Smash recipe - are all forms of orange blossom fermentable?

[oashlee]

Working on a smash pale ale/IPA using golden promise single grain bill and one hop (no limits on schedule). Only non-fermentable adjuncts allowed. I was thinking about using a water base extract from dried orange blossom and orange peel zest to be added at end of fermentation. I have not worked with a flower yet...I believe peels are non fermentables, but are the flowers?

I have seen orange blossom contains 0 sugar, but having a hard time finding a good resource for a fermentables guide. Apologies in advance if I missed anything - if there is a good resource please just point me that way.

 

[archthered]

Maybe it's me but I am having a hard time understanding your question and just what you are trying to do. If there are no fermentables how are you making how are you making a SMASH? The grain you are using has sugar in it to ferment or you couldn't make it into beer. Did you mean no adjuncts like sugar?

I don't think there is any reason to think there is sugar in orange blossoms. Yes flowers have small quantities of sugar in them, hence pollinators interest in them, but these quantities are tiny and negligible in what it will add to the beer, probably even more so with dried. Why is it so important that there be no sugar in the orange blossoms? If that's what you want that's fine, I'm just trying to understand your goal to better help you.

Personally I'd add the orange peel and orange blossom in the last five minutes or so of the boil. In addition you could also, add a light tea of orange peel and blossom to it after fermentation and not long before you bottle/keg, kind of like dry hopping. I've used flowers, but not orange blossom, before and I would caution against using too much hops, especially late in the boil, or the subtle notes from the flowers may not come through.

 

[oashlee]

Maybe it's me but I am having a hard time understanding your question and just what you are trying to do. If there are no fermentables how are you making how are you making a SMASH? The grain you are using has sugar in it to ferment or you couldn't make it into beer. Did you mean no adjuncts like sugar?

I don't think there is any reason to think there is sugar in orange blossoms. Yes flowers have small quantities of sugar in them, hence pollinators interest in them, but these quantities are tiny and negligible in what it will add to the beer, probably even more so with dried. Why is it so important that there be no sugar in the orange blossoms? If that's what you want that's fine, I'm just trying to understand your goal to better help you.

Personally I'd add the orange peel and orange blossom in the last five minutes or so of the boil. In addition you could also, add a light tea of orange peel and blossom to it after fermentation and not long before you bottle/keg, kind of like dry hopping. I've used flowers, but not orange blossom, before and I would caution against using too much hops, especially late in the boil, or the subtle notes from the flowers may not come through.

Sorry! Thanks for pointing this lack of clarity out...I have edited the post to hopefully make more sense. (Probably should not have tried to type out my post on my phone on a Friday morning...)

You assumed correctly - non-fermentable adjuncts (a requirement of the competition). I am envisioning an orange blossom milkshake IPA/pale ale. The tea idea you suggested was my original plan. I wasn't sure if also adding the orange blossoms in during the boil would be too overpowering, but it sounds like it might be worthwhile with such a light flavor. My question really came into play when I mentioned the idea to another brewer, and he said orange blossoms are a no-go since they are full of sugars (I am guessing he is talking about orange blossom honey though?). I figured the orange blossoms do contain enough sugar to sustain pollinators but still could not envision them as a large sugar source, as you have already mentioned. Then again, I have very limited experience with flower fermentation.

I am still trying to decide on a hop and appropriate that will hopefully accentuate and not overpower the flower. I was thinking of starting with a short whirlpool after the boil, maybe followed by a short dry hop once fermentation begins. Also debating whether it would be a good idea to dry hop with the orange peel and blossoms directly in the fermenter vs using the tea idea.

 

[archthered]

Funny you mention the Friday morning thing, I wasn't sure the problems wasn't my lack of coffee yet!

I think you are probably correct in assuming that the other brewer was thinking of orange blossom honey since I see alot of people using that and few using the blossoms themselves. That said it may not hurt to check with whoever is running the competition just in case, I would just be explicit and tell them blossoms not honey.

