. Also, smelled so stinky. That batch was in a chest freezer ferm chamber in the basement and I smelled it upstair the second I walked into the house. But you know what, it turned out an amazing brew, probably the best single batch I've ever made.

 

[safcraft]

Day 20 on primary

Raised to 23C 2 days ago.
Bubbles have slowed a little but still strong , maybe 30 per minute.
Gravity is now...... 1.004 !!!
Holly cow this yeast is giving me a hard fight.

 

[safcraft]

Day 23 on primary

Still at 23C (heating fermenter is ON )
Bubbles are now around 15-20 per minute.
Did not check gravity, this yeast is slowing down very sloooowwwly.

Question : should i turn off the heat ? My ambient temperature is around 19C. Or should i keep it at 23C until gravity is terminal ?

I never had such a slow and persisten yeast (and such strange dry beer).

 

[mirthfuldragon]

My experience with 3787 was similar: attenuated very well (1.006), and my BIAB efficiency was a lot higher than I expected (OG 1.080 instead of 1.060), so what should have been a 6% blonde finished as a 9+% tripel. I ramped the temperature all the way to 82° (27.7°C), pitched from a starter, and it finished in six days after filling up 2g of headspace and blowing out the airlock (despite fermcap in the boil).

Fruity esters are just delightful and having it on draft is just dangerously awesome. At 1.004 is should be done. Check the gravity, cold crash, and then bottle/keg.

 

[safcraft]

My experience with 3787 was similar: attenuated very well (1.006), and my BIAB efficiency was a lot higher than I expected (OG 1.080 instead of 1.060), so what should have been a 6% blonde finished as a 9+% tripel. I ramped the temperature all the way to 82° (27.7°C), pitched from a starter, and it finished in six days after filling up 2g of headspace and blowing out the airlock (despite fermcap in the boil).

Fruity esters are just delightful and having it on draft is just dangerously awesome. At 1.004 is should be done. Check the gravity, cold crash, and then bottle/keg.

Do you think i should ramp up from 23C to 27C to try and finish it off?
At 1.004 i imagine that it cant be going much lower....
Nevertheless, with such a long fermentation time, i wonder if i should leave it 1 more week for clean up purposes....

 

[mirthfuldragon]

Taste it and see. I think you are fine as-is. I ramp temperatures on trappist yeast to encourage fruity ester production - it is what Belgian yeasts are known for. After over three weeks, I would be surprised if it drops any more. Let your hydrometer tell you; a stable gravity reading a couple of days apart is the best indicator.

 

[safcraft]

Kind of suspicious about the flavor/taste.
It droppped and stabilized at 1.007 (not 1.004 like i said before, i measured that with a Refractometer and it is much less accurate).

It tastes a bit off, like solvent/medicine flavor. Maybe it will have to mellow out.
I turned the heat off, it is now 20C and stable at ambient temperature.
Bubbles are almost stopped . I will let it rest for 2 weeks in the fermenter and then cold crash and bottle.

 

[safcraft]

Medicine band aid is evident. It has 4 weeks in primary.
I hate to throw it away but i think i will have to.....bandaid is too evident.

I suspect yeast stress caused this. This is the 4th brew that has this bandaid...i am not able to control this....damn..

 

[leonardoreges]

Normally band aid taste is caused by chlorophenols.
Maybe the first thing to check is your water wand how you are cleaning your stuff, as chlorophenols may appear from the reaction of yeast produced phenols and chlorine from cleaning products poorly rinsed of your gear.

 

[safcraft]

Normally band aid taste is caused by chlorophenols.
Maybe the first thing to check is your water wand how you are cleaning your stuff, as chlorophenols may appear from the reaction of yeast produced phenols and chlorine from cleaning products poorly rinsed of your gear.

This is highly unlikely but "it can happen"

- I treat my water for mashing with 1 Campden Tablet, 2h before brewing begins
- I have a Chloramine test set, the values read 0 (ZERO)

I do use tap water for rinsing utensils , and use tap water in my Starsan Bottle !
But a frew drops should not influenciate , unless the chloramines level were HIGH, which they are not.

PLUS: I have made 30 batches of beer. Only 4 came out like this. Same water.

 

[safcraft]

So i decided to take a little experiment in order to investigate this further.

I do this to learn on my brewing methods, and i share this because i think like me, there are many other user that struggle to find the cause of off flavors. Lets see if i can learn from this.

I harvested the yeast slurry from the Dubbel (3787) and ketp it in a sanitized capped beer bottle.

I went and fetched the yeast from the Dubbel i made 2 years ago (YES 2 YEAR OLD yeAST) and made a starter with it. Activity on the starter only 24h later !!! Fermented 1L started only in 48h ! Wow... and it smells nice!

I bought a pack of Nottingham yeast and rehydrated it in water.

Then i made a simple Blond Recipe:

- 4Kg Pils
- 200g Carahell
- 400g Wheat
- 500g Candy Sugar

Hops : Hallertau + EKG + Saaz

OG : 1.053

I splitted the wort in 3 fermenters:

1. 16L + 3787 from 2 years old
2. 5L + 3787 from Dubbel Slurry
3. 5L + Nottingham

This "should" tell me if the "bandaid" is due to Yeast or not.
Plus it should tell me if "bandaid" is from Water or not.

