Solera Cyser: avoiding camden tablets

[kmarkstevens]

I like to brew beer. I've also played around with a very basic cyser (2 gallons Costco apple juice, 5 pounds Costco honey, top up to 4-5 gallons liquid, pitch some kinda beer yeast, ferment and drink). Done probably 10ish batches

1. have nothing against Camden tablets per say, but as a brewer there should be a hack around using them. Try to keep it as natural as possible, but avoid bottle bombs
2. start a yeast and pitch big, and therefore should overwhelm any other yeasties or bacteria
3. But I want this to finish around 1010 so there is still natural honey and/or apple flavors without the need to back sweeten.
4. recently got the WLP773 Scottish Cider Yeast Blend out of the vault. Quite like the results both at 1015 and 1010 as it has a bit of an apple bite and honey overtone.
5. All the yeasties I've tried finish around 1000 or lower (WLP773, Nottingham, WLP02, Sake Yeast #7, and a whole host of others I have in the library. Note: haven't tried sweet mead)

Like I wrote, I got WLP773 about a month ago as a vault release. Taste to my palate is honey and apple at say 1010. Challenge is how to stop it here at 1010? Then bottle carb it without a bottle bomb?

One way, I just started doing is a solera. With a 2.5 gallon fermenter (Mr Beer), I just rack off say 2 quarts/liters of cyser to a new fermenter, add in a gallon of Costco apple juice and a pound of honey, some yeast nutrient, aerate the hell out of it with a paint stirrer for a few minutes, and then get out of the way. When it hit's 1015 or 1010 or so, pour into a couple of growlers, loosely cap, and put in the fridge. Sip away as the mood strikes. Effervescent but not carbonated and not a bottle bomb. It's a solution that works, but there should be a better way...

Looking to the experience on this board for
a) how to stop fermenting around 1010?
b) how to bottle carb
c) any bright ideas on the above without having to use Camden tablets and back sweeten?
(again, not a religious war or anything, but as a homebrewer is there any alternative solution to stop the fermentation in the 1010ish range yet bottle condition?)

Doing the solera will kinda sorta meet my personal consumption needs, but it would also be great to bottle carbonate. I look to the collective wisdom and experience of Home Brew Talk to help me out. Thanks in advance.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Chemical stabilization:
Campden tablets (sulfite) do NOT prevent fermentation.
Sorbate (sorbic acid) is what's used to prevent yeast fermentation, and it's only effective after the yeast has been removed. Sulfite should be used along with sorbate to prevent oxidation and prevent off-flavors from bacteria.

Without force carbonation, you have 2 options for a sweet carbonated cider that's shelf stable:
1. Bottle pasteurization
2. Non-fermentable sweetener

 

[Maylar]

Also, sorbate alone can produce geranium notes (geraniol) and adding SO2 will inhibit the bacteria that causes that.

 

[kmarkstevens]

So, is that all there is then? Just checking the collective wisdom of homebrewtalk if there is a realistic alternative to stabilize, back sweeten and keg? I'm not trying to be snarky but would love a way to get to about a 1.015 or 1.010 cyser naturally that could bottle condition. Second best I've found so far is this solera hack (treat it like a ginger beer), make small batches, in the fridge loosely capped, and at best have a chilled effervescent cyser that retails some honey and apple sweetness for a few days. It's not a terrible solution but hoping for more.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The two methods I mention cover your reasonable options that exclude force carbonation or keeping it refrigerated.
Why don't you want to pasteurize or use non-fermentable sugar? They're both pretty easy and effective methods.

There are other more advanced methods, if you want to head into less reasonable territory. Beware the risk of bottle bombs.

Methode de champenoise -- ferment dry, bottle carbonate, concentrate and then freeze the lees in the bottle neck, remove the lees while backsweetening and stabilizing.

Keeving -- remove nutrients via a complex process, such that it finishes fermentation still sweet. Add a controlled amount of nutrients at bottling to achieve desired carbonation.

High ABV "spunding" -- add more sugar than the yeast can ferment. Bottle with only ~4 gravity points fermentation remaining. A FFT could tell you the FG.
Unfortunately strains to make sessionable alcohol levels aren't commercial available, but they do exist.

Dry ice -- stabilize a sweet cider by whatever means desired. Carbonate with a controlled amount of food-grade dry ice.
Some strains can be cold crashed easily to stop fermentation. Combined with repeated racking, you can stabilize with sugar remaining.
You could also stabilize with a UV light pasteurization device, probably best after crashing/fining.

Personally I like semi-dry cider, so I don't have to deal with any of this nonsense. I just like learning about things.
Cheers

 

[kmarkstevens]

The two methods I mention cover your reasonable options that exclude force carbonation or keeping it refrigerated.
Why don't you want to pasteurize or use non-fermentable sugar? They're both pretty easy and effective methods.

