Slow start with roeselare

[rorypayne]

Mine kicked off after about 48 hours I ferment at 68* I need to build a chamber bad but just haven't gotten around to it. After it started it took off better than most my fermentations.

 

[FredTheNuke]

Holy Chit! My 60 gallon rocket has sprung to life... Now I am scared - will 2 air locks be enough to keep the pressure in check...

 

[sweetcell]

I'm used to 2L starters that start usually within 2 hours

slighty OT: fermentation taking off after just 2 hours probably means you over-pitched. you barely got a lag phase, so you got few of the yeast flavors produced during that time. this is fine for beers where you don't want yeast flavors, but for ones that you do want them (belgians, some english, etc) you might want to pitch a little less.

 

[TNGabe]

slighty OT: fermentation taking off after just 2 hours probably means you over-pitched. you barely got a lag phase, so you got few of the yeast flavors produced during that time. this is fine for beers where you don't want yeast flavors, but for ones that you do want them (belgians, some english, etc) you might want to pitch a little less.

Flavor production doesn't occur during the lag phase, but rather during the exponential growth phase that follows.

 

[brewguyver]

Would doing a starter with the roeselaire be helpful, or does everyone just pitch straight in? I seem to remember something about doing a starter with a mix throws off the balance.

I'm looking at getting a few different Wyyeast and white labs sour strains and starting beers while I'm off work.

 

[TNGabe]

Would doing a starter with the roeselaire be helpful, or does everyone just pitch straight in? I seem to remember something about doing a starter with a mix throws off the balance.

I'm looking at getting a few different Wyyeast and white labs sour strains and starting beers while I'm off work.

I wouldn't bother with the white labs stuff. I've got several beers going with WLP665 and they were all disspointing until I started adding bottle dregs to them.

 

[FredTheNuke]

From nothing to this amount of blowoff overnight (the bowl was empty last night). And it is just ramping up......

 

[dcHokie]

From nothing to this amount of blowoff overnight (the bowl was empty last night). And it is just ramping up......

Headspace question, is that line the 60 gallon mark?

 

[FredTheNuke]

Yes that is the 60 gallon mark - so there is very minimal head space. I just added some Fermcap-S and cleaned up the blow off tubing and bowl. No foam at all now - just good ole CO2 pumping out like crazy. The headspace will be completely CO2 as the pellicle forms (and there is room for the pellicle to form). So far so good!

Now should the replicating yeast cause the volume to increase to 61 gallons I will close the yeast trap valve and dump the trap (volume is 4700ml exactly). I can purge the trap with CO2 to be extra careful if fermentation has slowed by then.

 

[TNGabe]

Are you planning on leaving it in that plastic thing for aging?

 

[FredTheNuke]

It's a Solera - so yes. It will be in there for many many years. Each year I will dump the trub, remove 15 gallons and replenish with 16 new gallons and a pack of 3763.

Also if I am making a mistake or overlooking something PLEASE let me know - I have thick skin... I know I am pushing the boundaries of things like head space but hey it's what I like to do. This is my first sour.

 

[TNGabe]

It's a Solera - so yes. It will be in there for many many years. Each year I will dump the trub, remove 15 gallons and replenish with 16 new gallons and a pack of 3763.

Not concerned with the O2 permeability? I think you're going to end up with a vinegar.

 

[FredTheNuke]

If it was Medium Density Poly you would be spot on. The High Density Poly has been proven by others to keep the O2 down enough - not as much as a barrel but at reasonable levels.

 

[FredTheNuke]

Here is the source of my data (along with a few forums on the topic of HDPE Soleras). This is from Wild Brews. Now the important note is the LARGE HDPE conicals have very thick walls. The smaller ones and buckets are not suitable for sours. Also most smaller conicals are Medium Density instead of high (in the case of the Roto Molds this is true).

A wine barrel will allow 8.5. My conical will allow 20. Higher but not astronomical. There will be a little more of an acidic taste but hopefully bearable. Note that Jeff Sparrow states that the small oak barrel is acceptable (diffusion of 23 - higher than the HDPE conical).

