So am i crazy???...thought of going pro.

[Dcpcooks]

That's interesting. 40 bbl of beer = 10,000 pints. That's not a nano brewery. If 100 people buy a beer EVERY day, you would brew once every 3 months (or twice if you have a 20 bbl system).



I've also read that 3bbl is too small to make money, etc. But it all depends on the expectations you have for making money.

Our plan is to self distribute so that's where the 40 bbl fermentor idea came from.

Op can probably get by with a 5 bbl system. It's a bit small but if he designed it well he could do double batches once a week and maintain four beers on tap. A five bbl set up with 5 10 bbl fermentors and 1 10 bbl bright tank is roughly $105-110k. You'd have good resale potential if needed

If you go 10 bbl hot side and 20 bbl cold side you bee closer to $150-160k. Probably better resale potential.

A 2bbl set up is probably around 25k if you do it right and get jacketed conicals and bright tanks. I'd want a grain out door on the mash tun. Stout or Brewers hardware are probably the best bets for that set up.
I see this set up having limited resale value. It to big for homebrewers and not really big enough for commercial production so you'd need to find the right buyer.

 

[SanPancho]

nano systems are not hard to sell right now. lots of nano buyers, and bigger guys looking for small pilot systems to play on.

if you're not making lagers then poly conicals are fine. get the cooling coils, install CIP balls and get a good ass pump. invest in a small pressure washer and you should never need to touch them with a brush or scrub them.

chinese stainless tanks are probly 2000-2500 for 4-5 bbl serving tanks, and brite/fermenter is probly 3000-3500. quality has some a long way in past decade.

manual bottle filling rigs can be made for less than $1000 with 4-6 heads. keg washers for less than $500.

lots of DIY stuff in the nano scale. just remember, you're building a factory. if you skimp on capital you need to spend more on labor.

 

[madscientist451]

I quit a good job and started a business (not beer related). Lots of ups and downs until the big recession of 2008 put me out of business for good. Found another job, (one that I really don't like) but it pays good and has above average benefits.
Sure, I've thought about opening a farm type brewery/winery/cidery. I actually already have the farm, as well as a hobby cider orchard, vineyard and small hop yard but its not happening as a business for me, at least not right now.
I've been there, done that, with running a business and know how hard you have to work with absolutely no guarantee that you will make any money. Those wineries you visited in Italy have been making wine for hundreds if not thousands of years and are well established. You are starting from ground zero, basically a rookie homebrewer. I'm not saying don't do it, but I am saying is be careful with your money and don't allocate too much of your resources, you don't want to put yourself in a hole that is difficult to get out of (like I did).
So my 2 cents is this: 1. Don't quit your day job. Second, decide how much money you are going to sink into this project. Buying the farm property, fixing it up, getting some equipment and getting the license is all going to cost lots of money. Take that initial estimate and double it. 3. Decide how much money you are going to spend keeping the business afloat for the first two years. If you can't turn a profit in 2 years you should probably shut it down. 4. Think about how you'll feel if you don't turn a profit and eventually decide you've had enough. 5. Discuss all of these things with your spouse, especially the part about investing money that may not ever earn any any return and could result in a net loss.
The only other thing to add is to make a three to 5 year plan. During those 3-5 years, you'll visit every other farm brewery within a 250 mile radius, see what beers they make sell and what doesn't, see what you like and don't like about their operations. Brew like crazy at home, get as many brews as possible done. Get involved in local brew clubs and attend the national AHA conference. After all that you may decide to go ahead and start your business or you may change your mind. Either way, you'll have fun checking it out. Good Luck!

 

[MapleGroveAleworks]

What if he does treat his water (or really doesn't have to)? And maybe he owns a really kick ass pH meter! And random strangers love his beer, including a judge.

And his kids are really great looking...so much so that random people come up to them (even beer judges!) and remark about their especially good looks.

Is his beer OK then? Even after 13 batches?

Or maybe you don't have an idea what this dudes beer is like, or his plan/process to improve, sorry.

Most of that didn't make sense to me, so I am unable to answer.

