Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Issues

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mallob9

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Hello everyone,

I'm sure this question has been answered elsewhere in the forum, but I haven't found a succinct answer.

I'm fairly new to AG brewing, my third batch was yesterday. And thus far have had TERRIBLE brewhouse efficiencies (my first was at 60%, not too shabby, my second two have been in the mid 40's, AWEFUL! :mad:). I'm assuming my issue is in the sparge. Here's my question. I have Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge selected and inside of that I have the "Batch sparge using batches that fill 90%" ticked off "use equal batches" ticked off and "drain mash tun before sparging" ticked off.

In the recipe view/on my mobile app it says to, "Batch sparge with 2 steps (drain mash tun, 3.41 gal) of 168 degree water. What does this mean? Drain my mash tun, then add 3.41 gallons at 168 degrees? Because that wouldn't get my grain anywhere near the 168 degrees for the final bit of the mash, and thus screw my efficiency to my understanding, correct? After some reading I have decided that it means add 3.41 gallons of water that will get your grain bed up to 168 degrees.

Thanks everyone! I appreciate your responses! :mug:
 
mallob9 said:
Hello everyone,

I'm sure this question has been answered elsewhere in the forum, but I haven't found a succinct answer.

I'm fairly new to AG brewing, my third batch was yesterday. And thus far have had TERRIBLE brewhouse efficiencies (my first was at 60%, not too shabby, my second two have been in the mid 40's, AWEFUL! :mad:). I'm assuming my issue is in the sparge. Here's my question. I have Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge selected and inside of that I have the "Batch sparge using batches that fill 90%" ticked off "use equal batches" ticked off and "drain mash tun before sparging" ticked off.

In the recipe view/on my mobile app it says to, "Batch sparge with 2 steps (drain mash tun, 3.41 gal) of 168 degree water. What does this mean? Drain my mash tun, then add 3.41 gallons at 168 degrees? Because that wouldn't get my grain anywhere near the 168 degrees for the final bit of the mash, and thus screw my efficiency to my understanding, correct? After some reading I have decided that it means add 3.41 gallons of water that will get your grain bed up to 168 degrees.

Thanks everyone! I appreciate your responses! :mug:
Click to expand...

For whatever reason, Beersmith always says to use 168 degree sparge water. I always went hotter, more like 180 degrees, after draining the first runnings to get the grainbed up to 168.

Keep in mind that this is not the cause of your lower efficiency, though. Kai Troester has published some experiments, and shown that sparging with cold water is just as effective as sparging with a grainbed at 168- so it's not the issue that is causing you efficiency issues.

You can do a single batch sparge with your entire volume, unless it doesn't all fit in your MLT. You don't have to split it up. If you want to make sure you get the grainbed up to 168 for some reason, check the fly/continous sparge and use the volume at the temperature Beersmith says for a mash out for your first round of batch sparging. But again, you certainly don't have to do that to have an effective round of batch sparging.

Generally, efficiency issues are related to grain crush. How well is your grain crushed, and who does it for you?
 
Thanks for the reply, I thought the grain bed should get up to 168 in order to stop conversion. I was under the impression that this was important, now i know it isn't haha. I had these crushed at my LHBS. I Have since moved and will no longer be using that store. Next time I get grains I'll check to see how well they're crushed.

Any ideas as to why it's so low? My mash temp only dropped by 2 degrees and I stirred at least 2, maybe 4x, (I can't remember). Then I drained my mash tun and added the sparge water and let that soak for roughly 10 min. I don't think I have enough space to add the sparge water without draining.
 
When I do lower gravity beers (low 50(s)), I get 70+% efficiency. But when I tried a higher gravity beer I got much lower % efficiency.

Ken Swartz has a website where he says to step up the grain bill to meet the recipe's intended OG when batch sparging. As the OG gets higher the additional grain bill gets larger.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
A couple questions...though I am by no means an expert. What are you mashing at? Also are you stirring your grains after you've added the sparge water? Other than that I would suggest checking the crush too. Almost all LHBS are set to much too coarse of a grind. I was seeing low efficiency the first couple times I batch sparged and I made my crush finer and I stir the hell out of the sparge water, vorlauft, and then if needed stir about halfway through draining the sparge and vorlauft again.
 
I would think finer crush and maybe longer mash will be a bigger help re: efficiency than trying to do anything differently with your batch sparge (provided your strike / sparge water volumes aren't far away from "normal"). Maybe getting an adjustable mill is in your future. Also don't think you should need to stir during your mash - I think with a single infusion + batch sparge, it's pretty much the norm to stir at dough-in, let it rest the whole mash to retain temp, drain, add sparge water & stir once, let it sit to set up a bit if you wish, drain.
 