 

[sweetcell]

Flavor production doesn't occur during the lag phase, but rather during the exponential growth phase that follows.

interesting. that article is 15 years old... i'm wondering if thinking hasn't changed on this. a different authority on yeast, JZ, has stated many times that most yeast flavor is generated very early in fermentation, and by the time you have active fermentation (visible churning, etc) most flavors have been created. time to break out my copy of "Yeast" and see if these two arrived at an agreed-to conclusion.

 

[TNGabe]

interesting. that article is 15 years old... i'm wondering if thinking hasn't changed on this. a different authority on yeast, JZ, has stated many times that most yeast flavor is generated very early in fermentation, and by the time you have active fermentation (visible churning, etc) most flavors have been created. time to break out my copy of "Yeast" and see if these two arrived at an agreed-to conclusion.

Let's give credit where credit is due. Chris White is listed as the main author. (I think JZ is wrong about as much as he's right…)

Anywho, p67, 1st paragraph, 'Other than these precursors, yeast produces minimal flavor compounds during the lag phase. Yeast produce minimal ethanol at this stage, so ester formation is not a concern. Yeast do not create esters until they first make an appreciable amount of alcohols.' It goes on to say that overpitching does not create optimally healthy yeast, but also that the exponential phase can start in as little as four hours without trouble.

Ugh, thanks for reminding me I've only made it half way through re-reading Yeast. It made no sense the first time, it's a little clearer now. I need to start reading Water, too. :cross:

 

[Calder]

Would doing a starter with the roeselaire be helpful, or does everyone just pitch straight in? I seem to remember something about doing a starter with a mix throws off the balance.

No, you do not want to use a starter. A starter will just increase the sacc yeast. the pack is designed with a low cell count of sacc to allow the Lacto and Brett to get some traction before the sacc gets going. You will find it slower to start than a normal yeast due to the lower cell count.

 

[statseeker]

You could in theory do a starter of roselare. You just have to compensate for the higher population of the sacch by making a more unfermentable wort. Mashing at 157 or using adjuncts like flaked wheat in much higher than normal quantities. This was going to be my approach when I do a sour the beginning of next year.

 

[sweetcell]

You could in theory do a starter of roselare. You just have to compensate for the higher population of the sacch by making a more unfermentable wort. Mashing at 157 or using adjuncts like flaked wheat in much higher than normal quantities. This was going to be my approach when I do a sour the beginning of next year.

i wouldn't make a starter. lacto doesn't like oxygen, so you may be harming their population while increasing the sacch. sacch is easy to come by, the bugs are the main reason one buys 3763.

"compensate for the higher population of the sacch by making a more unfermentable wort" = it will take longer for your beer to sour, because the bugs will need months longer to get their populations to the right levels, then they have to chew through all those unfermentables. bugs work very slowly.

i think investing $7-8 in another smack-pack (and making a starter with that if needed) is better use of resources than waiting 2 years for a beer to get sufficiently sour & complex. i believe that the sacch is Roeselare is 3522 (Ardennes).

aside: why can't wyest make a bugs-only version of Roeselare?!?

 

[brewguyver]

I'm going to be trading some of my EYB slurry for a 2nd gen pitch of roeselare, assuming another mid December heat wave doesn't trigger a 3rd pelecule on some of the jugs.

 

[rorypayne]

Sorry to sound like a noob but I just did my first sour and I wondering what eyb is.

 

[brewguyver]

Sorry to sound like a noob but I just did my first sour and I wondering what eyb is.

Sorry - meant EBY. EBY/BBA is a wild yeast experiment to help map characteristics of the corresponding samples pulled from commercial sours.

EYB is something else entirely (yeast bank?).

 

[rorypayne]

I would def trade but my roselare is only 7 days old and I'm sure the slurry wouldn't be worth much yet. The bugs haven't had n e chance to grow.