If I had to guess though, you're wanting to give me attitude for suggesting that maybe because his wife says his beer is great that is really isn't. This is a huge investment of money and time, so perhaps he should make sure first that he is consistently making excellent beer before jumping in. If he is already doing that after 13 batches, then a major brewery should hire him immediately. I'm guessing the answer is no though.

 

[Mainer]

Reading through these comments, it occurs to me that there may be some selection bias here. The name of the site is HOMEbrewtalk. Thus, most of the people on it are home brewers, ie people who have already decided going pro isn't worthwhile. So if you ask about going pro, it's only natural that you'll be met with skepticism. It's probably worth shelling out some cash to run your idea by a professional business coach or consultant, somebody who (unlike me, and perhaps most of us) hasn't already concluded that it's a bad idea before you even asked.

 

[Mainer]

Every time a new brewery opens in my town, I think, "this is it. We're finally at saturation." There are at last count 23 breweries and counting in my town of 60,000 people. And yet, the demand keeps coming. In the last 10 years, only one local brewery has failed, and it was because the partners had a personal fight. (Don't know for sure, but I've heard rumors somebody was sleeping with somebody else's wife.) One of the partners has since opened a new brewery that is thriving.

 

[ericbw]

Again, it all depends on expectations. I was just at a small brewery yesterday that brews 1 barrel batches with 1/2 bbl fermenters. They're working full time jobs and doing this.

The beer was decent (from "meh" up to very good) and reasonably priced at $5 a pint and tasters for $2.50.

A lot of the skepticism on here is BS. Go find and entrepreneur forum where they won't crack on your beer that they never tasted.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Reading through these comments, it occurs to me that there may be some selection bias here. The name of the site is HOMEbrewtalk. Thus, most of the people on it are home brewers, ie people who have already decided going pro isn't worthwhile. So if you ask about going pro, it's only natural that you'll be met with skepticism. It's probably worth shelling out some cash to run your idea by a professional business coach or consultant, somebody who (unlike me, and perhaps most of us) hasn't already concluded that it's a bad idea before you even asked.

On the contrary, I'd wager that 95% of craft brewers started as homebrewers. It says nothing about wanting to stay that way. The number of us who've made/are making the pro plunge in various capacities likely (definitely in my case) have accounts from before going pro and still visit the site.

No doubt that most folks on HBT will never go pro. But that doesn't mean anything.

 

[MapleGroveAleworks]

Again, it all depends on expectations. I was just at a small brewery yesterday that brews 1 barrel batches with 1/2 bbl fermenters. They're working full time jobs and doing this.

The beer was decent (from "meh" up to very good) and reasonably priced at $5 a pint and tasters for $2.50.

A lot of the skepticism on here is BS. Go find and entrepreneur forum where they won't crack on your beer that they never tasted.

Pardon me for suggesting that after 13 brews he probably isn't making good enough beer to be professionally sold. It's not BS at all, and I don't have to have tasted his beer to be able to come to that conclusion.

 

[65C]

I looked at this as a side project for about 20 minutes until I did the maths on it

I really don't see how brewing can be anything other than a hobby until you hit 3 or 4 digit barrel numbers - even then it looks underwhelming for the effort

 

[ericbw]

Pardon me for suggesting that after 13 brews he probably isn't making good enough beer to be professionally sold. It's not BS at all, and I don't have to have tasted his beer to be able to come to that conclusion.

That's an assumption, not a conclusion.

 

[MapleGroveAleworks]

That's an assumption, not a conclusion.

That's super bro. Good for you.

 

[ericbw]

That's super bro. Good for you.

But even better for you, my friend.

 

[cmac62]

I read this whole thread, all eight pages. I have been home brewing for the last three years, and have made some good ones and some not so good. When someone asks or I briefly think about going pro, I always think I know myself well enough to know I really don't want to work that hard. I may enjoy the brewing, but not all the other stuff that goes with running a successful business. Good luck to anyone who has the nerve to turn their hobby into a real business.

 

[Turkeyshot]

Well after reading all the pages on this thread and all the negative comments, I can come to one conclusion. That most of the negative replies come from people who would probably never undertake opening any kind of business. Brewing related or not.

If you have the passion and a good business plan, then by all means go for it.
Don't let a bunch of naysayers get you down.