Awsome, thanks guys. jmljr, I thought i responded to you but apparently not, I mashed at 152 which dropped down to 150 over the hour. Yes I stirred after adding the sparge water, and I'm going to use a local brewers mill next time I brew. As I said, I moved and there isn't really a LHBS in my area, so I'm gonna buy my grains elsewhere and use a brewers mill in town.

Do you think the freshness of the grains could be a factor? I've had these for probably close to 2 months just waiting for me to have the time to brew.

thanks again :)
 
I've been told to really stir the grains well, during mash and sparge. It helps dissolve the sugars.

Watching a john Palmer video, he doesn't hold back stirring.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
You mention brew house efficiency but not mash efficiency. Brew house efficiency has many more factors like how much trub you leave in the brew kettle, if you spill anything, mash turn deadspace volumes, and of course mash efficiency. Don't confuse the two.

I can hit an 80% mash efficiency and still only get a 65% brew house efficiency because I brew 3.5 and 4 gallon batches so leaving a half gallon of break material in the bottom of my brew kettle and .4 gallon of mash turn dead space really hits the brew house efficiency.

So what is your mash efficiency? You may have to add the field to the design tab of beersmith. Mine only showed estimated mash efficiency until I hit the select fields button and added it.
 
Yooper said:
Kai Troester has published some experiments, and shown that sparging with cold water is just as effective as sparging with a grainbed at 168- so it's not the issue that is causing you efficiency issues.
Click to expand...

Hi Yooper, This is interesting. I've always been under the expectation that sparging 170+ was a key to good efficiency. Do you have a link to this information? I'd like to ready more about it. Thanks.
 
Rlmiller, I have estimated mash efficiency at the top, and measured efficiency on the right. I can't find where mash efficiency is to select it. I've clicked on 'select fields' but can't find mash efficiency anywhere.
 
What is your OG? Are you measuring it at 60 degrees or making a correction for higher temp? How are you measuring your final volume? What is the gravity of the last runnings of your second batch sparge? If you look at these variables you may be able to find your problem.
 
mallob9 said:
Rlmiller, I have estimated mash efficiency at the top, and measured efficiency on the right. I can't find where mash efficiency is to select it. I've clicked on 'select fields' but can't find mash efficiency anywhere.
Click to expand...

What version are you running? I am on 2.2 and when I hit the select fields button on the design tap I see what is in the attached image. You can see the bottom item is "measured mass eff" Note: The field in the image third from that bottom which says "Actual efficiency" displays on the design tab as "measured efficiency"

On my last beer I used leaf hops and had a lot of break material so left quite a bit in the brew kettle. My measured efficiency read as 62.8% while my measured mash efficiency showed 77%.

measured eff.JPG
 
Grain crush will have a huge effect on efficiency. We set ours to 0.035" and recheck it every once in a while. The grains are visibly different than the LHBS, that uses a US Quarter to set theirs (~0.069"). We get around 75-85% mash efficiencies with our mill; were lucky to get 65% from the store.

That is mash efficiency, the total sugars collected out of the theoretical 100% possible from that grist...everything else after that will cause a drop in brewhouse efficiency (never increases from the mash efficiency). Mash efficiency is one part of the brewhouse efficiency.

So, you have to look at the mash efficiency to determine if your losses are there, or are they somewhere else in your process. Mashing/sparging is a fairly simple process; there is a lot of complexity that goes into it, but it is not complicated....add hot water, stir, wait, drain...repeat.

The sparging "technique" part should have negligible impact on overall efficiency, as long as you sparge. The magic of conversion is[should be] completed already before this step, this just rinses some extra sugar from the grain. Two separate sparges (take the total sparge water needed, divide by two, sparge/drain twice) will increase extraction efficiency, but not overly much...this is the law of diminishing returns.

Are you sure your thermometer is correct/accurate? If it is reading high by 5°F, you could have mashed at 148 and dropped to 146.

It takes a while to do it, but you should accurately measure volumes in every one of your vessels, and also drain them all like you would on brew day, then accurately measure whatever is left in each vessel. Once you have a handle on all of your losses, and are sure all of your measurements are accurate (volumes and temp being key), then you can start tracking down your losses....until then, you may still be looking at "issues" from inaccurate data, which would make your corrections also inaccurate.
 
mthompson said:
Grain crush will have a huge effect on efficiency. We set ours to 0.035" and recheck it every once in a while. The grains are visibly different than the LHBS, that uses a US Quarter to set theirs (~0.069"). We get around 75-85% mash efficiencies with our mill; were lucky to get 65% from the store.