Not a religious war or anything like that. Just hoping there is something simple. The solera works, after a fashion, and is pretty easy. Have read about all the other methods, but seem like more involved that what I was hoping for. Oh well.

Methode de champenoise seems the closest to what I'd like, but a lot of work!

 

[madscientist451]

The WL Scottish Cider yeast is actually a blend of 3 yeast strains. Its supposed to leave some residual sweetness and have 80% attenuation.
My recommendation would be to play around with how much honey you are using.
Boost your starting gravity with the goal of the yeast stopping on its own.
Note that with blended yeast strains, as you re-use the yeast, the ratio of the blend will change.
I've heard the WL Sweet Mead yeast will also stop before its dry.
Please post your results if you try any of these suggestions!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Its supposed to leave some residual sweetness and have 80% attenuation.

It may have 80% actual attenuation, but the apparent attenuation is the same as any other yeast that ferments cider dry. It's a misleading gimmick.

I've heard the WL Sweet Mead yeast will also stop before its dry.

Also not the case, sorry.

 

[madscientist451]

madscientist451 said: ↑
I've heard the WL Sweet Mead yeast will also stop before its dry.

Also not the case, sorry.

That information came from the AHA Cidermaker of the year 2018, when he appeared on a recent Cider Chat podcast.
He was using the WL Sweet Mead Yeast in an ice cider, but I don't see why you couldn't get the same result using honey/apple juice. I think his target FG was 1.030, I cant remember where the ice cider started.

 

[madscientist451]

Duplicate post

 

[RPh_Guy]

In an ice cider the sugar exceeds the alcohol tolerance of the yeast, so it finishes sweet.

I have used the sweet mead strain and it fermented as dry as any other. Lots of similar experiences from other forum members here, for both of those strains.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Dang, I was hoping for a unicorn* yeast that would stop around 1010. To complicate my goal, I'm just targeting a 6-8% ABV cyser (pound of honey and a gallon of juice). Not trying to exceed the ABV tolerance of the yeast to finish sweet.

I'm guessing that Fleschmanns bread yeast is not a unicorn either for this purpose. Please correct if I'm wrong though.

I will post results. So far the Solera cyser has been at least decent. I've been doing a gallon at a time, so pretty much every week have to pour off some dregs, leave the yeast cake behind, dump in a gallon of juice and a pound of honey, aerate, and a couple of days later pour into a growler or two and refrigerate. It is a lot like making ginger beer. not quite what I was hoping for but alright.

I do have Methode de champenoise on a to do list. Maybe this coming winter.


*mythical beast that does not exist.

 

[Maylar]

Dang, I was hoping for a unicorn* yeast that would stop around 1010. To complicate my goal, I'm just targeting a 6-8% ABV cyser (pound of honey and a gallon of juice). Not trying to exceed the ABV tolerance of the yeast to finish sweet.

I'm guessing that Fleschmanns bread yeast is not a unicorn either for this purpose. Please correct if I'm wrong though.

Nope. Bread yeast will hit 12-14% easily. I made a mead with it that stopped at 15%.

There are a few low ABV ale yeasts - I think White Labs makes them. Dunno how they'd fare in a cyser.

 

[bernardsmith]

You could try using filters to remove yeast cells. Of course your cyser will have to be bright clear and you will need about .5 micron (sterile) filters. That should be enough to remove most if not all the yeast cells from the mead... Alternatively, you might try cold crashing and racking s few times and again, depending on how well the yeast you selected flocculate, that may be enough to remove most of the yeast, then you might try pasteurization at a relatively low temperature for long enough to kill the remaining yeast cells... but buyer beware: heating changes the flavors (AKA spoils them) AND unless you have degassed well, you are heating what may be a very significant amount of CO2 in a very confined space and that gas WILL expand despite its apparent confinement... if yer knows what I mean.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Appreciate the replies. Interesting but I'm kinda lazy. I do have WLP011 on order from the Vault, and its one of the lowest attenuating commercial yeasts out there at 67.5%. So it will finish a bit north at maybe 1006 for a pound of honey/gallon apple juice. Might achieve what I'm hoping for. Will report back whenever I get this vault yeast (charged me in June but no idea when it's going to get here)

 

[RPh_Guy]

I do have WLP011 on order from the Vault, and its one of the lowest attenuating commercial yeasts out there at 67.5%. So it will finish a bit north at maybe 1006 for a pound of honey/gallon apple juice.

Sorry, that's not how it works.
Listed attenuation for beer yeast is... for beer.
Wine is made from much more easily fermentable sugar, so beer yeast will ferment wine dry.

 

[wasully]

Sorry, that's not how it works.
Listed attenuation for beer yeast is... for beer.
Wine is made from much more easily fermentable sugar, so beer yeast will ferment wine dry.

