Single vessel ebiab w no pump

[applescrap]

I kind of started this discussion elsewhere but I am still seeking some definitive information on running A single vessel system without a pump. It seems to me that a super low density element like the one I bought trying to keep a mash at 152 and the controller potentiometer set low would not scorch anything and would only require being stirred every 20 minutes or so to keep from hot spots. I really don't want to add unneeded expense and extra equipment if I don't have to. I mean if it would scorch so bad then how does it keep from scorching when you go from mash to boil. I am also aware that I could just turn the element off and insulate the kettle and it will lose very little time but I want to be outside thank you everybody so much

 

[iijakii]

And I am also aware that I could just turn the element off and insulate the kettle and it will lose very little time but I want to be outside

Could you explain this more? I'm not understanding what being outside has to do with insulation?

 

[jeffmeh]

Are you going to keep asking the question until you get the answer you want? A bunch of people recommended against it, due to likely scorching issues. Perhaps it will work, but likely not IMO.

 

[applescrap]

I'm going to keep asking until I get the answer from someone who's tried it.

 

[applescrap]

Just assuming that being outside in the winter in Colorado will be more difficult to keep it insulated than inside

 

[applescrap]

I've already talked to one person as stated who said the element doesn't even melt his bag I'm going to have to turn that thing on full blast to start a boil why won't it scorch then. Propane Brewers that brew outside keep heat on mashes do they not.

 

[applescrap]

I am starting a kick butt system that can brew 15 gallons of beer for under $500 in less than three and a half hours if I have to be inside I will just insulate and lose a couple degrees but I don't think this element will hurt anything

 

[iijakii]

I've not tried running an element inside the mash, so not going to comment / debate about that. I will say I do believe there's a reason people don't do it for good reason, though. Here's a good example of someone setting out no-pump but had too much stratification issues without it: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=526370

You can insulate still during the winter. It's not like rubbermaid cooler brewers can't brew outside in the winter. For instance I'm experimenting with a big cardboard box that's lined with insulation. It's OK so far -- but I think I've losing some heat to airgaps at the bottom (can't go all the way down because of power cord etc). Going to try and wrap a couple towels on the bottom and see if that fixes it.

Maybe you'll have better luck but I think you'll regret trying to go to a middle-of-the-road solution and winding up with mroe cost/hassle without the results to show for it. Either get a pump/PID setup or insulate.

 

[applescrap]

Thanks iijakii I see you post a lot and I like your post. As stated above I appreciate your willingness to admit you don't know. Check out my other thread on heat stick. I think you will like what I am up to I have a PID and a heat stick on the way which is all plug and play no fuss No wiring no mounting nada. Brew Heaven. For $90 I am going to buy a 30 gallon kettle so I can brew 5 10 15 whatever I want move in the element around as needed. I'm not sure about people not using electric in the mash dude it seems there are a lot of single vessel systems popping up and people are buying expensive ready made ones. Your ideas are brilliant and I like the box

 

[pretzelb]

Thanks iijakii I see you post a lot and I like your post. As stated above I appreciate your willingness to admit you don't know. Check out my other thread on heat stick. I think you will like what I am up to I have a PID and a heat stick on the way which is all plug and play no fuss No wiring no mounting nada. Brew Heaven.

Did you notice where he also quoted an example of no-pump not working?

 

[applescrap]

Thank you much for pointing out yeah I read that thread that became a debate about not using a false bottom and actually that thread lead me to the person who claims using no pump works. He's not just claiming I know it works for him we've talked. Just curious if anybody else has tried it

 

[pretzelb]

Ok. Good luck.

 

[TexasWine]

I'm going to have to turn that thing on full blast to start a boil why won't it scorch then.

I've scorched three batches. Two times was as I was bringing my wort up to a boil. That's why I now always run my pump during that time. The other time was because I stopped boiling and restarted it without recirculating or stirring.

A couple brew days ago I had heavy caramelization in my element because I momentarily forgot to unplug while doughing in. That's the closest I've come to scorching during the mash. It would have scorched had I not noticed.

I've seen countless threads where people have burned holes in their bags while applying heat during the mash. Ask wilserbrewer how many repairs he's made to bags with holes because of this.

You might get by with a no pump + controller system for several batches if you have a well insulated kettle that doesn't require the element to kick on very much or for very long. Also it will help if you mill very coarsely so as not to make much flour. But I'm also confident that one day it'll bite you.

Also, you should know that you can add a pump to your system for $50 or less. I'm not trying to justify an expense because my system is really very cheap.