 

[ericbw]

Well after reading all the pages on this thread and all the negative comments, I can come to one conclusion. That most of the negative replies come from people who would probably never undertake opening any kind of business. Brewing related or not.



If you have the passion and a good business plan, then by all means go for it.

Don't let a bunch of naysayers get you down.

That's probably the primary dividing line. Good point!!

 

[mongoose33]

Well after reading all the pages on this thread and all the negative comments, I can come to one conclusion. That most of the negative replies come from people who would probably never undertake opening any kind of business. Brewing related or not.

If you have the passion and a good business plan, then by all means go for it.
Don't let a bunch of naysayers get you down.

You can have the passion, and you can have the business plan, but if you don't have the beer, the first two aren't going to matter.

We had a guy here about 2 years ago start up a taproom (if you can call it that) where he was selling his homebrew. I presume he was properly licensed and everything--no reason to presume he wasn't.

However, his beer largely sucked. I tried, and tried, and I just couldn't like it. He'd try all sorts of weird flavors and screw them up (Coconut anyone? How about BBQ beer?). On top of that, his beers tended to be overcarbed.

He's no longer in business. His storefront was cheap. I'm sure he was passionate. And a business plan would have been fine considering his cost structure.

He lacked only one thing.

Quality beer.

 

[Turkeyshot]

You can have the passion, and you can have the business plan, but if you don't have the beer, the first two aren't going to matter.

We had a guy here about 2 years ago start up a taproom (if you can call it that) where he was selling his homebrew. I presume he was properly licensed and everything--no reason to presume he wasn't.

However, his beer largely sucked. I tried, and tried, and I just couldn't like it. He'd try all sorts of weird flavors and screw them up (Coconut anyone? How about BBQ beer?). On top of that, his beers tended to be overcarbed.

He's no longer in business. His storefront was cheap. I'm sure he was passionate. And a business plan would have been fine considering his cost structure.

He lacked only one thing.

Quality beer.

Not having tasted his beer I will have to take your word on that, but tastes are subjective. Maybe that is why he failed or maybe it was some other reason.

The bottom line is he had a vision and tried to make it happen. He might of had some crazy ideas for beer flavors, but there are quite of few of those out there now. You surely can't succeed if you never try.

 

[Brownalemikie]

JMHO, but everybody has their favorite beer style. Just because a Brewer loves strawberry cream ale doesn't mean he'd be able to sell tons of it in his tap room.

My advice to the OP would be to go to a popular craft brew tap room on a busy night and watch what style of beers are selling the most. Usually there are 4 or 5 flagship beers for a reason. My guess is that the list of flagship beers will consist of an IPA, cream ale, brown ale and milk stout or Porter.

Then all you have to do is perfect recipes for those styles. Our local brewery also sells mead and wine. You're also going to want a food truck in the parking lot. Like I said, JMHO.

 

[ericbw]

Starbucks sells a lot of their coffee, and I'm pretty sure it's not because it's the "best" coffee out there. I think it's because they're selling an experience - 25 years ago, Starbucks was a West Coast thing. When it came east, it was unique and hip.

Some people like it, but I bet most customers are buying a milk drink with coffee in it. Which is also more expensive. Now they're ubiquitous, but the coffee isn't any better.

Look at any chain - and if selling a lot is the measure of success, then you have to consider them. They don't make the best product, they just make the most product. That's all about the business plan, etc.

 

[Murphys_Law]

You can have the passion, and you can have the business plan, but if you don't have the beer, the first two aren't going to matter.

We had a guy here about 2 years ago start up a taproom (if you can call it that) where he was selling his homebrew. I presume he was properly licensed and everything--no reason to presume he wasn't.

However, his beer largely sucked. I tried, and tried, and I just couldn't like it. He'd try all sorts of weird flavors and screw them up (Coconut anyone? How about BBQ beer?). On top of that, his beers tended to be overcarbed.

He's no longer in business. His storefront was cheap. I'm sure he was passionate. And a business plan would have been fine considering his cost structure.

He lacked only one thing.

Quality beer.