That is mash efficiency, the total sugars collected out of the theoretical 100% possible from that grist...everything else after that will cause a drop in brewhouse efficiency (never increases from the mash efficiency). Mash efficiency is one part of the brewhouse efficiency.

So, you have to look at the mash efficiency to determine if your losses are there, or are they somewhere else in your process. Mashing/sparging is a fairly simple process; there is a lot of complexity that goes into it, but it is not complicated....add hot water, stir, wait, drain...repeat.

The sparging "technique" part should have negligible impact on overall efficiency, as long as you sparge. The magic of conversion is[should be] completed already before this step, this just rinses some extra sugar from the grain. Two separate sparges (take the total sparge water needed, divide by two, sparge/drain twice) will increase extraction efficiency, but not overly much...this is the law of diminishing returns.

Are you sure your thermometer is correct/accurate? If it is reading high by 5°F, you could have mashed at 148 and dropped to 146.

It takes a while to do it, but you should accurately measure volumes in every one of your vessels, and also drain them all like you would on brew day, then accurately measure whatever is left in each vessel. Once you have a handle on all of your losses, and are sure all of your measurements are accurate (volumes and temp being key), then you can start tracking down your losses....until then, you may still be looking at "issues" from inaccurate data, which would make your corrections also inaccurate.
Click to expand...

Good advice, but I also check conversion efficiency when I'm tracking down problems. Knowing conversion efficiency helps you understand your mash efficiency, which in turn helps you understand your brewhouse efficiency.
 
Denny said:
Good advice, but I also check conversion efficiency when I'm tracking down problems. Knowing conversion efficiency helps you understand your mash efficiency, which in turn helps you understand your brewhouse efficiency.
Click to expand...

The answer to data is more data. :mug:

I accurately measure mash water in, first runnings volume out and gravity, all sprage volumes in/out with gravities, pre-boil volume/gravity (once mixed a few minutes from boiling), then post-boil volume/gravity, and also what I actually cast-out into fermentors (before yeast pitch).

***measure water accurately into your fermentors and mark accordingly....NEVER trust the stupid factory markings!***

I calculate my efficiencies as "conversion" (first runnings), "mash" (total pre-boil) and "brewhouse" (volume to fermentor/gravity based on total possible).

My 10gal wheat on Saturday was... 75% conversion, 74% mash, and 73% brewhouse.
 
My measured mash eff was 58.2% my measured efficiency was 55.8%. Right after my last brew i measured deadspace in my boil kettle and made a dipstick so I can know how much is in my HLT and BK at any time. I hadn't thought to see if my thermometer was accurate, i'll give that a try tonight. For the deadspace that's in my BK, I should enter that number into the "Loss to Trub and Chiller" correct?

I have yet to check the pH of my mash but will on my next brewday which should hopefully be this weekend or early next week.

Thanks again for all of the advice/things i need to pay better attention to.

You guys rock! :mug:
 
Were all of your expected volumes close or right on? I mean, you didn't end up with 4 gallons instead of 5.5 or something, right?

As long as the water volumes ended right, I'd check the thermometer and make sure of the gap setting on whatever grain mill you use.
 
mthompson said:
The answer to data is more data. :mug:

I accurately measure mash water in, first runnings volume out and gravity, all sprage volumes in/out with gravities, pre-boil volume/gravity (once mixed a few minutes from boiling), then post-boil volume/gravity, and also what I actually cast-out into fermentors (before yeast pitch).

***measure water accurately into your fermentors and mark accordingly....NEVER trust the stupid factory markings!***

I calculate my efficiencies as "conversion" (first runnings), "mash" (total pre-boil) and "brewhouse" (volume to fermentor/gravity based on total possible).

My 10gal wheat on Saturday was... 75% conversion, 74% mash, and 73% brewhouse.
Click to expand...

My last APA was 100% conversion, 91% mash, 88% brewhouse.
 
Seems like a fun mistake to make! hahaha, I had to top off my fermenter with about a half gallon so I lost a bit to the bottom of the boil kettle, but I have since measured that dead space and hopefully added it correctly in BeerSmith. No one answered my question there about putting the dead space from the boil kettle in the spot where it says loss to cooling and trub or something like that. I am correct right?

Also, the next time I mill grains I will be using whatever setting one of the local breweries uses, which I imagine is much finer than the one at the LHBS I was going to.
 