Lets wait and see!

 

[Miraculix]

The local water supplier sometimes increases the amount of chlorine or chloramine significantly for a short amount of time if there is some modification or maintenance being done on the network. Those short spikes can be really really high, so your treatment might not have been sufficient for it. But who knows...

 

[safcraft]

The local water supplier sometimes increases the amount of chlorine or chloramine significantly for a short amount of time if there is some modification or maintenance being done on the network. Those short spikes can be really really high, so your treatment might not have been sufficient for it. But who knows...

True statement, dont know anything from my water company actions.

I am hoping for the one with the 3787 yeast collected from the Dubbel to come out "bandaided"

That way i could blame it all on the yeast stress and be DONE with it.

But who knows....1 week to find out

 

[safcraft]

Interestingly enough, the one with the 3787 Yeast slurry from the Dubbel ( 1 week in the fridge harvested from fermenter) is having a very slow start !!

It is still darker and clearer, slow bubbles and litle gas going up.

(fermenter to the left)

 

[Stakats]

Hi there,any final results from this tryout?

 

[safcraft]

Not final yet. Too soon to confirm, as the belgian yeasts take their time.

Although i have tasted and made some measurements, i am not sure of the results.
I will try sampling at 2 weeks fermentation time, so i can make sure.

Meanwhile :

1. Vessel with Notty is done. FG is 1.008 and NO ODD TASTE PRESENT.

2. Vessel with 3787 from Dubbel Slurry , is nowhere near done , still on 1.026. It is slow and MAY HAVE BANDAID (not sure, very yeasty smell and taste so.....)

3. Vessel with 3787 from 2 years ago slurry , fermented very fast. FG is 1.010 BUT, it is VERY VERY CLOUDY. It looks like it is still fermenting so cloudy it is. This is odd, i would assume it would settle down after fermenting but apparently on day 9 it is still very very cloudy. Same appearance as in previous picture !!! Yellow mud !
Taste : It may or may not have BANDAID. I dont know really, because it is very yeasty. From the vessel it tastes phenolic and medicine....but i placed the sample in the fridge for 24h and it cleared up, and it seemed very subdued in flavor, no longer medicine....so i do not know yet...

 

[safcraft]

While we wait for the yeasts to finish, how about some help with hypothesis?

1. If medicine flavor and smell is due to chloramines and chlorine, can some yeasts react more agressivly than others ? That is, if chorophenols are the responsible and the chloro comes from the water, and the phenols from the yeast, IF a yeast produces more phenols than others, it will be more bandaidy than others.
With this in mind, the 3787 is very phenolic so a lot of chlorophenol, and the Notty is low phenolic, so low on cholophenols.

2. If medicine flavor and smell comes from Yeast Stress, is this "cell" dependent ? So if we have 100 billion cells of yeast, and only 1 billion are stressed, do we get MORE off flavor in a produced beer made from 100 billion cells with 50 billion stressed ?
With this in mind, the 3787 slurry form the Dubbel could be very very stressed, like 90% stressed cells and the 2 year old could be 30% stressed.

Even without knowing the stress threshold (% of stressed yeasts that impart off flavor) , can a MORE % STRESSED yeast slurry offer worse results than a LESS % STRESSED yeast slurry ?

This could explain different results in vessels with the 3787.

 

[Miraculix]

I had similar thoughts like you are stating in point 1. But don't actually know anything reliable to count on...

Never heard about stressed yeast causing bandaid flavour, exclusively heard it in combination with chlorine or chloramine. This doesn't mean that it could not be the result of stress, but my guts say it's chlorine in some form.

 

[safcraft]

I had similar thoughts like you are stating in point 1. But don't actually know anything reliable to count on...

Never heard about stressed yeast causing bandaid flavour, exclusively heard it in combination with chlorine or chloramine. This doesn't mean that it could not be the result of stress, but my guts say it's chlorine in some form.

If this turns out to be nothing more than chloramine/chlorine i am puzzled.
Either my Campden tablets are placebo, or i dont know where to search next.

For the record, i tested my tap water for Total Chlorine with some test strips, and they show around 0.05mg/L. A very low level.

 

[safcraft]

Still lingering about this, i suspected the Yeast stress due to 2 main reasons :

1. This happened 4 times (with more than 25 successfull bathches)
- 2x with Wyeast 3068 (phenolic yeastie)
- 1x with Wyeast 3787 ( phenolic)
- 1x with Wyeast 1214

All these yeasts were puchased in Summer time and had long transit time (7 days).
They arrived with their ice packs defrosted , of course due to heat and 7 days in transit.

2. I took a sample of a medicine flavor beer (made with 3068, hefeweizen recipe) to a local brewery and the Head Brewer said it was Yeast Stress that produced the off flavor.

Now...i see 2 variables here:
- Yeast stressed with heat and long transit times, unrecoverable even with starters
- All these yeasts produce a lot of Phenols that interact with my water and produce a lot of chlorophenols...

Food for thougth....still puzzled...