Having beer that sucked is one thing (or having odd, unpopular styles), but I still don't think you need great beer to pull this off, just good beer. If the beer is decent and everything else falls into place (solid business plan, etc) then you can pull this off, IMO. There are plenty of places around me that have decent beer and occasionally a really good one and the parking lots are always full. They all provide varied styles, a nice atmosphere and an outdoor area to sit on nice days. And food trucks!

 

[mongoose33]

Not having tasted his beer I will have to take your word on that, but tastes are subjective. Maybe that is why he failed or maybe it was some other reason.

The bottom line is he had a vision and tried to make it happen. He might of had some crazy ideas for beer flavors, but there are quite of few of those out there now. You surely can't succeed if you never try.

I don't disagree with that, but I wasn't the only one who had the opinion his beer wasn't very good.

You can have all the passion and vision in the world, but if your product isn't good enough, it's not going to work. Here's the funny thing: people wanted him to succeed; I surely did. But his product was lousy.

No amount of vision or passion is going to overcome that.

 

[mongoose33]

Having beer that sucked is one thing (or having odd, unpopular styles), but I still don't think you need great beer to pull this off, just good beer. If the beer is decent and everything else falls into place (solid business plan, etc) then you can pull this off, IMO. There are plenty of places around me that have decent beer and occasionally a really good one and the parking lots are always full. They all provide varied styles, a nice atmosphere and an outdoor area to sit on nice days. And food trucks!

Well.....I can't imagine wanting to do this without GREAT beer being what I was selling. I have no particular desire to start my own brewery, but I can tell you I wouldn't do it if I didn't think my product was fantastic.

One of my rewards as a homebrewer occurs when someone who hasn't had my beer takes a sip, there's about a 2-second pause while they consider what they've tasted, and then announce to me "That's Goooood," as if they're surprised, which I suspect many are. Lots of homebrew out there, apparently, that's not so good, so it's a shock to them when mine is tasty.

There are tons of easier ways to make money than brewing; part of the reward for me would have to be non-monetary, i.e., that people celebrate my beer, that the compliments flow unabated.

****************

I'm not an expert on this brewing stuff; I love that there are so many here with the experience and are willing to share what they know. It's helped me immensely. I've improved my process, and even taken some stabs at recipe development. I have a new one that I'm incredibly pleased with right now, but until and unless I can repeat it....I'm not telling you or anyone else what's in it.

I brewed a pils in February; it's gotten good reviews, but this review, from a friend of mine with a palate to die for, is what I live for in response to my beer. Of course, I want to like it too (and I do), but some of my reward is also others' reactions to it.

The pilsner is first rate all the way. It is outstanding in the general scenarios of quenching thirst, pairing with a variety of food, and recreational quaffing. I would rate it above average in the fourth condition: slow drinking as the yeast overtone became just a touch overpowering.

Character-wise, the malt choice and hopping were perfect. The body was spot on, especially for the lighter SRM. The hops were right on the money with both bittering and bouquet. I know some of the more popular European lagers (Urquell, BF, Becks) will punch harder in these categories, but I like this compared with American greats such as New Glarus’ Edel Pils. The one spot that was mixed was the yeast. I thought it was infinitely better than many (most) American mircrobrewery attempts at lager yeast, but it was still a touch more floral (both entertaining and distracting depending upon mindset I suppose) than I would call perfect. Still, given that the commercially available supply is nice but still constrained a bit, I am not sure that there is a better choice available. All in all one helluva good lager, and far superior to any microbrew lager available now. Did I say how much I miss Edel Pils?
​

I gave him that beer (along with a SMASH of which he was also quite complimentary) because I wanted a critical reaction. I'm looking for off-flavors, oxidation, anything that is wrong with the beer that might possibly be process-related.

My desire for good, critical but fair critiques of my beer comes from what may be the best advice, if you want to call it that, I've ever read here. It comes from Yooper, who described Ugly Baby Syndrome, the tendency of people to think their beer is better than it is. IMO, she's absolutely right, and as part of my growth as a homebrewer I've asked others whose opinions I respect to critically evaluate my beer. If there's a problem I want to know about it.