This is 100% true, but I'm curious if some of these really high nutrient demand yeasts(one of the new kveik ones has super high nutrient demand I've heard?) might fortuitously stall from lack of food.

Maybe filter the juice before pitching?

 

[RPh_Guy]

This is 100% true, but I'm curious if some of these really high nutrient demand yeasts(one of the new kveik ones has super high nutrient demand I've heard?) might fortuitously stall from lack of food.

Maybe filter the juice before pitching?

I get the best results from healthy fermentations.

 

[Maylar]

This is 100% true, but I'm curious if some of these really high nutrient demand yeasts(one of the new kveik ones has super high nutrient demand I've heard?) might fortuitously stall from lack of food.

Maybe filter the juice before pitching?

Look up "keeving". Though it's not for the feint of heart.

 

[kmarkstevens]

My Scottish cider blend cyser yesterday was a 1.000. Lost the honey/bit of sweetness that makes it tasty to my palate at 1.010.

@RPh_Guy I have to try with the WLP011 but most likely will report back to confirm your attenuation. anyhoo, appreciate the feedback and I will update with my experiment. BTW, just got the email from Whitelabs that they shipped the yeast.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Also note that WLP011 is only listed as 5-10% alcohol tolerance.
That's kind of a large range... Make sure it doesn't hit its tolerance since you want to naturally carbonate.

 

[wasully]

Look up "keeving". Though it's not for the feint of heart.

Yes, this would be my lazy keeve/experimentation for the hell of it. Not sure why it's "not for the faint of heart" though. Other than being finicky and requiring babysitting. And requiring cider apples, preferably French bittersweets.

Well, okay. Being asked, "what are you doing" and answering "défécation" is a bit brave.

Other than needing bittersweets, preferably French, I'm not sure why it would

I get the best results from healthy fermentations.

I hear you, but ignorantly wonder aloud what's different about having way too much sugar for the yeast to metabolize(Ice Cider) vs not enough nutrient(My "I'm bored and daydreaming at work" idea.

I don't really have time to dig into the micro-bio side of things right now, though.

I'm also not sure how I would remove nutrients, outside of a keeve. Would pectin+cold crashing followed by siphoning work?

 

[Maylar]

Short of keeving, I've read that it is possible to stall the ferment simply by limiting the nutrients. Start with late season apples that are low in nitrogen, from old growth orchards. You risk H2S from stressed yeast, so yeast selection is important. According to Claude Jolicoeur you can tweak the final gravity by adding DAP if the ferment stops too soon. He says 25 ppm of DAP will drop SG by another 10 points.

I've never tried this... I stick to established protocols and back sweeten before kegging.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I hear you, but ignorantly wonder aloud what's different about having way too much sugar for the yeast to metabolize(Ice Cider) vs not enough nutrient(My "I'm bored and daydreaming at work" idea.

One of these scenarios tends to produce hydrogen sulfide and one of them doesn't.

Removing the yeast from the cider too soon may leave lots of diacetyl and/or acetaldehyde (VDK).

 

[kmarkstevens]

Well, I pitched the WLP011 into a gallon of apple juice and about a pound of Costco honey a few minutes ago. See how it ends up and what the FG is. Will update how that turns out.

The WLP773 Scottish Cider Yeast Blend finishes at 1.000 with a bit of residual apple taste. I can't detect the honey.

Doing a small batch solera and pouring off to a growler or three loosely capped in the fridge is a kind of solution. Or even capped in a swing top in the fridge for a couple of days for a small level of carbonation.

 

[kmarkstevens]

I tried the above with WLP011 European Ale yeast, as the attenuation rate is low. It too finished about 1.000 and barely a hint of sweet honey taste.

Last night I made a final try with Pub (I'm out of wlp02), Pub attenuation rate is low but not quite as low as 02. See if I get this to finish at 1002 or higher....

If not, I'll do the solera route. When the gravity starts to get around 1015, I'll fill a plastic bottle and let it naturally ferment in the fridge. Drink after a couple of days. do that as the gravity drops. Then make a solera and pour off the last 1-2 liters into a fresh fermenter and top it up with juice, honey, maybe fruit or oak chips, rinse later repeat.

 

[bernardsmith]

I guess I have a problem understanding the term "attenuation rate" when it refers to yeast fermenting what are essentially simple sugars. Attenuation may be of relevance to brewers whose wort contains lots of complex sugars that some yeast can ferment better than others - hence rates of "attenuation" but what complex sugars are in honey or apple juice that would suggest that any yeast could not take the gravity below 1.000 without blinking assuming that the wine maker provides enough nutrients and does not create a must whose potential ABV is above the tolerance level for alcohol of the yeast... ? Must ain't wort and wine ain't beer.

 

[Blacksmith1]

Yup. I use ale yeasts in my ciders and they ferment dry every time. Want left over sugar in wine mead or cider you have to put more in than the yeast can eat. And then your ciders become wine anyway.