 

[Miraculix]

Still lingering about this, i suspected the Yeast stress due to 2 main reasons :

1. This happened 4 times (with more than 25 successfull bathches)
- 2x with Wyeast 3068 (phenolic yeastie)
- 1x with Wyeast 3787 ( phenolic)
- 1x with Wyeast 1214

All these yeasts were puchased in Summer time and had long transit time (7 days).
They arrived with their ice packs defrosted , of course due to heat and 7 days in transit.

2. I took a sample of a medicine flavor beer (made with 3068, hefeweizen recipe) to a local brewery and the Head Brewer said it was Yeast Stress that produced the off flavor.

Now...i see 2 variables here:
- Yeast stressed with heat and long transit times, unrecoverable even with starters
- All these yeasts produce a lot of Phenols that interact with my water and produce a lot of chlorophenols...

Food for thougth....still puzzled...

Sounds like a job for....

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=s...B#imgdii=fJeAzPcezvHEtM:&imgrc=oq48zOlGss3E6M:

 

[safcraft]

One more taste test.

1. Notty definitly is OK. I can't swear by wonderfull flavor, but hey, this was a belgian recipe made with Neutral Ale yeast so....

2. 3787 + Dubbel Pitch is bad and medicine. This beer will probably get dumped . I will wait a litle longer to see where it goes from here.

3. 3787 + 2 year old slurry seems OK. Not sure because the phenols from 3787 are confusing me. It is very very phenolic and the suspended yeast contributes a lot to smell and flavor. I mean, look at this :

(from left to right : 3787 Dubbel Pitch ; Notty ; 3787 +2 year old )

It is incredible how different these 3 batches look. Same wort ! Same day pitch ! Same temperature!

The Notty is much brighter and clearer than the other two.
But the one from the right (3787 +2 year old) is VERY cloudy. This is 10 days in primary and it has reached FG 1.008. I dont know why it will not clear. Do YOU ?

Maybe the Yeasties from this jar are NOT flocullant at all anymore.
Same view from the top, to show foam :

Conclusions ? Lets see....

1. Notty is good, so i would remove chlorine water from the equation.

2. The 3787 ones do smell a bit off and taste too. But the one from the left MUCH MORE. So i would think that one yeast seems stressed more than the other one. Maybe i am smelling yeast from the cloudy one, and in 2 weeks time if it clears it will be OK.

If these assumptions are true, i would have to vote for STRESSED YEAST in the Dubbel to be the culprit. PLUS, recovering stressed yeast is impossible or very hard, so just throw it away next time.

I will smelling and tasting my starters from now on....

(I will update this when i get to taste the 3787 +2YO again, maybe in 2 weeks time.

 

[Miraculix]

Maybe the yeast was a mix of multiple strains and now you got only the low floc strain left after two years?

Very mysterious and also very interesting.

 

[safcraft]

Maybe the yeast was a mix of multiple strains and now you got only the low floc strain left after two years?

Very mysterious and also very interesting.

Are you saying that the 3787 from Wyeast is a combination of strains ? Hmm.....interesting....

 

[Miraculix]

Are you saying that the 3787 from Wyeast is a combination of strains ? Hmm.....interesting....

I basically have no idea of if is a multistrain or not, but it could be an explanation of what we see on your pictures.

 

[safcraft]

New updates with conclusion and Follow Up

1. 16L + 3787 from 2 years old
Has an upfront medicine taste, not severe but its there.
Enough to dump it.

2. 5L + 3787 from Dubbel Slurry
Has a LOT of medicine taste. Pretty bad and worse than #1 !!
Dumped.

3. 5L + Nottingham
No off flavors.
Kegged with Dry Hop Amarillo to try and make something fun out of it.

Conclusions:
- Water seems to be out of the equation, BECAUSE the Notty vessel did not show medicine. BUT, what if only certain yeasts form these phenols that interact with the chlorine to form the chlorophenols ??

- Because vessel #2 is much worse than vessel #1, i am inclined to think its Yeast Stress related. The yeast from #2 was more stressed and produced worse flavors. As it had produced in the DUBBEL batch.

In my now "seem to be endless" pursuit of the medicine flavor cause , i will now endure on a #2 brewxperiment !

I will harvest the yeast from #2 (it has a lot of it) and wash it carefully with clean water. I will try to dump the non flocculant and use only whats in the bottom of the fermenter.

Then, try the SAME yeast in 3 different fermenters but different water sources.
For this i will need a Malt Kit brew, ready to dillute with water.

1. 1/3 Malt Kit + 3L TAP WATER (with chorine ? )

2. 1/3 Malt Kit + 3L TREATED TAP WATER (with Campden Tablet )

3. 1/3 Malt Kit + 3L BOTTLED WATER


Any differences in these brews will show the cause for medicine.
All 3 show medicine : blame the YEAST
Only #1 show medicine : blame the TAP WATER
#1 and #2 show medicine : blame the Campden Tablets
All 3 DO NOT SHOW : blame the YEAST (that recovered from stress in the meantime - this is the worst case scenario, hope it does not happen ! )

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks for the update. I think your idea sounds reasonable.