Slow fermentation and poor flocculation

[Beucepholis]

First time poster and noob, but I think this question belongs here(?)

Made two 3 gallon BIAB batches of the same ESB with a 7 ingredient grain bill, goldings, and Nottingham yeast. First one went a bit sideways with a high mash temp and second was dead on. First used a secondary, second stayed in primary.

Both fermented...very...slowly. Started at 1.042 and was down to 1.020 in 2.5 weeks, then crept down at a point or two a day. Halfway through week 3 I got nervous about off flavors and started to run low on beer from the hydrometer readings. I bottled at around 20 days both times. the beer is yeasty. As in yeast bite. Even the one I racked to secondary.

I can find nothing on the forum about low gravity (3.8-4.8abv) beer fermenting oh so slow but steady. And Nottingham is supposed to flocc well.

Tips for an audacious beginner?


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[indianajns]

Nice choice of beers. ESB is one of my top 3 beers can't get enough of it. You said it dropped to 1.020 then dropped a few points after that. What was your actual final gravity? Can you elaborate on what you mean when you say, "started to run low on beer from the hydrometer readings" Also, What temperature did you pitch the yeast and what temp did you ferment?

 

[Beucepholis]

Thanks.

First batch ended at 1.017 but I marked that up to poor conversion due to high mash temp.

Second batch got down to 1.015 which is just one point above the recipes FG.

I did not add the beer back to the batch after hydrometer readings based on posts in this forum. Because the gravity fell so slowly I would wait several days between readings, assuming the "next" reading would be at FG, but it never stopped dropping. Each reading took another 280 ml away from the yield. Over time this took a toll.

The first batch was pitched far too hot and started out slowly, eventually bubbling pretty well. The second batch was pitched at around 70c, same temp as the hydrated yeast.

Both were fermented between 68f and 71f.


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[nate191]

Glad to hear your brewing ESB!

When I have friends who want to start brewing I usually don't recommend BIAB. In my experience its difficult to nail mash temp with BIAB and with the high water to grain ratio its easy to have a lot of dextrin in your finished beer. The dextrin levels could be from low levels of beta-amalyse in your mash. The BIAB method in my experience, sort of exaggerates the sensitivity of your mash temps so low end temps will give you a very dry finish and high temps will do the opposite.

I would recommend either a nice digital thermometer with a probe to keep a close eye on your mash temps or try extract and partial mash brewing.

good luck!

 

[HappiBrew]

I love Nottingham as a yeast for maltier and English style beers. It's a good floccer . One thing that can effect both flocculation and attenuation is low calcium. What kind of water do you brew with?

 

[Beucepholis]

Thanks both for your great input.

Nate191: I appreciate the suggestion. I am tenacious to the point of stupidity, so I'm going to nail BIAB if I can. If it breaks me I'll take your advice and start at the beginning. Do you have a suggestion on a thermometer? I was using both a side clip analog thermometer and an instant read probe, taking temps constantly on the second batch, and stirring like a dervish. I think I've got the mash temp down. Then again, extra dextrin would account for my (hitherto unmentioned) overcarbonation issue, wouldn't it?

And HappiBrew, you may have nailed this. I'm in Vancouver BC Canada. Using our awesome tap water. Although good to drink, it is practically 100% hard. low calcium is almost a given, and that matches my primary symptoms perfectly. Should I be treating with gypsum/epsom/other? What do people suggest for a "start from scratch" soft water cocktail kit? Happy to pursue a water analysis, but want to keep improving in the meantime.

 

[kh54s10]

Calibrate your thermometers. 32 in crushed ice with just enough water to fill, not float the ice, and 212 degrees in boiling water.

Water: store bought spring water or reverse osmosis water. You might do an internet search to see if additions are made for a particular brand.

Another thought. High fermentation temperature should speed up the fermentation rather than slow it. At the temperatures you have stated you should have had a quick fermentation, not a slow one. This one has me stumped.

If you had over carbonation there are these possibilities; Too much priming sugar, not at final gravity when bottled, or infection.