 

[applescrap]

Cool that's the information I was looking for. I'm still surprised I don't think brew boss or high gravity systems call for recirculation while bringing to boil in the demo that brew radio guys do on high gravity system they dont recirculate into boil but I think it's also 110. If scorching is such a problem why do people use electric then now I'm starting to worry if I should have just stayed on my stove

 

[applescrap]

The controller I bought has room for a pump and in the future I won't mind splashing out for a pump will need it for plate chiller anyways I still will probably only put one hole in pot for drain to pump and just run long silicone tube into pot. Based on problems people have had with pump and cavitation just figured would like to save the expense

 

[applescrap]

With a good false bottom I don't think the bag will touch element I hope and I think getting a controller with a potentiometer will help as well

 

[iijakii]

With a good false bottom I don't think the bag will touch element I hope and I think getting a controller with a potentiometer will help as well

It's not just about physical touching, but also temperature stratification. Depending on your probe placement it's possible to see huge 10+ degree stratifications in water alone when you go to stir. That's fine for heating up strike water, all you have to do is stir occassionally / when it's approaching temp. But add in mash thickness and you're not having a good time.

I've seen guys with larger batch systems that are recirculating through a HERMS coil and still running into issues because their coils/pumps are too small and not having enough flow to maintain temps and mix. There are a lot of people that bought Stout tanks and wound up replacing the coil on them for that reason.

 

[iijakii]

Yeah -- anyone with an electric kettle can attest to hearing what sounds like boiling while their water is still only in mid 100s. It's fine for wort (might want to occassionally stir as some people run into scortching due to grinding too finely or running heavy rye bills and getting too much sediment on the elements etc) but with a mash you just have a super overheated section near the element.

 

[applescrap]

I see so many threads on people going Electric what are they all doing drinking scorched beer? I'm pissed stove is starting to look good

 

[iijakii]

I can't speak from experience, but all of the reports on it I've seen have been from people directly heating the mash without precautions and likely using HWD elements, or stopping the boil and restarting once all the particulates have settled on the element.

I've never had a scorched batch. I think the vast majority haven't either. You might if you try to directly heat your mash

 

[applescrap]

Yeah I bought what seems to be the most expensive element you can get that is supposedly low density. Seems I need to brew inside and just heat strike water and insulate as I have always done then stir as I come to boil . Are you using electric

 

[applescrap]

I use a down jacket and a towel over it to insulate loses 2 degrees from 1:54 to 1:52

 

[applescrap]

Also once again having a potentiometer to set the element really low during mash should help No

 

[iijakii]

I've had three electric systems. 2vessel RIMS (brutus 20) to a 3veseel HERMS setup and now just made a BIAB system. Your 2F loss is respectable, and you should be able to move outside with ease -- just kick up your insulation game a tad. A sleeping bag would be cheap and easy. Or try a box idea, reflectix, more towels whatever.

 

[iijakii]

Also once again having a potentiometer to set the element really low during mash should help No

I think it'd definitely help with scorching, but once again you'd probably wind up with something like 140F near the top and 180F near the element. You'd have to stir a lot. It's just counterproductive.

 

[TexasWine]

Seems I need to brew inside and just heat strike water and insulate as I have always done then stir as I come to boil .

Or you could get a pump for $50.

http://brausupply.com/collections/plumbing/products/brew-pump-24v

 

[guindilla]

I've got a 70L BiaB pot with two resistances - 2500W and 3000W low density. I do recirculate for mashing but not when I get to the boil, where I use full power. I've never had a scorched wort problem, and I've brewed many times with it.

 

[Bobby_M]

Electric brewing presents nuanced challenges that are easy to overcome as you get more experienced with it. It's best to not take in every potential problem, wrap them all together and have it looming over your head.

 

[AnOldUR]

. . . I'm going to keep asking until I get the answer from someone who's tried it . . .

Not for BIAB, but I mash in a 15 gallon kettle with a 1650W LWD element directly in the mash and use a potentiometer to control the output. As said, it does require constant stirring when the element is on (even when dialed way down to the point there will be no scorching) to prevent stratification.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Also once again having a potentiometer to set the element really low during mash should help No

Yes, setting the element low may avoid scorching. The problem as I perceive it is that the heat from the element does not distribute through the mash at all. A mash is like a dense stagnant mass with insulating properties, the heat added near the element will not really warm the entire mash, but just heat locally directly adjacent to the element.

You may have success stirring every 20 minutes or so. Insulation is your friend.