 

[Ben E Lou]

On the point of going natural while brewing and Campden tablets: When I want to go natural, I try going traditional/historical, and to do that I end up going to Google books where there are many pre-1930 digitized books in the public domain. A few of them advised adding mustard seed to prevent cider from going sour at the amount of one gill to a barrel (roughly 1 tsp/gallon). Mustard seed is naturally relatively high in sulfites. I am brewing my first batches of wild-yeast cider now, so the method is as-yet untested by me although I plan to use it, and I have found nothing about it on the forum yet. I imagine the mustard would add some, perhaps unwanted, flavor.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Ben E Lou, interesting. What's old is new again. Please share results.

I also need to redo a cyser with sake yeast. I did a couple batches 2 years ago during my sake phase, but didn't take really good notes. I think it finished at 1002 using sake #9 yeast, but not 100% clear that was the final ferment.

Note: if you do try sake, it goes though a phase where the overwhelming taste and smell can only be described as "puke". Godawful, but thankfully that fades in about 2 weeks.

I quite liked my my cysers with any of these: Nottingham, Sake #9, a notty-sake mix, and the WLP773 Scottish Cider Yeast Blend. Again making some new batches to check of Pub/02 finishes higher than 1000, and same with the Sake Yeast.

 

[RPh_Guy]

barely a hint of sweet honey taste.

I can't detect the honey.

Is the Costco honey a product of the US? If not, it's probably been cut with other sugars and may be part of the problem.
You could try using a much more flavorful honey variety like buckwheat. Honey is not all the same.

Also, fermenting at a low temp tends to better preserve the volatile apple esters (increasing desired flavor).

The yeast choice really isn't going to make a huge difference with how much honey flavor is preserved, especially since you're backsweetening.

If not, I'll do the solera route.

It certainly doesn't need to be a "solera" to use that method. Mix your ingredients. Monitor fermentation. Bottle when it's near your desired sweetness. Put it in the fridge. If you want some carbonation, then leave it at room temp for a few hours before refrigeration.

Alternately, you can ferment dry, and then just sweeten and bottle. Again, if desired you can leave it a room temp for some time to carbonate before refrigerating.

It's very simple to make sweet sparkling low-ABV wines if you don't care about shelf stability.

Cheers

 

[kmarkstevens]

Costco honey is pure honey (and not adulterated with sugar or other additives). I have a batch with WLP02 going now and will see how low that finishes out at.

 

[wasully]

Costco honey is pure honey (and not adulterated with sugar or other additives). I have a batch with WLP02 going now and will see how low that finishes out at.

RPh Guy mentions the US because mislabled honey is nearly a certainty for imports.

 

[kmarkstevens]

It's been about a month. The WLP002 batch seems to be at FG of 1.000. I gently rouse the yeast to see if it will dry out further but that seems to be the FG.

If anyone is interested, I have a cyser with Sake yeast #9 going. it's at 1002 right now. I've made this before but didn't take detailed notes on where it finished. The challenge with a sake yeast cyser is it goes thru a "puke" flavor phase for a month or so. Not pleasant but it eventually fades away. I also previously did a sake & Nottingham blended yeast that eventually tasted fine but also went thru a "puke" phase. That one finished around 0.996.

I've also tried WLP546 Marañón Canyon Wild Cacao. The yeast sounded neat but didn't thrill my cyser palate. Likewise, WLP611 New Nordic Ale Yeast, did not seem to fully benefit from the 100+ lab hours that went into making it commercially viable.

I think I'll go back to the WLP Scottish Cider blend, keep it going as a 2.5 gallon solera, drink it still in the 1005-1020 range, fill the odd PET bottle for light carbonation, apple jack a batch, pasteurize some and drink it still.

Still have it on the list to one day test out Methode de champenoise.

appreciate all the replies and insights. If I've got an update will come back here to share.

 

[kmarkstevens]

deleting duplicate

 

[kmarkstevens]

Both the WLP002 and WY4134 (Sake #9) have finished at 1.000. Extremely dry.

Looks like nothing in my arsenal finishes at 1010 or somewhere thereabouts. They least dry is the 1.000 and more yeasties finish below that.

Net net, if I want something less dry naturally, then need to bottle in the sub 1020 range and watch the carbonation. A solera is pretty straight forward as in just keep re-pitching the wort when it get's low.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Tried to tell you.

 

[kmarkstevens]

@RPh_Guy Not that I didn't believe you, but I do like playing around with yeast and seeing what they do for the end result. I've got a dozen or so strains. Appreciate your comments and keeving is on my list to get to someday.

 

[Ben E Lou]

I am drinking some of the cider I added whole, unground mustard seeds to. I do not sense a mustard taste in the drink and it does not seem to have turned vinegary. So, success?