Simple Brewing est. 2009 : The build
- Thread starter Boerderij_Kabouter
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OhioBrewingTechnologies
Well-Known Member
It's a prototype, cut him some slack. Take a look at UL 916 or 60950-1. I don't know if either one covers liquid in the same chassis as wiring but they might. There may be a more appropriate safety standard for those. You can buy the docs for a few hundred bucks but if you're lucky your library will have them.
I'd be concerned about sheet metal thickness. At very rough glance looks like they want .056" thick for something that size.
Dan
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Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
snowrs- Thanks for the input and please don't be quiet! I love the feedback and the chance to make the design better. This is a prototype and we tried to save some cash with the wiring. Normally I would use stranded wire and green sheathed for the grounding plane.
All 20A service in the box is 12 AWG, any thing lower is 14 AWG and fused accordingly.
I realize that the male-to-male thing is not to code now. He may change that in the future and on any future builds I will definitely change that. However, he will not kill himself because of it... that is a bit silly. All he does is plug into the box first then the wall, problem solved. Also, unless you are wet or damp, 120 VAC shocks are scary but not really life threatening unless you have some other issue or some wicked bad luck.
I would be very interested in these box with liquid ratings if anyone can shine more light on it. Do I really qualify for that though? No liquid ever exits the pump within the enclosure.
Great feedback! Keep it coming!!!
All 20A service in the box is 12 AWG, any thing lower is 14 AWG and fused accordingly.
I realize that the male-to-male thing is not to code now. He may change that in the future and on any future builds I will definitely change that. However, he will not kill himself because of it... that is a bit silly. All he does is plug into the box first then the wall, problem solved. Also, unless you are wet or damp, 120 VAC shocks are scary but not really life threatening unless you have some other issue or some wicked bad luck.
I would be very interested in these box with liquid ratings if anyone can shine more light on it. Do I really qualify for that though? No liquid ever exits the pump within the enclosure.
Great feedback! Keep it coming!!!
OhioBrewingTechnologies
Well-Known Member
Well lookie here! Someone (by accident I hope) posted UL 499. Although this is for appliances that HEAT liquid, you can still get some ideas. Like section 11.3 saying even if liquid leaks, it better not be able to get to live parts.
There is a newer version of this standard than this, and there is probably a standard more applicable to what you are doing. Although it might apply to heating element.
www.dianyuan.com/bbs/u/42/1149554860.pdf
There is a newer version of this standard than this, and there is probably a standard more applicable to what you are doing. Although it might apply to heating element.
www.dianyuan.com/bbs/u/42/1149554860.pdf
Sweet build. I'm gonna build one just like it!
To get around the wet and shocky parts in one box, why not get two smaller toolboxes? Have all your wiring in one box and the pump in the other. You can get the controller farther away from the pump and closer to the couch.
CHANGE THE FEMALE INPUT. Sooner or later you're gonna zap yourself with that 120v cattle prod. I think HD has male inputs the exact same shape as the female ones you have on the box. It's a $5 change.
I like the logo, too.
B
To get around the wet and shocky parts in one box, why not get two smaller toolboxes? Have all your wiring in one box and the pump in the other. You can get the controller farther away from the pump and closer to the couch.
CHANGE THE FEMALE INPUT. Sooner or later you're gonna zap yourself with that 120v cattle prod. I think HD has male inputs the exact same shape as the female ones you have on the box. It's a $5 change.
I like the logo, too.
B
![Craft A Brew - Safale S-04 Dry Yeast - Fermentis - English Ale Dry Yeast - For English and American Ales and Hard Apple Ciders - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [1 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41fVGNh6JfL._SL500_.jpg)
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Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
So basically for production, the pump should be liquidly isolated from the wiring. Would I need a second fan in the pump enclosure and have the pump enclosure completely separate (i.e., hermetically sealed away from the wiring, or would I just need a barrier wall?
