Simple Brewing est. 2009 : The build

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

If you un-plug the box, before you unplug the cord from the wall, you have exposed live 120v "prongs"
When you look at a cord laying on the floor, if you see the prongs, you usually assume it's safe.

Ed

Ahhh.... That makes sense. Hmmmm. Maybe we will have to change it, or I will just tell him to be careful. Thanks!

I want to be able to buy one of these boxes assembled. Could be very marketable.

I have considered marketing them once we have this one up and running and tested. The cost for the full brewery including some profit would likely be $1,000-1,200. The box alone would be about $550-650. Do you think there would be a market for that?

 

[RonRock]

One more thing to consider. If someone plugged the line voltage into the wrong receptacle would it backfeed and foul up the PID? I did not study the wiring very well, might not be a problem. But having a "Hot" plug would not be good. Should defiantly change that.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

The big thing I am curious about is how you intend to get a full five gallons out of a 7.5 gallon brew kettle. For me, I have to start with roughly 8.3 gallons in my kettle to allow for evaporation and transfer losses.

Good luck with the build.

You boil off 3+ gallons in a standard boil??? You may want to turn down the heat as that is pretty excessive. I boil off just under a gallon and a half in my current rig. Also, this will be for four gallon finished batches.

Any more links to male receptacles would be great!

 

[Ohio-Ed]

You boil off 3+ gallons in a standard boil??? You may want to turn down the heat as that is pretty excessive. I boil off just under a gallon and a half in my current rig. Also, this will be for four gallon finished batches.

Any more links to male receptacles would be great!

Here's an example. This one happens to be a 20a twist loc...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Used-Hubbell-23...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3357e66ed1

The boil off also depends on the size/shape of your BK. The larger diameter, the more surface is exposed for evaporation. But I agree, 3+ gallons seems to be alot.

Good Luck.

 

[Wayne1]

I don't boil off 3 + gallons. Evaporation is roughly 2.25 gallons. I do brew at 5280 feet.
0.625 gallons stays behind in my kettle along with trub.

I usually put 5.5 to 5.7 gallons goes into my fermenter. I have roughly another 0.4 gallons of loss in transfer off yeast into secondary and then into a keg. I have measured all my losses and incorporated them into my calculations so I do end up with a full 5 gallons into my keg.

 

[wyzazz]

@Wayne1

Smart man, I do the same thing! Great minds...

 

[snowrs]

This thread got me to register mostly because I don't want anyone to die. Please for the love of your mother do two things before you use this. First do not use a male male plug to plug this in, a live prong on the floor is asking for trouble, next this is going to be in a wet area and I see no GFCI outlets on this box which is another way to go poof. So if you use this make sure you atleast plug it into a GFCI outlet in your house

Also it is hard to tell from the pics but that wire looks like it is not 12ga or larger which is not rated in an enclosed area for 20A. Also most house circuits have 15A breakers so if you fused correctly you may have trouble having breakers pop when fed from one source. Just some friendly advice who spent alot of money getting an engineering degree

 

[CodeRage]

Also it is hard to tell from the pics but that wire looks like it is not 12ga or larger which is not rated in an enclosed area for 20A. Also most house circuits have 15A breakers so if you fused correctly you may have trouble having breakers pop when fed from one source. Just some friendly advice who spent alot of money getting an engineering degree

Thanks for the concern but 14 AWG is rated for 20 amps. The enclosure is well ventilated and will remain well within the insulations rating. The major source of heat in the enclosure is the SSR and TBH, they don't generate that much heat at the rates an Auber PID switches them.

Most lighting and receptacle circuits are 20amps.

GFCIs are great, don't get me wrong but, they are not always practical. March pumps have a tendency to leak enough current to the chassis to pop them. That is if you have the chassis grounded like you are supposed to. If I had to choose between a well grounded system or a gfci, I'll pick grounding.

Thank you for being concerned enough to register, and welcome to the board .

 

[snowrs]

As a newbie to the board I will refrain from arguments I was just trying to get him to codes especially if he tries to sell one to anyone else. Thanks for the welcome

 

[CodeRage]

As a newbie to the board I will refrain from arguments I was just trying to get him to codes especially if he tries to sell one to anyone else. Thanks for the welcome

You were right about the 14awg. 15 amps... Been a long day. Any how, most residential is done with 12awg thus the 20 amp.. but I had in my head that is was 14awg.

 

[snowrs]

You all can tell me to shut up when ever but I also see BARE copper ground wires that are casually draped over live terminals, and we have liquid in a box with open terminals as well.

 

[OhioBrewingTechnologies]

You all can tell me to shut up when ever but I also see BARE copper ground wires that are casually draped over live terminals, and we have liquid in a box with open terminals as well.

It's a prototype, cut him some slack. Take a look at UL 916 or 60950-1. I don't know if either one covers liquid in the same chassis as wiring but they might. There may be a more appropriate safety standard for those. You can buy the docs for a few hundred bucks but if you're lucky your library will have them.

I'd be concerned about sheet metal thickness. At very rough glance looks like they want .056" thick for something that size.

Dan

 

[snowrs]

UL 916, 508, 489 are related to SCCR ratings in panels, but I get the drift I will be quiet. I was just afraid for the guys safety.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

snowrs- Thanks for the input and please don't be quiet! I love the feedback and the chance to make the design better. This is a prototype and we tried to save some cash with the wiring. Normally I would use stranded wire and green sheathed for the grounding plane.

All 20A service in the box is 12 AWG, any thing lower is 14 AWG and fused accordingly.