 

[indianajns]

+1 on Happi's low calcium suggestion., I use RO and build up. If you want to go this route and dont have access to RO buy distilled. My ESB has done well in comps and I use the following water profile with my RO water for ESB:

Ca= 104
Mg = 0
Na = 70
SO4 = 206
Cl = 44
HC03 = 0

 

[HappiBrew]

I'm still messing with water chemistry but I started off with store bought spring water. Now I cut it with a portion of distilled water and add back what I think it needs per the style.

The 2 best sources of calcium are Gypsum (calcium sulfate) and chalk (calcium chloride). Your chloride to sulfate ratio is the biggest thing to look at (along with residual alkalinity) in determining what water to use per style. A higher sulfate to chloride ratio favors more hop presence and a crisper finish (as does lower alkalinity). A higher chloride ratio will favor a rounder, softer, more malty beer (as does higher alkalinity).

So what yo choose to add to bring up your calcium will be a matter of taste. To start off with , you may just want to make them even and experiment from there. I personally like a 2:1 sulfate to chloride for all my IPAs and pales and do the opposite for dark, malty or creamy beers.

 

[nate191]

Do you have a suggestion on a thermometer?

I use a probe thermometer. Bed, bath and beyond sells a pretty good cheep digital. Just make sure you tape it into a ziplock bag or something to keep moisture out. They are resistant, but high temperature moisture skewed my readings permanently with my first one. Stay away from the beyond section.

 

[Beucepholis]

Hi all.

Thanks for chiming in. There is a new development in batch #2: a bottle bomb. I've cracked the rest of the batch open and had gushers every time. Enough to blow the caps and Bails right off of my 1L howe sound Potstopper bottles. This is day 27 after bottling.

To recap (and I know there are several plausible answers above,). Why would a beer start out fermenting happily for 4 days, then slow down to a crawl so that Achieving the recipes FG takes a full three weeks, and then still have enough leftover sugar at that point to blow up bottles four weeks later?

Is this timeline sluggish or am I misguided?



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[HappiBrew]

With an SG of 1.042, that should have been fermented enough to not get bottle bombs in about 5 days if you had a short enough lag time. So normally, it would slow in about 4 days. You'd let it go a bit longer to condition but it should have been mostly attenuated. There are several other factors at play if it isn't finishing at all, including the calcium mentioned, temperature control, health and viability of you pitch, etc. I usually have good luck with Notty though. I used it before I had temp control and found it very forgiving in the summer, winter and when I didn't get around to rehydrating...
What was the FG of batch 2? Are you sure it didn't finish? Maybe it was something in the bottling like too much sugar...What was your bottling procedure like? Did you use a priming sugar calculator?

 

[Beucepholis]

Absolutely could be bad priming calculation but I was so careful! Used a calculator. 1/3c table sugar boiled in 2cups water for a 2.5g yeild. Bad math here?

Og was ten points higher than target at 1.052. FG was one point higher than recipe after three weeks of slowly coming down: 1.014

 

[Beucepholis]

So... Redid the math and yes I used too much priming sugar, but not enough for a bottle bomb.


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[HappiBrew]

Hmm. I guess I'm at a loss. Hopefully someone with more experience will chime in.

 

[Beucepholis]

For anyone who wants to know what actually happened here, I did eventually find my answer. I had a wild yeast strain in my bottling cane. I didn't realize how it came apart, and I hadn't washed it properly from my inaugural brew. The beers just kept slowly fermenting because something else was eating the sugar. I'm 100% sure of this. If the intestinal distress didn't give it away, the 1L bottle that freaking exploded in my closet certainly did. I noticed it at 6am and sweetly woke my wife, telling her to take the kids to grandma and grandpa's for the day. Then an 8 hour day of cleaning ESB off of closet slats, guitar cases, white carpet, percussion sets, etc, etc, etc.

I've since moved into a house where my bottles can explode in relative privacy. Also, I've graduated to a 5g system and am currently designing a steam mashing system. Funny how this hobby just keeps growing.

Cheers,

Chris