The wiring stuff I know about (save for the male-male plug thing). That I can work out on my own given the cash to do so.
I had a feeling the enclosure would be a sticking point in making this thing "to code".
The wiring stuff I know about (save for the male-male plug thing). That I can work out on my own given the cash to do so.
I had a feeling the enclosure would be a sticking point in making this thing "to code".
bendavanza
Well-Known Member
I would prefer to see the head of the pump on the outside of the electrical box like in the original illustrations. That would lower the chance of liquid in the box, the plastic head could break. And I agree with Bad Coffee, change the power input, just having a male to male cord lying around is trouble.
OhioBrewingTechnologies
Well-Known Member
You're going to want a separate ground connection to the top cover. The hinges can't be counted on for safety reasons. Being able to hinge it open means it's "field serviceable" which puts a whole new set of requirements on it. A trip to the library to grab 60950-1 could be worth the while.
About a year ago UL was working on a harmonized standard for temperature monitoring equipment. It wasn't due to be out in time for our purposes so I don't know the status. You might check UL website.
The PID is probably not FCC class B either. One guy calls FCC and says your box interferes with his TV and any money you haven't yet given to the gov't in taxes you'll give to them in fines. You may need a filter.
About a year ago UL was working on a harmonized standard for temperature monitoring equipment. It wasn't due to be out in time for our purposes so I don't know the status. You might check UL website.
The PID is probably not FCC class B either. One guy calls FCC and says your box interferes with his TV and any money you haven't yet given to the gov't in taxes you'll give to them in fines. You may need a filter.
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Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
Thanks! I am glad you like the idea. I can't take credit for the two vessel idea though and the 120VAC belongs to Jkarp.
I thought about the two box idea, but we thought the cool factor of the all-in-one unit was the best.
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Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
Me thinks I am finding why almost no electrical systems are available for retail purchase 
v2comp
Well-Known Member
I bought 6 of these from this guy a few months ago and even though I know the spirit in which you designed the toolbox, I would suggest you go this route instead and save yourself some unnecessary headaches.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ELECTROMATE-ENC...lectrical_Equipment_Tools?hash=item45efa73d0a
http://cgi.ebay.com/ELECTROMATE-ENC...lectrical_Equipment_Tools?hash=item45efa73d0a
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Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
I'll pass on the standard enclosure, but good link.
The box in no headache for me. Most of the discussion here deals with potential problems if this were to be sold commercially. It looks like way to much of a headache to be worth it to me. No homebrewer will be willing to pay for an industrial grade control panel premade. Anyone who cares enough about the codes will already know enough to build their own. I believe this thread has gone back to purely DIY for homebrewers.
The box in no headache for me. Most of the discussion here deals with potential problems if this were to be sold commercially. It looks like way to much of a headache to be worth it to me. No homebrewer will be willing to pay for an industrial grade control panel premade. Anyone who cares enough about the codes will already know enough to build their own. I believe this thread has gone back to purely DIY for homebrewers.
v2comp
Well-Known Member
no problem, I just tried something similar a few years ago and came to the same realization you did....lol
The three issues I really think need to be adressed before you put this to use are the male power plug, lack of ground fault, and the bare copper conductors. I can say for certain if you leave the wiring like it is with bare copper conductors hovering above hot and neutral biases that at some point you will have ground carrying large amounts of current.
The whole reason I first responded to this thread is I just sent one of my electricians to the hospital because he got shocked, He has been an electrician for 20 years but he made a mistake with a meter and it bit him. I design electrical control systems for automotive and tier one suppliers for a living. People do not treat 120VAC with the respect it deserves because they have all seen where a guy gets zapped and he jerks away and laughs. 120 can and will kill. Bare copper in with water potential and hovering above live buss bars is asking for trouble take my advice or not but I have seen this many times.