I think your recipe sounds good. I don't think it will be too overpowering to have the blossoms and zest/peel in the boil, I have heard of people having problems when adding too much of flowers in the boil and it coming out too earthy and green but that is more of an issue of quantity and may be specific to rose and hibiscus, which is what I've heard it with. I suggest throwing some in the boil to make sure you extract some flavor but I like the idea of throwing a bit more in at whirlpool, you should get more aroma that way. I would avoid over doing though because you can try it after it's done fermenting and decide if you need to add more to the secondary etc. I do recommend making a tea with it to add to the secondary rathern than dry hopping, you will extract more flavor out of the ingredients than you would if you just put it straight in, you could heat and steep the tea stuff rather than boil if you want to keep more of the aromatics. But some of that decision may be better made after you taste it. If you haven't yet I would search for the amounts of blossoms and zest others have used for similar styles to give you a good starting point for how much to use, if you can't find something quite the same you could look at a different style and just bump it up a little to compete with the hops, assuming you aren't on the low end of hops for a pale ale.

I haven't tried them yet, I actually have a beer fermenting that I've used it them for, but bavaria mandarina hops are supposed to have an orange character and might work for you. They are more of an aroma hop but they may work. You could either not add any at the start of the boil but add a lot at 30 minutes and later or you could try using a small amount as a first wort hop and then adding some later.

Please post about your results and quantities as you go or when you are done. I'd be interested to see how this works out!

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

I would use the orange peel in the last 5 mins of the boil, the flowers I like the tea for dissolving priming sugar.

 

[oashlee]

Funny you mention the Friday morning thing, I wasn't sure the problems wasn't my lack of coffee yet!

I think you are probably correct in assuming that the other brewer was thinking of orange blossom honey since I see alot of people using that and few using the blossoms themselves. That said it may not hurt to check with whoever is running the competition just in case, I would just be explicit and tell them blossoms not honey.

I think your recipe sounds good. I don't think it will be too overpowering to have the blossoms and zest/peel in the boil, I have heard of people having problems when adding too much of flowers in the boil and it coming out too earthy and green but that is more of an issue of quantity and may be specific to rose and hibiscus, which is what I've heard it with. I suggest throwing some in the boil to make sure you extract some flavor but I like the idea of throwing a bit more in at whirlpool, you should get more aroma that way. I would avoid over doing though because you can try it after it's done fermenting and decide if you need to add more to the secondary etc. I do recommend making a tea with it to add to the secondary rathern than dry hopping, you will extract more flavor out of the ingredients than you would if you just put it straight in, you could heat and steep the tea stuff rather than boil if you want to keep more of the aromatics. But some of that decision may be better made after you taste it. If you haven't yet I would search for the amounts of blossoms and zest others have used for similar styles to give you a good starting point for how much to use, if you can't find something quite the same you could look at a different style and just bump it up a little to compete with the hops, assuming you aren't on the low end of hops for a pale ale.

I haven't tried them yet, I actually have a beer fermenting that I've used it them for, but bavaria mandarina hops are supposed to have an orange character and might work for you. They are more of an aroma hop but they may work. You could either not add any at the start of the boil but add a lot at 30 minutes and later or you could try using a small amount as a first wort hop and then adding some later.

Please post about your results and quantities as you go or when you are done. I'd be interested to see how this works out!

I will definitely keep you posted. We ended up saying forget the competition and just going with the grain bill we wanted (combo of 2 row pale, honey malt, maris otter, flaked rice, flaked oats, and flaked wheat). Simcoe and fresh orange peel in the whirlpool. Going to try some mosaic in the dry hop schedule.

I bought dried orange blossoms, orange blossom water, and some orange blossom honey to play around with between second fermentation and kegging in combination with more orange peel. Also I am going to make a vanilla bean extract to maybe add at kegging after cold crashing. I will keep you posted how it all goes. Thank you again for the input!

 

[oashlee]

UPDATE: I ended up mixing honey (maybe 1lb) and orange juice (~3 oranges) at high temperature to pasteurize. Then added some dried orange blossoms and let it steep for ~20 minutes. I added that mixture with half a vanilla bean to the fermentor for about two weeks. Came out great, although I did not get much vanilla, so I would add more if I had to do over. Also double dry hopped with Amarillo.

 

[archthered]

Sounds Great! Next time you may want to wait until fermentation is over to add the vanilla, alot of it can get stripped out when fermentation is chugging along. I often put my vanilla bean in with a bit of vodka, just enough to cover it, and let it sit for a couple weeks and then throw the vodka and bean into the secondary for a bit. That's a little tricky to do if you aren't going with a long secondary time, most of the beers I use vanilla in are stouts or porters and benefit from the time. I think the short turn around on yours was probably a good call.