I cannot speak for Beersmith corrections, but there should be a spot for "loss to tun" and "loss to kettle". I use an online calculator for water and hand writing my recipes/brew days on the Kaiser Brew Log....I hope I never lose that three-ringed binder.

I have never been fond of the brewing software because they always seem to change stuff up about every year or so, and I hate having to learn a new order to things!!!
 
mallob9 said:
Also, the next time I mill grains I will be using whatever setting one of the local breweries uses, which I imagine is much finer than the one at the LHBS I was going to.
Click to expand...

That might be a good place to start. But keep in mind that unless they use exactly the same equipment, it may not be the best setting for you. The best thing to do is learn what a good crush looks like, experiment with your equipment, and decide what the best setting for you is.
 
mallob9 said:
Seems like a fun mistake to make! hahaha, I had to top off my fermenter with about a half gallon so I lost a bit to the bottom of the boil kettle, but I have since measured that dead space and hopefully added it correctly in BeerSmith. No one answered my question there about putting the dead space from the boil kettle in the spot where it says loss to cooling and trub or something like that. I am correct right?

Also, the next time I mill grains I will be using whatever setting one of the local breweries uses, which I imagine is much finer than the one at the LHBS I was going to.
Click to expand...

Yes, in the Trub loss field put any kettle dead space and additional beer you leave behind to avoid the hops and break material (trub) you leave in the kettle. This amount has a big effect on your brewhouse efficiency but is important for the software to calculate the water volumes correctly.
 
Thanks everyone! I just ordered ingredients for 4-5 beers. Hopefully this and more experience will lend itself to better conversions :ban:
 
My thermometer was/is 3* low. I tested it by boiling water and comparing what it should be at my altitude (197.8* F) to what I was reading (195*F). I have one of those brinkmann turkey fryer thermometers. Does anyone know if they can be adjusted? I know some dial thermometers can be. I can't find anywhere that says if it is. Shas anyone done it?

*Edit* I have successfully adjusted my thermometer by turning the screw at the base of the dial.
 
So I seem to have gotten this issue sorted out. My last batch, which was today, I had a Mash Eff of 81.9% and an overall efficiency of 70.3% which I am STOKED about! I adjusted my thermometer which I'm sure played a role, but I think the biggest factor, and I can say this with pretty scientific certainty because it was the only variable I changed in my last two brews. I started not letting any wort stay in the boil kettle. Originally I had calculated the dead space in the kettle and just let that wort stay in there. My theory is that whilst cooling the wort all of the sugars would drop to the bottom of the kettle. And thus I wouldn't be getting them into my carboy. Now I've started stirring while I rack the beer from the kettle and pouring all of the liquid from the BK into the carboy. Next time, I'm going to try draining the dead space from my mash tun. I don't think this will have much effect since all of the sugar should be in a relatively homogenous mixture in the mash.
 
mallob9 said:
So I seem to have gotten this issue sorted out. My last batch, which was today, I had a Mash Eff of 81.9% and an overall efficiency of 70.3% which I am STOKED about! I adjusted my thermometer which I'm sure played a role, but I think the biggest factor, and I can say this with pretty scientific certainty because it was the only variable I changed in my last two brews. I started not letting any wort stay in the boil kettle. Originally I had calculated the dead space in the kettle and just let that wort stay in there. My theory is that whilst cooling the wort all of the sugars would drop to the bottom of the kettle. And thus I wouldn't be getting them into my carboy. Now I've started stirring while I rack the beer from the kettle and pouring all of the liquid from the BK into the carboy. Next time, I'm going to try draining the dead space from my mash tun. I don't think this will have much effect since all of the sugar should be in a relatively homogenous mixture in the mash.
Click to expand...


I would definitely start looking for losses in wort along the way, then either correct for them in the water/grist or try to change the process to reclaim some of it.

I only lose about 2-3% points after the mash. (unless the recipe has a lot of hops, since I use mostly whole leaf and they suck up a bunch).
 
I had a problem with low mash efficiency this weekend with Yooper's Rogue Dead Guy recipe. I came in .013 below the calculated OG in Beersmith :( and I'm pretty sure it's the crush from the mill at the LHBS- either they "readjusted" it or somebody was turning knobs they weren't supposed to, cause it didn't look as fine as usual. I started batch sparging about 6 months ago, after I heard Denny explain it on the Session. My brewday numbers used to be all over the map, but using the batch sparge I either hit them right on or get within 3 or so points. Since this is a recent thing and I haven't changed anything else in my process I'm chalking it up to a bad crush. I guess in closing, this would be a plug to purchase your own grist mill if you can afford it at all. That's one less wild card to deal with come brewday :)
 

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