The whole reason I first responded to this thread is I just sent one of my electricians to the hospital because he got shocked, He has been an electrician for 20 years but he made a mistake with a meter and it bit him. I design electrical control systems for automotive and tier one suppliers for a living. People do not treat 120VAC with the respect it deserves because they have all seen where a guy gets zapped and he jerks away and laughs. 120 can and will kill. Bare copper in with water potential and hovering above live buss bars is asking for trouble take my advice or not but I have seen this many times.
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Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
The system is GFCI. It will be plugged into a GFCI outlet. For times when that is not available he has a point of use GFCI adapter.
I agree the bare copper is not ideal.
I agree the bare copper is not ideal.
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Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
Last night during Monday Night Football (Go Pack!), Jeremy and I cut the top off the first keg.
WOW!!!! There is a good 1/2" of solid rubber surrounding the keg. That is going to make for some great insulation!
:rockin:
I didn't have my camera with me, but I will shoot some shots when we do some more work this weekend.
WOW!!!! There is a good 1/2" of solid rubber surrounding the keg. That is going to make for some great insulation!
:rockin:
I didn't have my camera with me, but I will shoot some shots when we do some more work this weekend.
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Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
I still suck. I forgot my camera again. Anyway, element is installed, RTD is soldered in and working. Water is boiling!
Hopefully over the next week we will do some testing and I will remember my fooking camera.
Hopefully over the next week we will do some testing and I will remember my fooking camera.
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Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
How important is it for the element to be near the bottom of the boil volume? At this point, with 4 gallons in the kettle, the element is about 3 inches below the surface, or just above the middle of the volume.
Will the action from the boiling water thoroughly mix the wort? Or do we need to lower the element?
Will the action from the boiling water thoroughly mix the wort? Or do we need to lower the element?
wyzazz
Well-Known Member
Heat rises, I'd put as low as possible if it were me.
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Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
Yes, it is as low as possible. We could maybe make an extension somehow into the keg using elbows or soldered copper or something to get it lower, but it would be a pain in the ass. If it will be fine where it is, we would leave it.
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Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
Here is another question:
The system can boil 6+ gallons easily with the lid on. Once the lid comes off, the boil slows to nothing.
Can we put vent holes in the lid to allow steam to escape and heat to be retained during the boil? Or do we need a full opening on top to allow the maximum volatiles to be driven off?
Alternatively, what about a fan mounted in the lid that would "suck" steam out of the boil?
Any input????
The system can boil 6+ gallons easily with the lid on. Once the lid comes off, the boil slows to nothing.
Can we put vent holes in the lid to allow steam to escape and heat to be retained during the boil? Or do we need a full opening on top to allow the maximum volatiles to be driven off?
Alternatively, what about a fan mounted in the lid that would "suck" steam out of the boil?
Any input????
Budzu
Well-Known Member
Hi BK,
You don't want to cover the boil at all if possible, anything that condensates and drips back in is not only water but all the crap you don't want.
And the fan idea will probably slow the boil even more than removing the cover such as you did, since it will be transferring outside (cool) air across the wort surface.
Have you tried insulating the kettle? If not, I'm sure that would help you a great deal. Edit: oh yeah they are already insulated with rubber eh. Is the bottom also rubber? You could insulate that if not for some heat boost.
You don't want to cover the boil at all if possible, anything that condensates and drips back in is not only water but all the crap you don't want.
And the fan idea will probably slow the boil even more than removing the cover such as you did, since it will be transferring outside (cool) air across the wort surface.
Have you tried insulating the kettle? If not, I'm sure that would help you a great deal. Edit: oh yeah they are already insulated with rubber eh. Is the bottom also rubber? You could insulate that if not for some heat boost.
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Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
The full keg is rubberized. Bottom, top, and sides.
Others have run tests and found that the max you can boil with these 120VAC elements is about 5g. We were just trying to push it a bit further. Maybe it won't work...
Others have run tests and found that the max you can boil with these 120VAC elements is about 5g. We were just trying to push it a bit further. Maybe it won't work...
