Side by Side Comparo - I Lose

[Mugsfull]

My friend and I did a side by side comparison of an IPA we both made; my recipe, all grain. We used the same type of water. Our equipment and process differs. Bottom line I lost and I'm soul searching. His was clear and crisp, no aftertaste. Mine was cloudy, sweeter, with a lingering almost cloying mouthfeel. It was good, but the body seemed too full. I put mine down and went for the other.
Before I go further. I'll embarrass myself by saying I've been at this 4 years. I started with Mr. Beer, then lots of extract beers, then partial mash, read John Palmer, joined HomeBrewTalk, got Beersmith and finally a 5 gallon mash tun. I've done more than 10 all grain batches. You could say I'm on the typical career path.
My friend? Not so much. He tasted one of my beers, I explained the process. He had a turkey fryer and a pot. He brewed. He won.
I want my beers to be more like his and I may have to get a Propane Burner to do so. But here's the key differences.
My friend did a brew in a bag. In a 8 gallon pot over the propane burner, mashed at 152, stirring off and on. Not sure how he lifted the 10 lb grain bag and sparged. Then boiled hard for an hour. Somehow cooled in a big tub ice bath and added one gallon of almost frozen top off water. fermented around 67F.
Now for me, and I know this is gonna sound bad because I know better. I'm on the stove top. So I mashed in my cooler, 160 strike, 150 mash; 1 hour no peek. Fly sparging collecting 6 gallons. Here's where it gets shifty. I have only a 4 gallon pot. and another 3 gallon pot. So I boiled two pots( I know, I know). I have a powerful gas stove so I do get a hot break - in both pots haha. I cool in an ice bath. Fermented 3 weeks at 63F.
I didn't realize how much different beers could be given the same ingredients. Although my beers are all good, some great, I just think his final product was 'Better'. I know that's a vague term, but it was clearer, lighter in body, cleaner in mouthfeel and finish.
I'm thinking it had to be the mash and boil process that produced the differences. I know I need a burner and pot. Does anybody recall going from stove top to burner and getting significantly different results? What about BIAB, stirring over heat vs Cooler mash?
BTW Happy New Years Brewers!

 

[mdbrewer1]

D'oh. I re-read and saw the part about the fermentation temp. and time. Do you know if he did the same?

Can you share how each of you prepared your yeast?

 

[Mugsfull]

He did room temp - 67. I did a temp controlled fridge. We both used SAF 05.

 

[giraffe]

Did you both hit the same OG? Is yours a 1.078 mistake of a recipe while his had terrible efficiency and made a much better version at 1.055? Did your beer attenuate fully? Clearer is worrisome, do you calculate mash ph?

 

[mdbrewer1]

He did room temp - 67. I did a temp controlled fridge. We both used SAF 05.

The higher fermentation temperature might explain some of it.

While 3 weeks sounds like it should have been enough time to clear both beers, his higher fermentation might have helped clear his a little faster.

I'd suggest raising your temperatures up from 63 after the first week or so to help drop out anything left in suspension. It also helps allow the yeast to "clean up" after themselves, which might have had an effect on the crispness and difference in aftertaste.

Given the same ingredients, a difference in sweetness might be explained by a difference in mash temperatures or perhaps low attenuation. Since your mash temps look to be fairly close, especially since his likely dropped closer to yours due to opening and stirring, I'd lean towards the latter. Do you know the OG and FG of each beer?

 

[Mugsfull]

My OG was 1.069 - my final was about 1.002. I was surprised how well it attenuated. There was no measurements on the other. Now that you mention it. There may be significant gravity differences and ABV.

 

[beersk]

Also, are both versions kegged, have they been sitting at the same temperature (if kegged), and if bottled, have they both been in the bottle for the same amount of time and how long spent cold after carbonating?
How about final gravities, how do they compare? Same water and same ingredients but drastically different beers points me to process. Fermentation could be part of it, crush/efficiency could be another, final gravity will also have an effect.

I don't think BIAB will give you better beer and I doubt boiling in 2 separate pots is really the issue. And stirring while adding heat is sketchy because it can create hot spots which will denature some enzymes, potentially hurting your final gravity. I know because I've had this issue myself when doing brews in a bag while adding direct heat.

 

[Foosier]

I am an advocate of BIAB and love the process, but I cannot see how BIAB by itself would produce the difference you tasted. I agree that there has to be an issue in the process somewhere. I agree fermentation and carbonation would seem to be likely areas where the differences could be creaping in.