None of this is to suggest I'm a great brewer; I'm still learning, still making mistakes, can't hope to match the expertise exhibited by some here who have decades of experience. But the point remains: unless I'm convinced my beer is GREAT, not just decent, why would I or anyone else ever want to open a brewery?

It takes all kinds to make a world, people are allowed to make their own choices, and I've made my point, which people may or may not find useful.

 

[Murphys_Law]

Well.....I can't imagine wanting to do this without GREAT beer being what I was selling. I have no particular desire to start my own brewery, but I can tell you I wouldn't do it if I didn't think my product was fantastic.

One of my rewards as a homebrewer occurs when someone who hasn't had my beer takes a sip, there's about a 2-second pause while they consider what they've tasted, and then announce to me "That's Goooood," as if they're surprised, which I suspect many are. Lots of homebrew out there, apparently, that's not so good, so it's a shock to them when mine is tasty.

There are tons of easier ways to make money than brewing; part of the reward for me would have to be non-monetary, i.e., that people celebrate my beer, that the compliments flow unabated.

****************

I'm not an expert on this brewing stuff; I love that there are so many here with the experience and are willing to share what they know. It's helped me immensely. I've improved my process, and even taken some stabs at recipe development. I have a new one that I'm incredibly pleased with right now, but until and unless I can repeat it....I'm not telling you or anyone else what's in it.

I brewed a pils in February; it's gotten good reviews, but this review, from a friend of mine with a palate to die for, is what I live for in response to my beer. Of course, I want to like it too (and I do), but some of my reward is also others' reactions to it.

The pilsner is first rate all the way. It is outstanding in the general scenarios of quenching thirst, pairing with a variety of food, and recreational quaffing. I would rate it above average in the fourth condition: slow drinking as the yeast overtone became just a touch overpowering.

Character-wise, the malt choice and hopping were perfect. The body was spot on, especially for the lighter SRM. The hops were right on the money with both bittering and bouquet. I know some of the more popular European lagers (Urquell, BF, Becks) will punch harder in these categories, but I like this compared with American greats such as New Glarus’ Edel Pils. The one spot that was mixed was the yeast. I thought it was infinitely better than many (most) American mircrobrewery attempts at lager yeast, but it was still a touch more floral (both entertaining and distracting depending upon mindset I suppose) than I would call perfect. Still, given that the commercially available supply is nice but still constrained a bit, I am not sure that there is a better choice available. All in all one helluva good lager, and far superior to any microbrew lager available now. Did I say how much I miss Edel Pils?
​

I gave him that beer (along with a SMASH of which he was also quite complimentary) because I wanted a critical reaction. I'm looking for off-flavors, oxidation, anything that is wrong with the beer that might possibly be process-related.

My desire for good, critical but fair critiques of my beer comes from what may be the best advice, if you want to call it that, I've ever read here. It comes from Yooper, who described Ugly Baby Syndrome, the tendency of people to think their beer is better than it is. IMO, she's absolutely right, and as part of my growth as a homebrewer I've asked others whose opinions I respect to critically evaluate my beer. If there's a problem I want to know about it.

None of this is to suggest I'm a great brewer; I'm still learning, still making mistakes, can't hope to match the expertise exhibited by some here who have decades of experience. But the point remains: unless I'm convinced my beer is GREAT, not just decent, why would I or anyone else ever want to open a brewery?

It takes all kinds to make a world, people are allowed to make their own choices, and I've made my point, which people may or may not find useful.

Oh, I agree 100% that as home brewers that we should strive to make the best beer possible, and most of us do that or we probably wouldn't be on HBT so many hours a day reading! My only point is that you don't need great beer to succeed and that a decent brewer can have a successful operation if everything else comes together.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

Not sure of your state but NH has very friendly laws to nano breweries, However some of the Feds laws can be tricky in regards to location on residential properties. A friend rec'd the last nano license for a home based brewery and after he was up and running discovered he is not allowed to sell samples or even bottles from his brewery.

The other thing to watch out for is purchasing ingredients, so be prepared for COD for awhile.

I have been working for the last year and a half for a new nano brewery building equipment, bottling, cleaning, brewing, etc. Without a lot of volunteer help you'll be really in a bind.