Budzu
Well-Known Member
Is the rubber feeling anyway warm on the outside during a boil? I wonder how much insulation you are getting from it.. If its warm or hot, you may be able to retain heat better by removing it and replacing with a better insulator.
Surely there's a solution!
Surely there's a solution!
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Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
O.K. I FINALLY remembered my camera.
Kegglishious:
Here is a shot of the heating element:
You can see how thick the rubber is:
On the exterior, we drill a pilot hole, then use a hole saw to cut a large plug out of the rubber without cutting into the stainless. We remove that plug to reveal clean stainless, then cut our holes for mounting components. It will look really clean and nice once we get everything done and can clean up details.
Kegglishious:
Here is a shot of the heating element:
You can see how thick the rubber is:
On the exterior, we drill a pilot hole, then use a hole saw to cut a large plug out of the rubber without cutting into the stainless. We remove that plug to reveal clean stainless, then cut our holes for mounting components. It will look really clean and nice once we get everything done and can clean up details.
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Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
We also mounted the pick up and return for the BK.
.................................
Here is the chiller:
It is 20' of 1/2" copper with soldered uprights. As you can see, most of the coil goes below the element. We bent the chiller so there is a gap at the height of the element so a space is formed around the element. It slips in and out of the kettle easily.
We then cut matching holes in the lid so the chiller sits comfortably during use. The stirrer will go in the center of the chiller coils below the element.
That is the progress so far. Jeremy should be getting his stand this weekend, along with some more project time!!!
:rockin:
.................................
Here is the chiller:
It is 20' of 1/2" copper with soldered uprights. As you can see, most of the coil goes below the element. We bent the chiller so there is a gap at the height of the element so a space is formed around the element. It slips in and out of the kettle easily.
We then cut matching holes in the lid so the chiller sits comfortably during use. The stirrer will go in the center of the chiller coils below the element.
That is the progress so far. Jeremy should be getting his stand this weekend, along with some more project time!!!
:rockin:
CodeRage
Death by Magumba!
Looks good BK.
As far as boiling. I think you may be pushing it a bit with that element. The rubber coating may not be insulating it very much at all due to thermal conduction. Some Reflectix wrapped twice will give you at least R10. I know some folks have found some better stuff from grainer/mcmaster that is a little pricier.
Putting the lid will help you get the wort up to boiling much quicker, but once you boil the lid needs to come off. Once it does get to boil, and the lid is off will it maintain a light boil? ie there is some movement on the surface of the water, not much. If so then that is all you need. Otherwise, a larger element is in your future, there is really no way around it.
PS. You get those control panel bits I sent yah?
As far as boiling. I think you may be pushing it a bit with that element. The rubber coating may not be insulating it very much at all due to thermal conduction. Some Reflectix wrapped twice will give you at least R10. I know some folks have found some better stuff from grainer/mcmaster that is a little pricier.
Putting the lid will help you get the wort up to boiling much quicker, but once you boil the lid needs to come off. Once it does get to boil, and the lid is off will it maintain a light boil? ie there is some movement on the surface of the water, not much. If so then that is all you need. Otherwise, a larger element is in your future, there is really no way around it.
PS. You get those control panel bits I sent yah?
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Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
Yeah we can't push it to a full 6g boil. Jkarp knew his stuff... 5g boils just fine. It gets up to a boil super quick with the lid on and maintains a nice rolling boil with the lid off.
4g final batch is just fine with Jeremy and that is what the system was designed for in the first place anyway.
I did get the indicators! Thanks!!!
4g final batch is just fine with Jeremy and that is what the system was designed for in the first place anyway.
I did get the indicators! Thanks!!!
psbrewing
Member
I just want to say that I think that this is an awesome system that I would love make someday. I realize though reading all the posts that there seem to be a number of issues that have been addressed with the system. Any advice on these would be greatly appreciated.