I realize that the male-to-male thing is not to code now. He may change that in the future and on any future builds I will definitely change that. However, he will not kill himself because of it... that is a bit silly. All he does is plug into the box first then the wall, problem solved. Also, unless you are wet or damp, 120 VAC shocks are scary but not really life threatening unless you have some other issue or some wicked bad luck.

I would be very interested in these box with liquid ratings if anyone can shine more light on it. Do I really qualify for that though? No liquid ever exits the pump within the enclosure.

Great feedback! Keep it coming!!!

 

[OhioBrewingTechnologies]

Well lookie here! Someone (by accident I hope) posted UL 499. Although this is for appliances that HEAT liquid, you can still get some ideas. Like section 11.3 saying even if liquid leaks, it better not be able to get to live parts.

There is a newer version of this standard than this, and there is probably a standard more applicable to what you are doing. Although it might apply to heating element.

www.dianyuan.com/bbs/u/42/1149554860.pdf

 

[bad coffee]

Sweet build. I'm gonna build one just like it!

To get around the wet and shocky parts in one box, why not get two smaller toolboxes? Have all your wiring in one box and the pump in the other. You can get the controller farther away from the pump and closer to the couch.

CHANGE THE FEMALE INPUT. Sooner or later you're gonna zap yourself with that 120v cattle prod. I think HD has male inputs the exact same shape as the female ones you have on the box. It's a $5 change.

I like the logo, too.

B

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

So basically for production, the pump should be liquidly isolated from the wiring. Would I need a second fan in the pump enclosure and have the pump enclosure completely separate (i.e., hermetically sealed away from the wiring, or would I just need a barrier wall?

The wiring stuff I know about (save for the male-male plug thing). That I can work out on my own given the cash to do so.

I had a feeling the enclosure would be a sticking point in making this thing "to code".

 

[bendavanza]

I would prefer to see the head of the pump on the outside of the electrical box like in the original illustrations. That would lower the chance of liquid in the box, the plastic head could break. And I agree with Bad Coffee, change the power input, just having a male to male cord lying around is trouble.

 

[OhioBrewingTechnologies]

You're going to want a separate ground connection to the top cover. The hinges can't be counted on for safety reasons. Being able to hinge it open means it's "field serviceable" which puts a whole new set of requirements on it. A trip to the library to grab 60950-1 could be worth the while.

About a year ago UL was working on a harmonized standard for temperature monitoring equipment. It wasn't due to be out in time for our purposes so I don't know the status. You might check UL website.

The PID is probably not FCC class B either. One guy calls FCC and says your box interferes with his TV and any money you haven't yet given to the gov't in taxes you'll give to them in fines. You may need a filter.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Sweet build. I'm gonna build one just like it!

To get around the wet and shocky parts in one box, why not get two smaller toolboxes?

Thanks! I am glad you like the idea. I can't take credit for the two vessel idea though and the 120VAC belongs to Jkarp.

I thought about the two box idea, but we thought the cool factor of the all-in-one unit was the best.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Me thinks I am finding why almost no electrical systems are available for retail purchase

 

[v2comp]

I bought 6 of these from this guy a few months ago and even though I know the spirit in which you designed the toolbox, I would suggest you go this route instead and save yourself some unnecessary headaches.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ELECTROMATE-ENC...lectrical_Equipment_Tools?hash=item45efa73d0a

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I'll pass on the standard enclosure, but good link.

The box in no headache for me. Most of the discussion here deals with potential problems if this were to be sold commercially. It looks like way to much of a headache to be worth it to me. No homebrewer will be willing to pay for an industrial grade control panel premade. Anyone who cares enough about the codes will already know enough to build their own. I believe this thread has gone back to purely DIY for homebrewers.

 

[v2comp]

I'll pass on the standard enclosure, but good link.

The box in no headache for me. Most of the discussion here deals with potential problems if this were to be sold commercially. It looks like way to much of a headache to be worth it to me. No homebrewer will be willing to pay for an industrial grade control panel premade. Anyone who cares enough about the codes will already know enough to build their own. I believe this thread has gone back to purely DIY for homebrewers.

no problem, I just tried something similar a few years ago and came to the same realization you did....lol

 

[snowrs]

The three issues I really think need to be adressed before you put this to use are the male power plug, lack of ground fault, and the bare copper conductors. I can say for certain if you leave the wiring like it is with bare copper conductors hovering above hot and neutral biases that at some point you will have ground carrying large amounts of current.

The whole reason I first responded to this thread is I just sent one of my electricians to the hospital because he got shocked, He has been an electrician for 20 years but he made a mistake with a meter and it bit him. I design electrical control systems for automotive and tier one suppliers for a living. People do not treat 120VAC with the respect it deserves because they have all seen where a guy gets zapped and he jerks away and laughs. 120 can and will kill. Bare copper in with water potential and hovering above live buss bars is asking for trouble take my advice or not but I have seen this many times.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

The system is GFCI. It will be plugged into a GFCI outlet. For times when that is not available he has a point of use GFCI adapter.

I agree the bare copper is not ideal.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Last night during Monday Night Football (Go Pack!), Jeremy and I cut the top off the first keg.

WOW!!!! There is a good 1/2" of solid rubber surrounding the keg. That is going to make for some great insulation!

:rockin:

I didn't have my camera with me, but I will shoot some shots when we do some more work this weekend.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I still suck. I forgot my camera again. Anyway, element is installed, RTD is soldered in and working. Water is boiling!

Hopefully over the next week we will do some testing and I will remember my fooking camera.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

How important is it for the element to be near the bottom of the boil volume? At this point, with 4 gallons in the kettle, the element is about 3 inches below the surface, or just above the middle of the volume.

Will the action from the boiling water thoroughly mix the wort? Or do we need to lower the element?

 

[wyzazz]

Heat rises, I'd put as low as possible if it were me.