 

[Mugsfull]

We both bottled and stored for 3 weeks. Both were dry hopped. The aroma is nearly the same in both. Both have significant bitterness. I should have taken a photo. Mine is deeper copper colored, with a cloudy, chill haze. Looks great, but side by side - his is sharper, clearer.

 

[zeptrey]

Your final was 1.002 and it tasted sweet even cloying? What are you using to measure gravity?

2 Pots can screw with your ibus causing your beer not to have the same bitterness, but the biggest thing i saw in your system was the no peek while mashing. You need to stir that bad boy to help keep the temp consistent through out your mash tun. You don't have to do it so often that you lose a bunch of heat but I do it about every 10-15 minutes or so when I break out my cooler mash tun.

Yeast preperation and temp control are big helps. I agree with upping the temp on fermentation too.

 

[agrazela]

My OG was 1.069 - my final was about 1.002. I was surprised how well it attenuated. There was no measurements on the other. Now that you mention it. There may be significant gravity differences and ABV.

FG was 1.002? Or did you mean 1.020?

If truly 1.002 (and that would be like 97% AA), it's hard to imagine how you are perceiving much body from that.

If actually 1.020 (71% AA), your story makes a lot more sense to me.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Were both bottles cold conditioned for the same amount of time? There are so many variables going here, the brewing BIAB vs cooler MT split boil is only a small part of the process.

 

[Rev2010]

but the biggest thing i saw in your system was the no peek while mashing. You need to stir that bad boy to help keep the temp consistent through out your mash tun. You don't have to do it so often that you lose a bunch of heat but I do it about every 10-15 minutes or so when I break out my cooler mash tun.

Sorry, but that is simply not true. I used to stir my mash twice over the one hour but many on here said it's not necessary and that it's not worth the temp loss so I switched. Haven't noticed not even the slightest difference whatsoever outside of no more temp loss from opening and stirring. You only need the initial really good stir then seal it up and leave it alone for the duration of the mash.


Rev.

 

[zeptrey]

Sorry, but that is simply not true. I used to stir my mash twice over the one hour but many on here said it's not necessary and that it's not worth the temp loss so I switched. Haven't noticed not even the slightest difference whatsoever outside of no more temp loss from opening and stirring. You only need the initial really good stir then seal it up and leave it alone for the duration of the mash.


Rev.

Depends, but I shouldn't have said that was the biggest issue...but consistent temps throughout a mash is pretty darn important. What I should have said from the details laid out is to make the process as simple as possible. The difference between OP's steps and OP's buddies steps are from my point of view is simplicity, ferm temp and gravity readings. 1.020 would make sense if beer is pretty sweet.

 

[Rev2010]

The difference between OP's steps and OP's buddies steps are from my point of view is simplicity, ferm temp and gravity readings. 1.020 would make sense if beer is pretty sweet.

I agree with these extra points, just stating that you simply do not need to open and stir the mash over the mash duration. Give it a really good initial mix, take temp, and if your temp is hit seal it up and leave it alone. Try it out for yourself some time, you'll see.

@OP - first, take a deep breath and try to not be so hard on yourself. I know it can suck if you've been brewing for a long time and a newbie makes a beer that bests yours, but this is a one time event at this point. Who knows, maybe if you made another beer yours would be better. That said, there are clearly many ways you can improve your brewing. Split batches on the stove top work great for many people, but it's not an ideal setup. Ice bath chilling is also not ideal. Perhaps go over his place and brew a beer together on his equipment and see how it comes out.

There are so many variables to the brewing process it's hard to diagnose why yours wasn't as good as his from a computer screen in another state. All I can say is, once you get the non-ideal processes moved over to more preferred processes your beer will be far better. IMO, most of my beer is commercial (craft) quality at this point with some still needing some work. Going to full volume boils, better chilling methods, pH control, fermentation temp control (I still don't have that however), etc will all improve a beer.

So, few questions, as others have asked, are you sure that FG was 1.002? That would lead to a thin dry beer with a higher alcohol content, not a sweet beer. Just doesn't make sense. Second, the cloudiness... personally IMO an IPA looks more appealing hazy than clear, like this pic:

Now again, that's personal opinion. But, some factors that might affect chill haze is your cooling method. Even though you both did the same perhaps he cooled his faster? Also, are you vorlaufing until your wort runs clear? I used to vorlauf just until I stopped seeing large grain bits but the wort was still mostly cloudy. Now I vorlauf more times till it's clear and my beer is now much much clearer than it ever was. Yeast can also of course make a beer cloudy, but you used the same yeast and you say storage temps and such were identical?


Rev.