1. Could the issue with the pump being located with the electronics be solved by using a similar bucket system as seen in jkarps https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f85/countertop-brutus-20-a-131096/
Then still use a similar control panel. While you would have two separate items that you would have to carry it would eliminate the "what if it leaks" question.
I would also like to add an inline aerator to the system.
2. As you stated it is difficult to maintain a constant boil when you have over 6 gallons. Thus what if I designed my system to have two different heating elements. A low profile propane burner under the HLT/brewpot with an electric element also attached for precision when using the RIMS? I am thinking of it as a ghetto version of the SABCO...with not all the cost? Thanks for the great ideas...
1. Could the issue with the pump being located with the electronics be solved by using a similar bucket system as seen in jkarps https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f85/countertop-brutus-20-a-131096/
Then still use a similar control panel. While you would have two separate items that you would have to carry it would eliminate the "what if it leaks" question.
I would also like to add an inline aerator to the system.
2. As you stated it is difficult to maintain a constant boil when you have over 6 gallons. Thus what if I designed my system to have two different heating elements. A low profile propane burner under the HLT/brewpot with an electric element also attached for precision when using the RIMS? I am thinking of it as a ghetto version of the SABCO...with not all the cost? Thanks for the great ideas...
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Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
I am hoping to address the liquid separation issue soon with my brewery which will be the same design. I will detail that when I get to it.
You could use a burner, it is up to you.
I can't wait to start my build!!! ahhhh!!!!!! I have to be a responsible dad/husband first though and make sure we have the cash to pay for our property taxes before I can spend my brewery egg... It is making me crazy!!!!
You could use a burner, it is up to you.
I can't wait to start my build!!! ahhhh!!!!!! I have to be a responsible dad/husband first though and make sure we have the cash to pay for our property taxes before I can spend my brewery egg... It is making me crazy!!!!
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Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
Updates:
Jeremy had some time this week and has almost finished. He doesn't have another rubber keg yet, so the bare stainless will work for now. Pretty sexy...
In other news, I have all my parts for the control panel and will hopefully start assembly this weekend. :rockin:
Jeremy had some time this week and has almost finished. He doesn't have another rubber keg yet, so the bare stainless will work for now. Pretty sexy...
In other news, I have all my parts for the control panel and will hopefully start assembly this weekend. :rockin:
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Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
More:
Stirrer:
Assembled:
Stirrer:
Assembled:
leboeuf
Well-Known Member
Really nice!
Your vision is really coming together.
Your vision is really coming together.
JOHN51277
Well-Known Member
This is one awesome project! You guys are doing some amazing work. Keep it up. I can't wait to see the thing in its final stage!
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Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
I would like to get everyone's thoughts...
Should I start a new thread for my build? It is the same basic premise, but with some changes... it is single tier with two pumps and will have a RIMS in addition to the HERMS.
So new thread, or tack-on?
Should I start a new thread for my build? It is the same basic premise, but with some changes... it is single tier with two pumps and will have a RIMS in addition to the HERMS.
So new thread, or tack-on?
wyzazz
Well-Known Member
+1 on starting a new thread! Can't ever have enough project threads!
Budzu
Well-Known Member
Another build? Wowsa, I haven't even quite finished my first, based on your design. I hope you will be using ideas from your dual coil/pump whirlpool ideas? I don't have copper tubing or bulkheads worked out yet, so I'll be interested to see what is evolving in your head.
Cheers BK! awesome work all around!
Cheers BK! awesome work all around!
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Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
Budzu- I actually sold my other rig and am going to build another similar to the Simple Brewery. I love the other design (DITCHES), and plan to build it again in the future. But for what I sold my rig for I can completely build this smaller brewery and have something great to brew on while I accumulate parts for the big 10g system again.
I will start a new thread when I have some time to assemble everything.
I will start a new thread when I have some time to assemble everything.
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